On Removing Clutter

[Lucas₇₅₅]

So, if there were interesting, all-involving, non-random/spammy games, you would be okay with them?

 

[surskitty]

If there were interesting games that involved more than the poster either directly before or after, then yes, I would.

 

[Negrek]

Forum games as a whole I can understand keeping. I would, however, like most of the ones that have no value to anyone other than the one or three people it's directed at to be nixed. Most posts in You're Banned are not particularly witty or interesting and quite probably are repeated; all of the rating threads are of interest only to the person being rated at the time and are frequently simply circlejerks; the never-ending stories rarely make sense as a comprehensive whole and so could be viewed as a failure....

I'm not saying KILL ALL FORUM GAMES. It could be interesting and relevant to someone other than the one person any given post is directed at! But it never is.

In that case, perhaps it would be best to have some sort of moderation queue for someone wishing to get a new game approved? Or alternatively just be more aggressive about locking game threads that aren't up to snuff. However, since I don't really feel like familiarizing myself with what sorts of threads there are in FG right now, I don't know if what you're proposing would actually, in effect, be shutting down that forum--that is, whether there currently exist any games that meet such criteria.

I also have to say that the idea of moving forum games to social groups is a very poor idea given the way that social groups are set up. They basically act like uncategorized threads, with the most recent ones being at the top, with no options (so far as I'm aware) for sticking or segregating them in any way. If someone wanted to have a social group for an actual club or discussion group or something of that nature, then it would most likely get buried immediately by all of the games going on; given the activity in forum games versus the rest of the forums, it's likely that discussion groups, which might get one or two posts a day, or activity even less frequently, would usually be pushed down to page two or three quite rapidly.

You could say that this wouldn't be a problem because people who have joined a social group can just get to it from their profile rather than going to the main social group index, but what about someone who is looking to join a new group and wants to see what's out there? They'd have to get through several pages of stuff before find the actual groups, or go surfing a bunch of user profiles instead. Also, while you'd be reducing *counted* posts from games, you wouldn't be reducing the amount of actual forum content, just displacing the games posts. It wouldn't be eliminating clutter--just moving it somewhere where, I feel, it would be much more of a hassle to work around. I mean, you can set forums you don't like/care about to ignore (uh I think that hack's still there, anyway), but if you can ignore social groups, I'm sure you'd have to do it individually, which means you'd have to block every frikkin' game group, or at least the popular ones, which is rather inefficient.

So wow, that got rather long. Uh, long story short forum games in social groups = bad idea.

 

[surskitty]

I haven't looked through everything in Forum Games, but everything I can think of offhand involves -- at most! -- the person directly before and/or after, and even then, not particularly much. So it'd be shutting down what's currently there, partly because people seem to think that there's no forum games other than "POST SOMETHING ABOUT THE NEXT/PREVIOUS POSTER" things.

I don't think the moderation queue's used for much, but simply being more aggressive about it would work.


Moving forum games to social groups would be silly, yes; moving some clubs to social groups or simply to other forums where they would belong, not so much.

 

[#1 bro]

surskitty, can you give an example of a forum game that doesn't involve only one other person? I'm drawing a blank. :|

 

[Evolutionary]

We can keep Rating Avatar/Sig/Usertitle(I don't really care about this)?

 

[surskitty]

surskitty, can you give an example of a forum game that doesn't involve only one other person? I'm drawing a blank. :|

So am I, but apparently they're a communal activity! Who knew.

We can keep Rating Avatar/Sig/Usertitle(I don't really care about this)?

Why, so people can post "10/10" for ages? All of the pages I looked at were just numbers and completely useless. :(

 

[Music Dragon]

If we all agree that spam has to be deleted, as I think we do, the only thing left to be settled is what to count as spam. The various other tiffs - about democracy and whether Forum Games is fun, what caused the server crashes, and so on - are not relevant or needed. If you are going to speak in this thread at all, answer the one question that's worth answering: What is spam and does it include Forum Games?

I can only assume that Forum Games as a whole is not part of Butterfree's definition of spam, or she wouldn't have created that forum in the first place.

And by the way, I don't agree that all spam has to be deleted; I'm happy as long as it doesn't get in my way (which is why I have Forum Games on hide). That which is pointless and annoying to me need not necessarily be so to everyone else!

Trying to eliminate everything that you don't personally like is quite selfish.

(And yes, I know all that spam is slowing down the forums and therefore affecting us all, but I was told that was just a red herring.)

 

[Stardust Dragona]

Why can't we have one thread which covers all of the *rate my ___* games? You could have all of them done at once or just ask for a specific one. I don't get why they made a rate my usertitle. Thats a rating game too far.

 

[Evolutionary]

I know, I never go there...

The rating threads are useful for opinions on new avatar/sigs.

I don't even think they should be in forum games and you could always make it compulsory to post improvements and stuff.

 

[Ruby]

And by the way, I don't agree that all spam has to be deleted; I'm happy as long as it doesn't get in my way (which is why I have Forum Games on hide). That which is pointless and annoying to me need not necessarily be so to everyone else!

This is the most telling thing you said. I wrote replies to the rest, but they are unnecessary. If you mean by this that nothing - from outright spam to shock images - should be deleted unless it gets in the way of other people, then the thread of your argument is wholly different from Lucas and Cirrus's. They don't think Forum Games is spam: you don't mind if Forum Games is spam. Each requires its own debate, and right now I haven't the time to grapple with either. All I will say is what has been said already. Spam quietly rots everywhere even when it looks locked in Forum Games.

 

[Music Dragon]

This is the most telling thing you said. I wrote replies to the rest, but they are unnecessary. If you mean by this that nothing - from outright spam to shock images - should be deleted unless it gets in the way of other people, then the thread of your argument is completely different from Lucas and Cirrus's. They don't think Forum Games is spam: you don't mind if Forum Games is spam. Each requires its own debate, and right now I haven't the time to grapple with either. All I will say is what has been said already. Spam quietly rots everywhere even when it looks locked in Forum Games.

Well, I don't want to bother you if you don't have enough time. After all, I imagine there are more important and sensible things to do than discuss silly issues with me - which is eerily reminiscent of a lot of arguments I've seen from people around here! Playing forum games is a meaningless, time-wasting activity that contributes nothing to nothing... People want to replace it with what they call intelligent discussion. What purpose does either really serve...?

But, at least for now, my point stands - neither spam nor shock images are of any actual harm if people never have to see them. The spamming activity in Forum Games is definitely not harmful (again, excepting the slowdowns).

I might change my stance if someone provides an argument that doesn't boil down to "other people's stupidity bugs me".

As for the plague of spam spreading its vile poison beyond the confines of its virtual prison - I'm not so sure, but I guess we'll see.

 

[Tarvos]

As long as you guys keep it in Forum Games it isn't too bad (though most of that forum is bullshit), but I see too much regurgitated crap in other forums as well; and the quality of those boards should be more strictly enforced.

 

[Eevee]

This is the most telling thing you said. I wrote replies to the rest, but they are unnecessary. If you mean by this that nothing - from outright spam to shock images - should be deleted unless it gets in the way of other people, then the thread of your argument is wholly different from Lucas and Cirrus's.

Is it? I'm sure seeing a lot of arguments along the lines of "what harm does it do if you don't look at it?" -- and what harm does spam do if I never look at it!

I was going to reply to everything, but this rather well summarizes my main problem with the opposition's main counterpoint. "You can ignore it" alone isn't good enough.

 

[Lucas₇₅₅]

I might change my stance if someone provides an argument that doesn't boil down to "other people's stupidity bugs me".

"You can ignore it" alone isn't good enough.

I believe this is what they call a stalemate.

 

[Ruby]

No, I didn't have enough time at that moment, MD.

I might change my stance if someone provides an argument that doesn't boil down to "other people's stupidity bugs me".

As for the plague of spam spreading its vile poison beyond the confines of its virtual prison - I'm not so sure, but I guess we'll see.

My argument does not boil down to stupidity's bugging me. If there was a section of TCoD called Forum Memes, where people spent hours posting only joke pictures and trite phrases over and over again thousands of times, even if they never once posted them outside Forum Memes, TCoD's character - it's personality as a community - would change. TCoD's face would become disfigured. It might start to look like 4chan's. Or let us suppose the process happened in reverse. If we got rid of Miscellaneous Discussion, the Debating Hall, the Laughing Cupboard, the Coughing Cupboard, Writing, and Entertainment, which altogether have fewer posts in them than Forum Games, would it only affect the users who visited those sections often? Would Clubs and Artwork be unchanged? I do not think so. You see, you may believe that each section of TCoD is an island that can be ignored. But they are connected by the people and attitudes travelling between them. The mere fact that the island of Forum Games exists is enough to change the culture of the archipelago. Measured in posts, Forum Games is as large as Australia, and just as difficult to ignore - even though, as you say, I don't have to look at it.

 

[Music Dragon]

Is it? I'm sure seeing a lot of arguments along the lines of "what harm does it do if you don't look at it?" -- and what harm does spam do if I never look at it!

I was going to reply to everything, but this rather well summarizes my main problem with the opposition's main counterpoint. "You can ignore it" alone isn't good enough.

I would love to know why, though...

No, I didn't have enough time at that moment, MD.

Oh! Right. My mistake.

My argument does not boil down to stupidity's bugging me. If there was a section of TCoD called Forum Memes, where people spent hours posting only joke pictures and trite phrases over and over again thousands of times, even if they never once posted them outside Forum Memes, TCoD's character - it's personality as a community - would change. TCoD's face would become disfigured. It might start to look like 4chan's. Or let us suppose the process happened in reverse. If we got rid of Miscellaneous Discussion, the Debating Hall, the Laughing Cupboard, the Coughing Cupboard, Writing, and Entertainment, which altogether have fewer posts in them than Forum Games, would it only affect the users who visited those sections often? Would Clubs and Artwork be unchanged? I do not think so. You see, you may believe that each section of TCoD is an island that can be ignored. But they are connected by the people and attitudes travelling between them. The mere fact that the island of Forum Games exists is enough to change the culture of the archipelago. Measured in posts, Forum Games is as large as Australia, and just as difficult to ignore - even though, as you say, I don't have to look at it.

Hmm. I'm not entirely convinced, but you may very well be right.

When people who play forum games post not-so-thought-through things in other forums, I always attributed that to general immaturity, not negative influences from Forum Games and its frequenters. I don't think Forum Games is what attracts new members to TCoD; we've always had annoying, less-than-intelligent pre-teen members around here, and that's probably not going to change if we get rid of Forum Games. They're not going to change. I think, more than anything, their attitudes are affected by ours towards them!

I'm also perfectly convinced Forum Games has no detrimental effect whatsoever on the minds of our veteran members - in fact, I don't think any half-way mature and intelligent person would be that weak-minded, senior or not.

But yes, "TCoD's face" has quite possibly changed lately, keeping the aforementioned intelligent people from actually joining - I wouldn't know. I don't... get out much, so to speak. Still, I always got the impression that when people speak ill of us elsewhere, it's not because of all the spam; it's because of all the drama...!

I feel a strong aversion to the idea of stripping others of their right to play meaningless games simply because our collective reputation might suffer from it. Again, I wouldn't mind if Butterfree herself removed the games, because these are her forums and she probably has her own idea of what sorts of members she wants. But she's the only one with any real authority; as of now, I'm not going to side with anyone else claiming that we should exterminate Forum Games on the grounds that it's hurting TCoD's outward face, or whatever.

My problem is that you're still being too subjective; there is no objective reason why we should get rid of Forum Games, and no personal opinion is relevant unless it is held by Butterfree. Even if you could prove that the spam is damaging our reputation (which, admittedly, you probably could), it all depends on what kinds of people we want to attract - or, rather, what kinds of people the administrator wants to attract.

After all, your argument could easily be reversed. Perhaps those people who play Forum Games want more people like them to join. Perhaps they are, from their perspective, doing TCoD a favour!

And anyway, if members acting stupidly doesn't bug you - what do you care if our reputation is hurt? It might discourage other intellectuals from joining, but if you want to find intellectuals to talk to, I suggest you come to them, not the other way around.

But hey, here's a novel thought: create your own forums! A place where only the best of the best of TCoD would follow you, where you'd only allow more-or-less intelligent discussion and ban all (pointless) forum games, where you'd make the rules and not just enforce them... That sounds like a good plan, doesn't it? I bet nobody's ever thought of that before! Hoohoo. I'm so clever.

(Bottom line: I'm as stubborn as a mule and I won't budge until Butterfree makes a conclusive statement or you provide me with a really compelling argument.)

 

[Eevee]

I would love to know why, though...

Because your stance means nothing is forbidden. What's wrong with posting spam? You can ignore it if you don't like it. What's wrong with posting porn? You can ignore it if you don't like it. What's wrong with posting the pain series? You can ignore it if you don't like it. What's wrong with posting advertisements for cheap generic drugs? You can ignore it if you don't like it.

You should have to defend why what you want to post deserves to be here in the first place. Everyone else should not have to invent a compelling reason why it specifically doesn't. It's crap, there's no reason for it to be on forums, the end.

When people who play forum games post not-so-thought-through things in other forums, I always attributed that to general immaturity, not negative influences from Forum Games and its frequenters. I don't think Forum Games is what attracts new members to TCoD; we've always had annoying, less-than-intelligent pre-teen members around here, and that's probably not going to change if we get rid of Forum Games. They're not going to change.

Which is why I said this is ultimately futile.

I'm also perfectly convinced Forum Games has no detrimental effect whatsoever on the minds of our veteran members

It sure makes me further uninclined to visit the forums.

My problem is that you're still being too subjective; there is no objective reason why we should get rid of Forum Games

A forum is for discussion. That is what they are designed for. That is what the word means. That is what they have been for thousands of years. This format is best suited for discussion, and forums are only set up in the first place to foster it.
Forum games are not discussion.
Therefore, these games do not belong on forums.

It's also a tremendous waste of resources to save all of these posts when nobody is ever going to read more than the last one in a thread. They are much more appropriate for something instant and lurky like IRC.

and no personal opinion is relevant unless it is held by Butterfree. Even if you could prove that the spam is damaging our reputation (which, admittedly, you probably could), it all depends on what kinds of people we want to attract - or, rather, what kinds of people the administrator wants to attract.

Yeah, deferring to someone else's authority sure is easier than actually constructing an argument.

But hey, here's a novel thought: create your own forums! A place where only the best of the best of TCoD would follow you

Is that what you want? Everyone in this thread who abhors forum games to leave?

 

[Music Dragon]

Because your stance means nothing is forbidden. What's wrong with posting spam? You can ignore it if you don't like it. What's wrong with posting porn? You can ignore it if you don't like it. What's wrong with posting the pain series? You can ignore it if you don't like it. What's wrong with posting advertisements for cheap generic drugs? You can ignore it if you don't like it.

Sure. These things already exist, but they don't bother me in the slightest when I don't have to see them.

You should have to defend why what you want to post deserves to be here in the first place. Everyone else should not have to invent a compelling reason why it specifically doesn't. It's crap, there's no reason for it to be on forums, the end.

The reason is that people enjoy it, of course. I thought the general consensus around here was that consenting parties should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't get in anyone else's way.

It sure makes me further uninclined to visit the forums.

Yes, I can tell... But on the other hand, banning Forum Games would make other members less inclined to visit (I assume, since they're so ardently defending it).

A forum is for discussion. That is what they are designed for. That is what the word means. That is what they have been for thousands of years. This format is best suited for discussion, and forums are only set up in the first place to foster it.
Forum games are not discussion.
Therefore, these games do not belong on forums.

Forums were designed for discussion, but that doesn't mean their use is entirely restricted to that. Playing forum games is, apparently, an enjoyable activity that shouldn't bother anyone who chooses not to take part. I still can't see the problem.

It's also a tremendous waste of resources to save all of these posts when nobody is ever going to read more than the last one in a thread. They are much more appropriate for something instant and lurky like IRC.

Yes, that's true, even though I think it's pretty close to the red herring. The person to whom the resources in question belong will have to complain, then.

Yeah, deferring to someone else's authority sure is easier than actually constructing an argument.

Every argument here is subjective. Your arguments, their arguments - everything is based on opinion, on what we want these forums to be and what kind of activity we want to promote. As has already been said, TCoD is not a democracy, and opinion only matters insofar as it can influence the owner. You want to improve the quality of the forums, but other people would consider it lowered if you had your way; it wouldn't be right to make a decision based on your opinions, and neither would it be right to make one based on theirs.

Is that what you want? Everyone in this thread who abhors forum games to leave?

I'm not trying to make them leave, but I assume they'd be happier if they got to run things their own way.

Most of those who are against Forum Games are people I like very much, but I still don't think it would be right to stop Forum Games posters from doing what they do; it wouldn't be fair to ban their silly hobby simply because you can't stand being aware of its presence a few clicks away. I'm making an effort not to let my dispositions towards senior members cloud my judgement.

 

[Espeon]

Most of those who are against Forum Games are people I like very much, but I still don't think it would be right to stop Forum Games posters from doing what they do; it wouldn't be fair to ban their silly hobby simply because you can't stand being aware of its presence a few clicks away. I'm making an effort not to let my dispositions towards senior members cloud my judgement.

Even so, the threads which are blatant postcount increase are annoying, a waste of space and cause for arguements. Honestly, if the games are actually a game as opposed to "poscount++", then sure it should be fine. It's why the Forum Games are there in the first place, so people can play games. Unfortunately they've just become a tool for users to increase their postcount.

Personally, it should just be that games which are cases of postcount++ should be deleted and the ones which are actually games should stay. Rules should really be invoked about game creation too.
Generally the "how famous are you" and other one-word/one-number answer "games" which require no thought whatsoever.

While we're at it, I think some people should stop joining absolutely every roleplay they possibly can. Maybe limit it to about 3 roleplays per person at one time until one roleplay finishes as such?

Feel free to completely ignore me if this has been said before. I haven't got the effort to read through the rest of the thread.