Is it necessary for a trans* person to transition?

[ultraviolet]

TIt seems like the most appropriate place to ask, honestly. I mean, it is already a discussion about trans* people being held by trans* people, if a cis reader has a question about something a trans* person states why not add to the discussion?

well, that's why there was a gender thread, but nobody uses it so. :B

 

[Autumn]

well, that's why there was a gender thread, but nobody uses it so. :B

Point taken. I suppose because this conversation is the ongoing one it seems easier to ask questions, though?

 

[Dinru]

I don't understand what you're trying to imply here. There is no connection between being trans and otherkin.

Also, that sounds like it's more related to ableism? I mean, if someone hears about this person going around saying they're a cat or a fairy or something, then they automatically think "haha that person is crazy", and then beat them up for that or such.

Well no, but it does mean that a lot of otherkin know a thing or two about trans* issues and quite a few of them live it, so they'd know how not to appropriate the language and the issues and know when it's appropriate to draw comparisons and such.

Also, that's a really good point.

Point taken. I suppose because this conversation is the ongoing one it seems easier to ask questions, though?

You could always personally ask someone involved in the conversation instead of inserting yourself, though! (ps I'm always open for questions though I admit my experiences as a trans person are rather limited.)

 

[shy ♡]

It really is harmful, though. Otherkin, especially in social justice-y places like Tumblr, are generally SAWCSMs (or are, at the very least, very privileged people) who like to compare their plight and struggle to those of trans* people. Otherkin who take terms from the trans* community absolutely need to be called out. This is a good blog from an ex-otherkin who explains why people do this and why it's bad.

I agree that merely identifying as otherkin is not problematic. There are weirder things to think than "I am a cat," and I doubt anybody is going to be able to convince them otherwise, so I just leave it alone.

I really think that's a separate issue. Otherkin in itself is not inherently harmful. It is possible people group to it for reasons. Not the same thing, though, and honestly if someone's a jerk... idc if they're otherkin or not, so.

That is fair! However, no one's asking you to immediately trust the cis community, but more simply to not get defensive and angry when they haven't expressed any outright anti-trans* sentiments!

I suppose you have a point! However cis people are not the ones seeking rights right now, that would be the trans* community! And while no one's asking you to be sweet as honey to every cis person you meet, I personally am asking if the blanket generalizations and angry reactions against cis people trying to understand the trans* community could be toned down some!

It seems like the most appropriate place to ask, honestly. I mean, it is already a discussion about trans* people being held by trans* people, if a cis reader has a question about something a trans* person states why not add to the discussion?

I'm going to put this as simply as I can. Trans* issues are not about you. You have to take yourself out of the argument. When someone says 'cis people' and you get offended, you are making a trans* discussion about cis people, about you.

If you are not a bad person, you really don't have to go on tirades about it. Just act like a nice person and I'm sure we'll all realize hey, you're a nice person.

Honestly, I don't even know what statement has got you so offended. Iirc no one even said anything negative about cis people. It honestly feels like all the cis people here are just angry that we might think they're mean so you have to yell until we'll say ok, you're the good cis people. How about... you just... act nice??? Or do you really think this is a case of anti-cis bigotry in which we think all cis people are assholes so by default no matter how you act you are an asshole?

"That is fair! However, no one's asking you to immediately trust the cis community, but more simply to not get defensive and angry when they haven't expressed any outright anti-trans* sentiments!"

How about you consider the fact that we're getting defensive because you have stated things that are anti-trans*? It seems to me like you'd prefer to be considered 'good' than to actually think about if you're being anti-trans* or not.

EDIT: People here post very fast. Huh.

My entire point is that ... evidently does not want to become a bigot. She was asking questions and trying to learn. If someone offends you unintentionally, just explain why you were offended and give them an opportunity to learn from the experience, then kick their ass if they don't.

I am not saying that it's okay to use a transparent veneer of politesse to disguise vile prejudices. It's not about you having to earn anything, it's about having to teach other people what hurts you because they genuinely don't know.

Generally people offend me so often that I literally have run out of fucks to explain to each and every one why they are being offensive. Imagine if every time someone spoke to you they could not get away without saying something offensive. Your family, your friends, strangers online. It seems like the world rejoices in offending you. Would you really, after your entire life of this, still be explaining patiently how they're being offensive? I mean, if you would be, congrats, you've got more patience than me.

No, but you should at least be given the benefit of the doubt.

I am not asking you to adore or worship anyone; I'm asking you to recognize when a person is just ignorant as opposed to an actual asshole. If somebody says terribly offensive things because they honestly don't know any better, just explain to them what they're doing wrong and why, and hopefully they'll change. If they don't care even after you've told them what offends you and why, then they really are assholes, but at least give them that opportunity to prove otherwise. How can you blame someone for offending you when they honestly had no idea what they were doing wrong?

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and if they change or prove that I was misjudging them I change my opinion of them. I also don't much care if someone is ignorant or an actual asshole, I only care how they act. Ignorance can lead to just as much bigotry.

I don't have to, or care, about blaming them. As I said, if they actually change, great. Most of the time, it seems like people just don't care about learning, and that includes the people here.

 

[Phantom]

I know I get yelled at for talking. Last time I posted I even got an angry message from a mod telling me I should just not talk.

I'm at that weird point where I bounce between things. I'm not trans*, but sometimes I don't exactly think I fit in as a woman.

But the hate I'm seeing in this thread coming from the trans* people is really saddening. Yes there are mean people out there, but do you really need to label an entire group like that? Not EVERY cis person is a jerk. And this for sure won't endear allies folks. When you label and entire group for something like that you are stooping down to the level of all those who have judged or 'hated on' you.

Now you are going to say, 'you're not trans* you don't have any right to tell us how we should react/feel/post/whatever'. No, I don't, and that's not really what I'm getting at. We share this planet. There will always be hate in one form or another. But a person that deals with so much judgement and hate for being who they are, shouldn't do the same when it comes to others for being who they are. It's hypocritical. Hate the rest of the world if you want, but don't expect them to love you back when you do that.

Unless I am specifically addressed I will now stalk into the shadows.

 

[Datura]

And this for sure won't endear allies folks.

~If you need to be endeared you are not an ally; you are part of the problem~

When you label and entire group for something like that you are stooping down to the level of all those who have judged or 'hated on' you.

Are you kidding? Trans people have it tough. Trans people get harassed just for walking down the street. Trans people have to deal with being misgendered constantly. Trans people are treated like shit by the GSM movement that is supposed to be on their side. Trans people have to deal with coming out as trans to family members and friends who will probably never fully understand what being trans is like. And you think a trans person getting mad at cis people on the internet is just as bad.

 

[Phantom]

~~~If you need to be endeared you are not an ally; you are part of the problem!~~~

Oh, look, huge text. And that's not what I meant. If you want to help bolster support and have more allies then this isn't the way to do so.

Are you kidding? Trans people have it tough. Trans people get harassed just for walking down the street. Trans people have to deal with being misgendered constantly. Trans people are treated like shit by the GSM movement that is supposed to be on their side. Trans people have to deal with "coming out" as trans to family members and friends who will probably never fully understand what being trans is like. And you think a trans person getting mad at cis people on the internet is just as bad.

I do believe I meantioned that, albiet shorter, in my post.

And you took my meaning way out of context. Way out of context.

Hate brings about hate, it's a never ending cycle. It takes a real person to stand up and say 'you know what, you can think what you want, but I am who I am' and walk away. By hating those who act hateful to you you are doing exactly what they want, making yourself and those you stand with look bad. Especially when someone opens up and asks questions with pure curiousity and you spew your hatred at them. Learning is a step towards understanding. Who wants to learn from someone who is filled with hatred for your entire 'group'? I wouldn't.

 

[Datura]

Oh, look, huge text. And that's not what I meant. If you want to help bolster support and have more allies then this isn't the way to do so.

I don't need allies. Nobody needs allies. Fuck allies. When you talk about how hateful we ("we" being any kind of minority) are being, when you talk about how we aren't catering to allies to make them feel welcome in our safe spaces, when you concern troll without thinking seriously about where all of this rage is coming from, you are making the conversation about you. "Allies" is a nice word for people who are proud of the fact that they aren't terrible human beings and want to participate in a self-congratulatory circlejerk.

If you support GSMs or the oppressed minority group of your choosing, great. Good for you! If you have to qualify it or act like your support is vital to the cause, you are being offensive. Minorities never need to cater to groups oppressing them. Ever.

Oh, and take all of this and multiply it by a billion for trans people. I am a privileged person in an awful lot of ways: I'm not straight, but I'm male, white, cis, and able-bodied. I can't even imagine how offensive "but what about teh alliez?!?! D:" is to people who have it exponentially harder than I do.

 

[Phantom]

I don't need allies. Nobody needs allies. Fuck allies. When you talk about how hateful we ("we" being any kind of minority) are being, when you talk about how we aren't catering to allies to make them feel welcome in our safe spaces, when you concern troll without thinking seriously about where all of this rage is coming from, you are making the conversation about you. "Allies" is a nice word for people who are proud of the fact that they aren't terrible human beings and want to participate in a self-congratulatory circlejerk.

If you support GSMs or the oppressed minority group of your choosing, great. Good for you! If you have to qualify it or act like your support is vital to the cause, you are being offensive. Minorities never need to cater to groups oppressing them. Ever.

Oh, and take all of this and multiply it by a billion for trans people. I am a privileged person in an awful lot of ways: I'm not straight, but I'm male, white, cis, and able-bodied. I can't even imagine how offensive "but what about teh alliez?!?! D:" is to people who have it exponentially harder than I do.

You didn't read after the first quote did you?

 

[Datura]

You didn't read after the first quote did you?

Everything I said applies to the second part of your post as well.

 

[Phantom]

All I read in that was 'fuck you'. Maybe you can say "fuck allies", but all I'm getting out of this is looking at the small picture. LGBT. QUILTBAG. However you want to say it. When people respond with so much hatred it looks bad not only for trans*, but for others as well that are in the 'spectrum' so to speak.

EDIT: More explaination.

Do trans* people have the right to be angry? Yes. Hell yes.

Should they take it out on someone because that person is cis? No.

Should they say they hate cis people? No. Because it's just as bad as what's been done to them. Like a person who was bullied as a kid, who then in turn bullies someone when they are older.

 

[shy ♡]

You didn't read after the first quote did you?

Did you read any parts of my posts? I'll repost it for you.

I'm going to put this as simply as I can. Trans* issues are not about you. You have to take yourself out of the argument. When someone says 'cis people' and you get offended, you are making a trans* discussion about cis people, about you.

If you are not a bad person, you really don't have to go on tirades about it. Just act like a nice person and I'm sure we'll all realize hey, you're a nice person.

Honestly, I don't even know what statement has got you so offended. Iirc no one even said anything negative about cis people. It honestly feels like all the cis people here are just angry that we might think they're mean so you have to yell until we'll say ok, you're the good cis people. How about... you just... act nice??? Or do you really think this is a case of anti-cis bigotry in which we think all cis people are assholes so by default no matter how you act you are an asshole?

How about you consider the fact that we're getting defensive because you have stated things that are anti-trans*? It seems to me like you'd prefer to be considered 'good' than to actually think about if you're being anti-trans* or not.

And I'll reiterate something Datura said: we really don't need allies. We need laws protecting us. We need health care. We need our fucking sanity and for supposed 'allies' to back the fuck off. If you are an ally then act like one?? What does saying you're an ally actually do for us? Nothing. If you are an ally, do something. Don't whine about how oppressed you are by us.

 

[Phantom]

Did you read any parts of my posts? I'll repost it for you.

My post was standalone, sort of.

And I'll reiterate something Datura said: we really don't need allies. We need laws protecting us. We need health care. We need our fucking sanity and for supposed 'allies' to back the fuck off. If you are an ally then act like one?? What does saying you're an ally actually do for us? Nothing. If you are an ally, do something. Don't whine about how oppressed you are by us.

I'm biromantic asexual. My life has had none of the hardships like those that are trans*.

And I get that.

But standing together is what will get us those things! Marriage! Equal rights! Allies are a part of that! An ally is someone who will vote to get those laws! An ally is someone who can write a letter to a politician! An ally is ANOTHER NUMBER to add to the cause, another name on a petition!

The more we have the better the chances of stepping over those who put us down!

 

[shy ♡]

All I read in that was 'fuck you'. Maybe you can say "fuck allies", but all I'm getting out of this is looking at the small picture. LGBT. QUILTBAG. However you want to say it. When people respond with so much hatred it looks bad not only for trans*, but for others as well that are in the 'spectrum' so to speak.

Why do you care how you look? Again, you are trying to earn allies. I don't want to earn anything.

EDIT: More explaination.

Do trans* people have the right to be angry? Yes. Hell yes.

Should they take it out on someone because that person is cis? No.

Should they say they hate cis people? No. Because it's just as bad as what's been done to them. Like a person who was bullied as a kid, who then in turn bullies someone when they are older.

• Please re-read this thread.
• Where was anyone bullied for being cis?
• No where.
• Where did anyone say they hate all cis people?
• No where.
• Please learn to read what people say and not what you are assuming they say.
• No it is not as bad as what has been done to us. What has been done to us is murder, rape, being kicked out of our homes, being fired, removal of the most basic of human rights. Saying we hate cis people is NOTHING. NOTHING. Are you seriously comparing this? Seriously? And we didn't even SAY that. Christ.
• In conclusion if people would actually read threads everyone would be happier.

 

[octobr]

we shouldn't have to be nice to get allies is the thing

if you're only gonna be an 'ally' if we're super sweet to you then there's a problem. we are human beings who deserve the same rights as cis people. we shouldn't have to earn our allies; they should be a goddamn given.

eta: on the 'stop being mean to cis people just because they're cis' thing, i find this to be a good read. it deals with the recent fad of saying 'die cis scum,' and while i myself never felt the need to say it, the reasoning behind its existence and the reasoning as to why saying it isn't the end of the world is super important. it's hardly a perfect post, and there's a link in the comments that's really good too about why the phrase is not ok, but the point is... yeah. the worst the trans community can do to cis people is call them names. the worst the cis community can do to trans people is murder them.

 

[Phantom]

we shouldn't have to be nice to get allies is the thing

if you're only gonna be an 'ally' if we're super sweet to you then there's a problem. we are human beings who deserve the same rights as cis people. we shouldn't have to earn our allies; they should be a goddamn given.

If only, but that's not how the world works.

the worst the trans community can do to cis people is call them names. the worst the cis community can do to trans people is murder them.

Incorrect.

Last time I checked it is perfectly possible for a trans* person to kill someone.

I read it.

No, cis people aren't opressed like trans*.

Fuck. I HATE that we as humans have to LABEL everything. Putting people in categories and organizing them like library books and then saying that non fiction and fiction don't get along makes about as much sense as eating your own feces. That's what I'm fucking saying.

People are what they are. Trans* people shouldn't stereotype a cis person, just as much as a cis person shouldn't judge a trans*. I don't label. I hate them. People are people, not words or categories or better than another group or worse than another. That's why I hate that phrase "die cis scum" because it's not positive thinking, just as much as I hate anything other that separates one group from another. It's putting a whole community into a corner and saying you'll never understand so back the fuck off. Yet there are people who generally want to help or understand. People like the trans* have been so far backed into a corner by the fucked up shit they've had to live with that they lash out on anyone who tries to approach them.

A few thousand years and humanity still can't figure out that we're all the same damn species and that we are just hurting ourselves by picking apart our differences. When in fact it's our differences that make us strong.

 

[shy ♡]

Fuck. I HATE that we as humans have to LABEL everything. Putting people in categories and organizing them like library books and then saying that non fiction and fiction don't get along makes about as much sense as eating your own feces. That's what I'm fucking saying.

People are what they are. Trans* people shouldn't stereotype a cis person, just as much as a cis person shouldn't judge a trans*. I don't label. I hate them. People are people, not words or categories or better than another group or worse than another. That's why I hate that phrase "die cis scum" because it's not positive thinking, just as much as I hate anything other that separates one group from another. It's putting a whole community into a corner and saying you'll never understand so back the fuck off. Yet there are people who generally want to help or understand. People like the trans* have been so far backed into a corner by the fucked up shit they've had to live with that they lash out on anyone who tries to approach them.

A few thousand years and humanity still can't figure out that we're all the same damn species and that we are just hurting ourselves by picking apart our differences. When in fact it's our differences that make us strong.

No one's stereotyping anyone, unless you consider being cis to be a stereotype. Then yes, we consider all cis people to be stereotyped as cis. The fact is, though, that cis people have zero reason to be tolerant, so it's quite easy to distance oneself from them. Just the fact that most cis people never seem to 'get' why someone is trans* is a big issue.

 

[Jolty]

holy fricking christ suddenly 473857485 posts
will reply to several later

 

[ultraviolet]

It's not unreasonable to ask that cis people not enter into trans* discussions between trans* people about trans*liness, even if those cis people aren't being assholes about it.

okay, for some reason I only just caught this now -- if this is the case, this really should have been mentioned somewhere probably before people started posting in this thread. The nature of a forum is that it's more or less open discussion; naturally people are going to give their opinions whether they're wanted/valid or not. this forum in particular is pretty open for letting anyone post (serious business doesn't have any restrictions for entry until you rack up some infractions, for example).

I mean I'm not saying it's your fault that cis people are giving their opinions without you guys really wanting them to, but it probably would have saved a lot of argument.

 

[Tarvos]

Some of you need to seriously chill the hell out. This thread is like a giant ball of frustration ravaging NYC or something.

I don't want to say too much, because posting in this thread is like prancing full steam ahead into an Angolan minefield, but one thing; one's physical identification has nothing to do with the strength of any logical argument (not now, not ever). If an argument is correct, it's correct. You can feel flustered about that but there's no point.

For a second, if your attitude to being secluded is "well fuck friends" then no wonder you're not making any.

I think MD pretty much has it on the money. If you want some understanding, show some understanding to other people and don't yell and whine at the first possible sign of potential opposition that you spotted with your Danger Sensor from the other end of the galaxy. It's not that you need friends, it's that with that attitude you will perpetuate and aggravate the situation.