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It is better for ten guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to be wrongly convicted

Pick the combination that fits best with your views:

  • I AGREE with the title and SUPPORT the death penalty.

    Votes: 8 11.1%
  • I AGREE with the title and OPPOSE the death penalty.

    Votes: 38 52.8%
  • I DISAGREE with the title and SUPPORT the death penalty.

    Votes: 10 13.9%
  • I DISAGREE with the title and OPPOSE the death penalty.

    Votes: 16 22.2%

  • Total voters
    72
Do the two effect eachother?
Anyway, I disagree with the title, oppose the death penalty.

Just, I'm pretty sure the Judicial system is about punishment. I'm not one of the whole 'oh well he learned his lesson slap-on-the-wrist' type of people. I hate it when people say that murderers should be pityed, because the person who should be pityed is probably the dead person.

As to the statement itself. Well, as there's no scenario to support it, then statistics say that 10 should go to prison, as it benefits more people than 1 going free.
 
Voted DISAGREE and SUPPORT.

So I think of ten guilty people being locked up and not being able to harm society and think "that sounds great". But then I tack on the cost of the innocent man; his life ruined, his heart filled with despair.

Think of the big picture. Those ten people go free. One of them goes off to mug a random passerby to feed his drug habit. Another one rapes and murders a thirteen year old. Three of the others work together to rob a bank, killing five people in the process, before killing themselves to escape conviction. Etcetera etcetera.

They could be ten criminals of desperation or blackmail, people who literally had no choice.
Yes, and if they were, they should be given relatively short prison terms. There are more grades of punishment than "Aquitted", "Life in prison" and "Death".

Also, how many criminals are not desperate? You pretty much need to be eiter desperate or psychotic to commit any serious crime.

And if the innocent person is convicted, what? He's in prison for a few years while staying in contact with his family who have to psychological issues aside from some rage against the system for convicting an innocent. Possibly, he'll be found innocent and let out of prison early, or given reparations later on. Unless of course he's given the death penaly. Well, shit. Then we really need to start thinking about improving our police departments and courts so this doesn't happen again.

...you have to question who the real victim in the story is - the girl who had a short but enjoyable life, only for it to end in a relatively brief twenty minutes of agony, or the man who had to live his entire existence with a fucked up brain, never able to know any human emotion, and then be put to death?

You mean the girl who had fifty or more years taken away from her enjoyable life, her family who have to mourn, or the man who was freed from his fucked up life? There are worse fates than death. Life in prison, for instance.


Now, I'm not saying we should use the death penalty very often, but there are extreme cases when it just goes against common sense not to sentence someone to death.
 
Think of the big picture. Those ten people go free. One of them goes off to mug a random passerby to feed his drug habit. Another one rapes and murders a thirteen year old. Three of the others work together to rob a bank, killing five people in the process, before killing themselves to escape conviction. Etcetera etcetera.

Think of the big picture. The one person, locked up, not able to continue his work. Millions of people die from a disease he had been on the verge of curing.

Let me ask my question, again: what if it were ten innocent men and one guilty?

Unless of course he's given the death penaly. Well, shit. Then we really need to start thinking about improving our police departments and courts so this doesn't happen again.

No matter how good you are, no matter how carefully you make your conclusions, there will always be the slight chance you are mistaken. That, alone, should be enough to convince anyone that the death penalty is a mistake. Consider: lots of people have been exonerated while on death row. I am sure at least one has been wrongly executed.

Now, I'm not saying we should use the death penalty very often, but there are extreme cases when it just goes against common sense not to sentence someone to death.

Why? The death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment (because of all the appeal processes), it's less humane, it's irreversible... There is simply no reason the death penalty should be used instead of life imprisonment.
 
Think of the big picture. The one person, locked up, not able to continue his work. Millions of people die from a disease he had been on the verge of curing.
Good point. It always depends on the specific case, though. In a situation like this, who's to say he can't continue his work in prison? Or have someone else take it up.

In a situation like this, it makes very little difference if he's innocent or guilty, however. A solution in which he is able to continue his research for a cure for this disease would always be advantageous.

Let me ask my question, again: what if it were ten innocent men and one guilty?
Much more difficult question. Probably "No, let them all go free", but it all depends on the crime.

If eleven men stand trial for burning down an entire hotel with hundreds of people in it, you know that ONE of them did it, and that the others are innocent, but cannot tell who is guilty, what do you do? Are you reasonably sure that executing the arsonist is the only reliable way to prevent him from doing it again? Are you reasonably sure that aquitting him would cause him to burn something else down?

If so, it would make the most logical sense to execute all of them. Or stick them in prison, whichever you prefer.

What if it happened to me? If I was one of the suspects, and I was, y'know, fairly sure I hadn't done it, how would I feel? Devastated, of course, sad that my life was about to end. But courts have to be objective. Unemotional. Lawful Neutral.

No matter how good you are, no matter how carefully you make your conclusions, there will always be the slight chance you are mistaken. That, alone, should be enough to convince anyone that the death penalty is a mistake. Consider: lots of people have been exonerated while on death row. I am sure at least one has been wrongly executed.

Of course, this happens. At the moment. But I am still convinced that this could be avoided if the legal system was less lazy, and properly investigated every possibility.

Or, if not avoided, at least minimized. And again, I believe it is better to have a few innocents convicted than a lot of guilty people aquitted. (To simplify, Many Bad People Free Equals Many More Good People Dead)

But where do we draw the line? At 5 innocents, 6 criminals? I honestly don't know. But again, everything is relative. It depends on the case.

Why? The death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment (because of all the appeal processes), it's less humane, it's irreversible... There is simply no reason the death penalty should be used instead of life imprisonment.

Imagine, a psychotic murderer goes to prison instead of the chair. While in prison, he immediately starts bumraping and murdering people who were there for three months because they stole a loaf of bread to feed their family.

Also, he could escape. Execution is the only way to ensure that this doesn't happen.

And if you make the prisons so secure that escape is practically impossible (each prisoner given a 4x4 cell, given food three times a day, never let out, ever), then what the hell is the point in living for that prisoner? I dare you to name one person who would prefer that to execution. How would that be more humane than execution?

And how is execution less humane in the first place? Lethal injection with insufficient anesthesia is worse than decade after decade in prison? At most a few minutes of agony versus fifty years of agony?

Seriously, execution is only less humane than lifetime if the convict is innocent. And even then it's debatable. What would you prefer? Sitting in prison for the rest of your life, knowing you're innocent but having no way of proving it, until the day you die? Or just dying on the spot?
 
Good point. It always depends on the specific case, though. In a situation like this, who's to say he can't continue his work in prison? Or have someone else take it up.

In a situation like this, it makes very little difference if he's innocent or guilty, however. A solution in which he is able to continue his research for a cure for this disease would always be advantageous.

Mostly my point was that making up contrived examples was pointless and could work both ways.

My main argument against your position is that imprisoning an innocent man has effects beyond the immediate. As soon as you imprison an innocent person "for the greater good" it is an unfortunately short and slippery slope to other even more meaningless justifications.

Much more difficult question. Probably "No, let them all go free", but it all depends on the crime.

Thank you for proving my point. This question requires ethical judgements that simply cannot be made! You can't say "eh, these ten people are guilty enough that imprisoning an innocent man is ethically justifiable".

If eleven men stand trial for burning down an entire hotel with hundreds of people in it, you know that ONE of them did it, and that the others are innocent, but cannot tell who is guilty, what do you do? Are you reasonably sure that executing the arsonist is the only reliable way to prevent him from doing it again? Are you reasonably sure that aquitting him would cause him to burn something else down?

You are making up contrived examples. That is not the point I am making.

If so, it would make the most logical sense to execute all of them. Or stick them in prison, whichever you prefer.

jesus christ I hope you're never on a jury.

What if it happened to me? If I was one of the suspects, and I was, y'know, fairly sure I hadn't done it, how would I feel? Devastated, of course, sad that my life was about to end. But courts have to be objective. Unemotional. Lawful Neutral.

Bit of a shame they aren't, then, don't you think?

Of course, this happens. At the moment. But I am still convinced that this could be avoided if the legal system was less lazy, and properly investigated every possibility.

"Less lazy"? Do you really think it is possible to solve every crime with 100% confidence? Do you think witnesses are perfectly reliable? And what of the bias in courts towards minority groups? The legal system is not perfect; far from it.

Or, if not avoided, at least minimized. And again, I believe it is better to have a few innocents convicted than a lot of guilty people aquitted. (To simplify, Many Bad People Free Equals Many More Good People Dead)

It would be nice to live in your world, where apparently everyone is either a Good Person or a Bad Person.

But where do we draw the line? At 5 innocents, 6 criminals? I honestly don't know. But again, everything is relative. It depends on the case.

That is a good question. The answer is: we don't. We can't. No one can. That is why your position is flawed.

Imagine, a psychotic murderer goes to prison instead of the chair. While in prison, he immediately starts bumraping and murdering people who were there for three months because they stole a loaf of bread to feed their family.

You are suffering from an interesting misconception if you think psychotic murderers interact with people who are in prison for three months.

Also, he could escape. Execution is the only way to ensure that this doesn't happen.

Also, he could be innocent. Do you honestly think preventing the escape of some prisoners is worth the execution of innocent people?

And if you make the prisons so secure that escape is practically impossible (each prisoner given a 4x4 cell, given food three times a day, never let out, ever), then what the hell is the point in living for that prisoner? I dare you to name one person who would prefer that to execution. How would that be more humane than execution?

Well, for one, it wouldn't kill you against your will.

And how is execution less humane in the first place? Lethal injection with insufficient anesthesia is worse than decade after decade in prison? At most a few minutes of agony versus fifty years of agony?

Clearly this depends on the person. If it were me, yes, I would much much rather prefer decades in prison than death.

Though I do think people given the life sentence ought to have the possibility of choosing the death penalty instead.

Seriously, execution is only less humane than lifetime if the convict is innocent. And even then it's debatable. What would you prefer? Sitting in prison for the rest of your life, knowing you're innocent but having no way of proving it, until the day you die? Or just dying on the spot?

Uh, did you miss the bit where people have been proven innocent while on death row? I don't know, personally I'd prefer spending a while in jail then going free to being executed then having everyone go "oh, how silly is of us, he was innocent after all!" Maybe it's just me?
 
If we obey what the title says, how can there be courts and prisons at all? (By the way: I have read none of the posts in this thread.)
 
My main argument against your position is that imprisoning an innocent man has effects beyond the immediate. As soon as you imprison an innocent person "for the greater good" it is an unfortunately short and slippery slope to other even more meaningless justifications.
And letting a guilty person go free also has effects beyond the immediate. You can't just let a dangerous criminal go free, hold your thumbs and hope he doesn't reoffend, to save someone who might be innocent.

You can't say "eh, these ten people are guilty enough that imprisoning an innocent man is ethically justifiable".

Sure you can. In an extreme case, like the one I mentioned made up, it would be perfectly justifiable to imprison the innocent man. It wouldn't be a good thing to do, but it would be better than the alternative.

Do you really think it is possible to solve every crime with 100% confidence?
Nah. But let's aim for 100%, and see where it goes, okay?
Do you think witnesses are perfectly reliable?
No. They really aren't. Which is why we should look at physical evidence instead of claims of random spectators.
And what of the bias in courts towards minority groups?
If a court is biased against minority groups, then something has gone extremely wrong. "The white man's word is worth more than the negro man's word" hasn't been a valid argument since god knows when.
The legal system is not perfect; far from it.
No, it's not. But it should be. And if the legal system is not perfect, we should aim to perfect it, not disarm it by, say, abolishing death penalty.


It would be nice to live in your world, where apparently everyone is either a Good Person or a Bad Person.
Of course not everyone is eiter a good person or a bad person. Every criminal has a reason, a justification, for commiting a crime. That doesn't make Fred the Serial Rapist any less dangerous to the general public.

Well, for one, it wouldn't kill you against your will.
No, it would do something worse. It would imprison you for the rest of your life, forcing you to live your life with no purpose other than to eventually get to die. Life in prison is not life. It's existance. And if there is no hope of getting out again, then you might as well be dead.

Uh, did you miss the bit where people have been proven innocent while on death row? I don't know, personally I'd prefer spending a while in jail then going free to being executed then having everyone go "oh, how silly is of us, he was innocent after all!" Maybe it's just me?

If you see people being proven innocent while on death row, then that is a sign that your legal system is Bad and needs Improving, not that the death penalty is too dangerous to keep. You do not sentence someone to death unless you are 100% sure that they are guilty, after properly investigating every possibility. The death penalty is necessary, but needs to be used with care.

Would you take away the police force's firearms because they might hit an innocent while taking down a suspect? No, you would teach them to only fire when there is no other choice, and you have them practise their markmanship.
 
And letting a guilty person go free also has effects beyond the immediate. You can't just let a dangerous criminal go free, hold your thumbs and hope he doesn't reoffend, to save someone who might be innocent.

Not what I meant. Society rests on certain concepts; one of these is the concept of human rights, including the right to individual freedom. Violating that right "for the greater good" can swiftly lead to more questionable actions. I'm not trying to be melodramatic, but this sort of thing does happen.

Sure you can. In an extreme case, like the one I mentioned made up, it would be perfectly justifiable to imprison the innocent man. It wouldn't be a good thing to do, but it would be better than the alternative.

No, you can't. Ethics are relative. No one person can make that sort of ethical judgement.

Nah. But let's aim for 100%, and see where it goes, okay?

If you admit it can never be 100% perfect, you admit that there is always the chance an innocent person is executed. That means you're arguing that an innocent person's execution by the government can be justified. I suspect this represents rather an impassable barrier in our debate.

No. They really aren't. Which is why we should look at physical evidence instead of claims of random spectators.

Evidence is vague. Real life isn't CSI.

No, it's not. But it should be. And if the legal system is not perfect, we should aim to perfect it, not disarm it by, say, abolishing death penalty.

Disarm? Are you one of those people who argues that the death penalty dissuades people from committing crimes? This seems odd: first, did you not say that life imprisonment is a worse punishment than the death penalty? And second, I would direct your attention to the European Union. One of the requirements to join is abolishment of the death penalty, yet the murder rate is lower than in the US. edit: you live in Sweden? Wow.

Of course not everyone is eiter a good person or a bad person. Every criminal has a reason, a justification, for commiting a crime. That doesn't make Fred the Serial Rapist any less dangerous to the general public.

But it does cloud the matter significantly. Your comment seemed to suggest the matter was conveniently divided into black and white.

No, it would do something worse. It would imprison you for the rest of your life, forcing you to live your life with no purpose other than to eventually get to die. Life in prison is not life. It's existance. And if there is no hope of getting out again, then you might as well be dead.

That's your opinion. Mine is different.

If you see people being proven innocent while on death row, then that is a sign that your legal system is Bad and needs Improving, not that the death penalty is too dangerous to keep. You do not sentence someone to death unless you are 100% sure that they are guilty, after properly investigating every possibility. The death penalty is necessary, but needs to be used with care.

You can never be 100% sure. It is impossible. Literally impossible.

Would you take away the police force's firearms because they might hit an innocent while taking down a suspect? No, you would teach them to only fire when there is no other choice, and you have them practise their markmanship.

No, I would arm them with non-fatal weaponry.
 
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Even if somebody is guilty for certain, what is the advantage of killing him?
 
Not what I meant. Society rests on certain concepts; one of these is the concept of human rights, including the right to individual freedom. Violating that right "for the greater good" can swiftly lead to more questionable actions. I'm not trying to be melodramatic, but this sort of thing does happen.
this is exactly what i would say if i was a more eloquent person. i want to expand on something, but you really summed it up so perfectly here there's not much else to say. i guess i'll just add that people's lives and freedoms aren't really numbers you can barter with.
 
it's not. But it should be. And if the legal system is not perfect, we should aim to perfect it, not disarm it by, say, abolishing death penalty.
If I went about, in everyday life, making important decisions on the assumption that aims are realities, they'd make me see a psychiatrist! We aim never to break our legs, but that doesn't mean shutting the hospitals!
 
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Would you take away the police force's firearms because they might hit an innocent while taking down a suspect? No, you would teach them to only fire when there is no other choice, and you have them practise their markmanship.

The Irish police force (An Garda Síochána) is almost completely unarmed (patrols in some of the rough parts of Limerick, Dublin and Cork get handguns, the ERU is our SWAT team) and on two occasions when the government tried to arm them, they refused to even consider it. Ireland's murder rate is one fifth of the United States'.
 
That's your opinion. Mine is different.
Yeah, I think this pretty much sums it up. But anyway,

...the murder rate is lower than in the US.
I've always been of the opinion that the main reason for the high murder rate in the US is the rather... liberal gun ownership laws. But that is a different matter entirely.


you live in Sweden? Wow.
Just because I live in a country doesn't mean I have to agree with all of its laws. Of course, I'll still follow them, but that's not the point.


Disarm? Are you one of those people who argues that the death penalty dissuades people from committing crimes? This seems odd: first, did you not say that life imprisonment is a worse punishment than the death penalty?

Let me clarify that. The death penalty is a safer, more permanent solution than locking someone up. A dead person can't escape and reoffend. Or make life a living hell for the rest of the inmates.

It is also, in my opinion and in the opinion of most other people I've asked, a much more humane solution for the convict (rather die than spend life in prison).

But yeah, not everyone shares this opinion. If you asked literally every single person in the world if they'd rather die than spend life in prison, which side would win? I know what I'd put my money on, but I've been wrong before.


If I went about, in everyday life, making important decisions on the assumption that aims are realities, they'd make me see a psychiatrist! We aim never to break our legs, but that doesn't mean shutting the hospitals!

If aims aren't realities, then we aren't trying hard enough. Separation of state and church. Women's rights. Black rights. Gay rights. Equality. All of these things were at one point unthinkable. Now they're pretty much taken for granted. In this part of the world anyhow. The rest of the world still needs work.

And a broken leg is, most of the time, the result of an accident. Murder is, by definition, intentional. There is a reason the punishments for involutary manslaughter aren't anywhere near as harsh as for premeditated murder.
 
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If aims aren't realities, then we aren't trying hard enough. Separation of state and church. Women's rights. Black rights. Gay rights. Equality. All of these things were at one point unthinkable. Now they're pretty much taken for granted.
I wait until I actually reach my aims before I start treating them as realities. You want to bring in the death penalty before the court system is perfected.
 
The death penalty in Rapture! Council's in an uproar. Riots in the streets, they say! But this is the time for leadership. Action must be taken against the smugglers. Any contact with the surface exposes Rapture to the very Parasites we fled from. A few stretched necks are a small price to pay for our ideals.
 
If aims aren't realities, then we aren't trying hard enough. Separation of state and church. Women's rights. Black rights. Gay rights. Equality. All of these things were at one point unthinkable. Now they're pretty much taken for granted. In this part of the world anyhow. The rest of the world still needs work.

(Having rights on paper =/= social equality)
 
It is also, in my opinion and in the opinion of most other people I've asked, a much more humane solution for the convict (rather die than spend life in prison).
This totally depends on the person, though; who are you to say what would be more humane for someone? It would be more humane for me to go into prison than the death penalty, for example. They're people, not pets, and disobeying our laws doesn't make them any less human.
 
Gay rights... Now they're pretty much taken for granted.

*cough* Since when?

On the subject of the thread's question/title, in a perfect world, people wouldn't be wrongly convicted, but the world and humanity on the whole are pretty much inherently impossible to perfect, soo... There's no 'perfect' answer to the question.
 
Though I do think people given the life sentence ought to have the possibility of choosing the death penalty instead.
Actually, yeah, that's a much better solution. Pity you don't have that option, but it's a much better thing to argue for than keeping death penalty for everyone.



Even if somebody is guilty for certain, what is the advantage of killing him?
The death penalty is a safer, more permanent solution than locking someone up. A dead person can't escape
Well, thinking about it for a second, prisons are probably safe enough nowadays that it's virtually impossible to escape from the really high security ones. So, not enough advantage to justify it, I guess.
Or make life a living hell for the rest of the inmates.
Solitary confinement.

So yeah, I was wrong, nothing to see here, move along.


(Having rights on paper =/= social equality)
*cough* Since when?

I did say "in this part of the world". Meaning western Europe. I know the US is still a bit worse off, especially in the gay department. But it's still legal in the whole country. There's nothing in the law that prevents a homosexual black woman from doing anything a heterosexual white man could do.

And that's what I meant. We are all equal in the eyes of the law. There are laws against assaulting, or even insulting someone, because of their heritage or sexual orientation, for example.
 
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