Conservatism

[Pwnemon]

So I was going to make this thread and then I forgot and then Blastoise and TES in the forum members thread reminded me so here goes. I've seen a lot of misconceptions about conservatives and republicans on this forum and I just wanted to sort of lay out my views clear and simple.

1) I am NOT against /all/ change.

I fully realize that the world was not perfect back in 1776. In fact, conservatives have been some of the staunchest supporters of change in the past! It's just nowadays, with progressives trying to change toward the left, that I'm in opposition. Given the chance Republicans have as many ideas for reform as Democrats, it's just that with a full democratic majority we're too busy trying to stop leftist change to enact rightwing change. The name conservative does not come from conserving what has been in the past, it comes from conservatively sized government.

2) I am NOT a racist!

I've seen multiple times people say when I bring up a point, "Oh yes he wants to rewind the clock, to where blacks are slaves and he's rich lol!" This IS NOT true! Wilson, however, WAS a racist. If you want a good history of past race issues in the US:

1854: The Republican party is founded as a response to the Kansas-Nebraska Act. Its goal to prevent the spread of slavery, one of its mottoes, "Free Soil."

1860: Southern Democrats, so unwilling to compromise their slavery, split from Northern Democrats to form their own party and run a pro-slavery candidate.

Abraham Lincoln runs on a platform of preventing the spread of slavery and wins, the first Republican to be elected President. The south is so afraid that he'll abolish slavery they secede from the Union, forming their own government. While modeled off the US, it promises to protect slavery in any territories it may acquire.

1865: The North wins the Civil War. The same year, Republicans push and ratify the thirteenth amendment, making slavery illegal.

1870: Hiram Revels, the first Black Senator ever elected, is a Republican.

1913: Woodrow Wilson is elected. He segregates the navy and fires many Africans in the White House.

1965: The Civil Rights Act, passed after a 44 hour Filibuster by Democratic Senator Robert Byrd, gets 80% of Republican votes and 64% of Democrat votes.

2008: Republicans dislike Obama for his policies.

Also, that's an example of when conservatives have pushed change.

3) I don't get in bed with fat-cat wall streeters.

Everyone says that the bailout was under bush, and the economy tanked under bush, but um not really. That would be the equivalent of me saying DADT was under Clinton. The CONGRESS is what makes the laws, and the democrats have controlled Congress since 2007. The first bailout was under Democrats. The economy tanked under Democrats. And need I say that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were both signed into law under Democrats? Democrat bailouts have actually been going on since the midnineties. First were the mexican, bonds, then the Southeast Asian Bonds, and the Russian bonds too. In fact, Goldman Sachs donated just under one million dollars to Obama's campaign in 08.

Now that I have those three things out of the way, what I believe in:

-I believe that the constitution is not a "living" document.

The founders intended the constitution to be the constant rule of law and to shape all of Congress's laws. Otherwise, they wouldn't have added an amendment section, could we interpret it as we saw fit.

-I believe that too much government stifles the economy rather than helping it.

There's some like six minute video about the Rahn Curve. It details how the economy grows best when the government is just present enough to ensure basic liberties but not to intrude and regulate much.

-I believe that private enterprise works better at nearly ANY job than government.

Part 2, nuff said.

-I believe that government is a monopoly and nonchalant.

Part 1. I know I messed up the order.

-I believe that the government is firmly limited to its duties in the constitution, nothing more, due to the ninth and tenth amendments.

If I forgot anything I will likely post it later.

 

[Adriane]

You're assuming conservative = Republican and liberal = Democrat.

I kind of hate both parties.

 

[Pwnemon]

Okay, while that is a very loose assumption, liberals tend to be in the Democrat party, while conservatives are in the Republican party.

 

[1. Luftballon]

dems and reps are both conservative.

 

[Phantom]

You are making a thread about conservatism, yet you seem to be only defending yourself. Sorry but if this thread going to be about conservatism then I want to hear about that, seriously I could care less for what you believe, give me points about that.

Yes, you are assuming. Also Democrats and Republicans switched.

The Republican Party only came into existance in the 1850's because the Democratic Party and Whig Party refused to abolish slavery or adopt progressive platforms. The Republican Party, at it outset, was EXTREMELY liberal. It remained pretty progressive right up until the early 1900's. Teddy Roosevelt, the last liberal Republican president, decided to run against the Republican nominee in 1912 because he felt the nominee wasn't liberal enough. Beginning around that time, Republicans began to align more with the wealthy. Up until the 1960's the Democratic party had 2 branches - the very conservative racist Southern faction and the liberal northern faction. When liberal Democrats and Republicans pushed through Civil Rights laws in the 60's, southern Democrats bolted the party and voted for George Wallace, a racist governor, rather than the Democratic nominee. Nixon capitalized on the division in the Democratic Party and won in 68 & 72 by pulling conservative southern Democrats into Republican ranks. The flip was made complete by Ronald Reagan, who's stated support for 'states rights' was pretty much a code word for racist southerners who opposed school integration and black voting rights.

It wasn't until the conservative southern Democrats bailed on the Democratic party that the Democratic Party became THE liberal party, and the Republican Party THE conservative party.


Also, please take an APUSH class.


Oh and before you go ranting about how liberals are attacking you, I am moderate.

 

[Superbird]

Oh good god. WHY.

Okay, so. Have you reat The Giver, Pwnemon? Read it, and interpert it. I think that kind of government is the kind you would deem "ideal". In act, I'm liberal, and I even consider it ideal. Communism at its finest.

I don't see anything wrong with your opinions, and I almost always see your reasons for your opinions. Even though I usually disagree.

I've been told that I'm someone who can see both sides of an argument very easily.

 

[Phantom]

EDIT: I got ninja'd by Charizard2K. Echoing everything they said.

Sorry about that, it seems we were attacking our keyboards at the same time.. Well, doubly noted then.

I already disbelieve you.
The worst way to prove that you are not a racist is trying to prove that you are not a racist.

You live in a racist society. It is inevitable that you will assimilate some of that racism. It happens with sexism, classism, homophobia, ablism... We all have racist beliefs. The question is whether we are willing to acknowledge them and, more importantly, change them. Saying "I am not a racist" is denial, pure and simple. And the more someone says "I am not a racist because
a) I have black/Asian/Hispanic/whatever friends
b) I have never treated anyone differently based on their race ever
c) I'm colorblind
d) all of the above,"
the more obvious it is.

Like a kid standing next to the window that had been smashed, upon asking them what happened the first thing they say is, "I didn't do it," that's when you know what happened.


I'm not racist because I have a black friend... woop de doo for you.

The fact that you recognise them first as black then as a friend, or the first adjective or any adjective you use to describe them is black is racist. Face it....

Everybody's a little bit racist. Some more than others.

 

[1. Luftballon]

don't use US politics as examples. there are no significant liberals anymore.

 

[Flora]

honestly, my first thought when reading the top of this was "jesus, his entire argument is showing that he's not a racist by showing that the democrats are."

-I believe that the constitution is not a "living" document.

The founders intended the constitution to be the constant rule of law and to shape all of Congress's laws. Otherwise, they wouldn't have added an amendment section, could we interpret it as we saw fit.

I thought the elastic clause had something to do with this, but apparently not?

This opinion, IMO, is ridiculous. We need to interpret it as we see fit; there's technologies today that Jefferson wouldn't have even dreamed of. If the Constitution isn't to be interpreted, how do we know whether free speech applies on the internet? How the hell does the Supreme Court do their job if they can't interpret the Constitution?

Everyone says that the bailout was under bush, and the economy tanked under bush, but um not really. That would be the equivalent of me saying DADT was under Clinton. The CONGRESS is what makes the laws, and the democrats have controlled Congress since 2007.

Actually, I've seen a few political cartoons that seem to imply that the national debt is Obama's fault, which is kinda funny cause it only went up $2 trillion during his presidency, compared to the $11 trillion that had already existed. And, in case you missed something during history class, yes, Congress makes the laws, but don't forget that the President has to approve them. Yes, the Congress can override his veto, but this doesn't happen all that much.

 

[Phantom]

don't use US politics as examples. there are no significant liberals anymore.

lol, agreed, but since he is American... yeah. Plus sorry I have to use that, I simply know more about that about my own country.

I thought the elastic clause had something to do with this, but apparently not?

Yeah it does.

 

[Pwnemon]

You are making a thread about conservatism, yet you seem to be only defending yourself. Sorry but if this thread going to be about conservatism then I want to hear about that, seriously I could care less for what you believe, give me points about that.

Yes, you are assuming. Also Democrats and Republicans switched.

The Republican Party only came into existance in the 1850's because the Democratic Party and Whig Party refused to abolish slavery or adopt progressive platforms. The Republican Party, at it outset, was EXTREMELY liberal. It remained pretty progressive right up until the early 1900's. Teddy Roosevelt, the last liberal Republican president, decided to run against the Republican nominee in 1912 because he felt the nominee wasn't liberal enough. Beginning around that time, Republicans began to align more with the wealthy. Up until the 1960's the Democratic party had 2 branches - the very conservative racist Southern faction and the liberal northern faction. When liberal Democrats and Republicans pushed through Civil Rights laws in the 60's, southern Democrats bolted the party and voted for George Wallace, a racist governor, rather than the Democratic nominee. Nixon capitalized on the division in the Democratic Party and won in 68 & 72 by pulling conservative southern Democrats into Republican ranks. The flip was made complete by Ronald Reagan, who's stated support for 'states rights' was pretty much a code word for racist southerners who opposed school integration and black voting rights.

It wasn't until the conservative southern Democrats bailed on the Democratic party that the Democratic Party became THE liberal party, and the Republican Party THE conservative party.


Also, please take an APUSH class.


Oh and before you go ranting about how liberals are attacking you, I am moderate.

Yes yes I realize that the democrats were all the conservatives and shtuff but the flip happened earlier than for when you give it credit. I place the swap at Wilson. He was a progressive. Following came Harding and Coolidge and Hoover, conservative republicans. Next, FDR, a liberal democrat. There was an exception in Truman, but then Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson follow this pattern as well.

Also, even the "liberal" republicans back then would rank no higher than "moderate" nowadays. And it's sort of funny that you say "States' rights" was some sort of code word. Thomas Jefferson created the idea of States Rights. Did you know that the original declaration of independence had a whole clause full of rage against slavery?

honestly, my first thought when reading the top of this was "jesus, his entire argument is showing that he's not a racist by showing that the democrats are."

I thought the elastic clause had something to do with this, but apparently not?

If you read the elastic clause instead of saying "Elastic clause lol" the way Congress says "Commerce clause lol," you would see that it says they can do whatever they see fit to perform the duties given above.

This opinion, IMO, is ridiculous. We need to interpret it as we see fit; there's technologies today that Jefferson wouldn't have even dreamed of. If the Constitution isn't to be interpreted, how do we know whether free speech applies on the internet? How the hell does the Supreme Court do their job if they can't interpret the Constitution?

They should interpret it. You can't get by without interpretation. But they should interpret it strictly. We want freedom of speech. Everywhere, including the internet. We want the right to bear arms. All the time. We can't interpret it as we see fit. The founders wrote, "The right to bear arms shall not be abridged." They didn't put, "Except if there's lots of crime in a city or they only ban automatic weapons."

Actually, I've seen a few political cartoons that seem to imply that the national debt is Obama's fault, which is kinda funny cause it only went up $2 trillion during his presidency, compared to the $11 trillion that had already existed. And, in case you missed something during history class, yes, Congress makes the laws, but don't forget that the President has to approve them. Yes, the Congress can override his veto, but this doesn't happen all that much.

Actually, I've seen a few political cartoons for everything known to man. And George Bush Jr. was not a very conservative president, in case you missed something. You know, the same way Bill didn't veto DADT?

Sorry about that, it seems we were attacking our keyboards at the same time.. Well, doubly noted then.



Like a kid standing next to the window that had been smashed, upon asking them what happened the first thing they say is, "I didn't do it," that's when you know what happened.


I'm not racist because I have a black friend... woop de doo for you.

The fact that you recognise them first as black then as a friend, or the first adjective or any adjective you use to describe them is black is racist. Face it....

Everybody's a little bit racist. Some more than others.

Using this logic, C2K, you would be racist for implying that my despise of Obama is race-based.

Furthermore, I refuse to stand around while you guys have called me racist in the past. This isn't a kid standing next to a broken store window. This is the innocent teen tried in court. Otherwise, using your logic, standing up for yourself in the face of accusation automatically proves guilt.

 

[Pwnemon]

Since the multiquote button didn't seem to include you:

I already disbelieve you.
The worst way to prove that you are not a racist is trying to prove that you are not a racist.

So everybody is a racist then. YOURE A FREAKING RACIST AND IF YOU TRY TO OPPOSE THIS IT JUST PROVES YOU RACIST LOL.

You live in a racist society. It is inevitable that you will assimilate some of that racism. It happens with sexism, classism, homophobia, ablism... We all have racist beliefs. The question is whether we are willing to acknowledge them and, more importantly, change them. Saying "I am not a racist" is denial, pure and simple. And the more someone says "I am not a racist because
a) I have black/Asian/Hispanic/whatever friends
b) I have never treated anyone differently based on their race ever
c) I'm colorblind
d) all of the above,"
the more obvious it is.

Did I give any of those arguments? No. Do I acknowledge whatever "racist tendencies" you say I soak up? No. Thank you.

Don't think of this as a liberal vs conservative issue, by the way. There is definitely a lot of racism among liberals. It's not cross-burning obvious, but it's there. I don't think liberals are not racists.

Since when do all liberals support every democrat? There are plenty of Democratic presidents that have done things I disagree with. I'm certain you have disagreed with the actions of Republicans as well. Don't commit the fallacy of thinking that all liberals support all Democrats, or even that liberals support Democrats (I know plenty of liberals that are disappointed with Democrats and identify as Independent or some third party).

That's because up until Franklin D. Roosevelt was president, the Democrats were the conservatives and the Republicans were the liberals. The Democrats only started to look like modern democrats after the 1940s. In the 1860s, the Democrats were the ones who were against federal intervention, who were all for states' rights... things that the modern Republican party supports.

The two parties' names have not changed, but they have changed their political stances: Republicans have become more conservative whereas Democrats have become more liberal (notice how Southerners are always more conservative: the Democrats used to be very popular among Southerners. In the 50s, iirc, they started favoring the Republican party because the Democrats were too liberal.)

tl;dr: the Republican party of today is not the same Republican party of the 1800s. The Democratic party of today is not the same Democratic party of the 1800s. You cannot speak of what Democrats and Republicans did without putting it in context, and the context here states that Democrats used to be the more conservative party.



It's important to note that at this point there were still a significant portion of Southern Democrats that were significantly more conservative than the other Democrats. Let's break it down by region. The South has always been much more conservative than the North and, as I said earlier, has had ideals which matches those of modern conservative Republicans. The labels "republican" and "democrat" obfuscate actual political leanings considering that the parties have changed their leanings over time. Let's see the real story:

The House Version: Yea - nay
Southern Democrats: 7–87 (7%–93%)
Southern Republicans: 0–10 (0%–100%)
Northern Democrats: 145-9 (94%–6%)
Northern Republicans: 138-24 (85%–15%)
The Senate version:
Southern Democrats: 1–20 (5%–95%)
Southern Republicans: 0–1 (0%–100%)
Northern Democrats: 45-1 (98%–2%)
Northern Republicans: 27-5 (84%–16%)

We can see that both Southern Democrats and Southern Republicans were totally against the bill. It is thanks to the Northerners that the bill passed. Guess which region is more liberal and which one is more conservative.

EDIT: I got ninja'd by Charizard2K. Echoing everything they said.

Okay, I'll just admit that I was reaching pretty far on all of what I said about the whole racism issue. But I was just so sick and freaking tired of being called racist on this forum it almost made me want to scream.

I've gone over this before so I'm not going to touch on this again. All I will say is that there is a racial undercurrent to this hatred of Obama.

If you can just claim this, then there is a racial undercurrent in the hatred of the republican party, because Michael Steele is the RNC chair. You can't deny it, that just proves you racist.

National Defense? Building roads?

I have other things to do so I can't respond to the other things. I only got the things that were glaringly obvious.

Almost?

 

[Flora]

If you read the elastic clause instead of saying "Elastic clause lol" the way Congress says "Commerce clause lol," you would see that it says they can do whatever they see fit to perform the duties given above.

Actually, I wasn't saying "Elastic clause lol", i was simply saying that i thought it had something to do with it but was proven wrong. (I did, in fact, read the elastic clause, by the way)

Actually, I've seen a few political cartoons for everything known to man. And George Bush Jr. was not a very conservative president, in case you missed something. You know, the same way Bill didn't veto DADT?

the point of pointing out the political cartoon was to point out that, you know, not everyone blames this whole thing on Bush. (also, for the record, DADT was technically instituted so that you couldn't force someone to admit their sexuality if they wished it to remain private, and discharging soldiers due to homosexuality's been going on since the Revolution, so it's not like DADT started it. And besides, it sets rules for this so that you kinda have to have evidence)

 

[1. Luftballon]

[snip]

GOOD JOB, YOU PAID ATTENTION TO WHAT THEY WERE SAYING ...

 

[brandman]

Damn, what did I just get done saying to you Pwnemon?!?

Shit, I hate these arguments. They lead to NOWHERE. Why do people continue on? Yes, actually, the likes of Charizard2K and ... are correct; the parties have literately switched. Though today's modern age, liberal and conservative go both ways. Yes, our country is getting screwed up. Okay, well does it concern you to start an argument where you try to defend yourself? Most what you say I agree, but you've got to look both ways, not just stuck in one mindframe. And I have read the Giver, that example of communism is horrible. It is perfect one way, but you give up about everything cherished in society. Why? In. The. Hell. Would you want that? Animal Farm hit how communism works, despite him being a socialist (ironic right?). Oh, before I go, Ignore people who call you racist, its their way of trying to get back at you of your way of thinking. EVERYONE, has racism in them, that doesn't necessarily mean you have a lot.

 

[Dark Shocktail]

On the topic of racism - everyone's just a little bit racist. Hell, it's accepted in Britain that everyone involved (The Scots, the English, the Welsh and the Irish) all hate each other to some degree. It's arguably one of the basis' of our humour - take a bite out of everyone and don't complain when you get bitten back.

 

[shy ♡]

Everyone's a little bit racist. It's not like we go around committing hate crimes.

 

[brandman]

On the topic of racism - everyone's just a little bit racist. Hell, it's accepted in Britain that everyone involved (The Scots, the English, the Welsh and the Irish) all hate each other to some degree. It's arguably one of the basis' of our humour - take a bite out of everyone and don't complain when you get bitten back.

I believe that's about everywhere. At least it's here also in the UnItEd StAtEs. Take it lightly. I mean, who cares really what they say about you. Flick 'em off if your pissed really bad. :D

 

[Dark Shocktail]

I believe that's about everywhere. At least it's here also in the UnItEd StAtEs. Take it lightly. I mean, who cares really what they say about you. Flick 'em off if your pissed really bad. :D

Exactly! Live and let live and all that cool, smooth jazz. And Pentimento, you legend. That's what was playing in my head when I was talking about everyone hating everyone xD

 

[Pwnemon]

Okay, so I do participate in my share of racist jokes. But my despise of Obama is not because I'm racist. And those are just for fun. Like the British situation.

Anyway, I've made more points than just about my not-racism.