Question about cultures

[Music Dragon]

P.S. I'm not claiming that Scottish people are '''oppressed''', you guys. Please don't insinuate that I am! It's really annoying.

Alright, sorry! Just joking around.

 

[ultraviolet]

I dunno I really love the idea of preserving culture and stuff and fully support it etc. but then i remember indigenous australians were considered native fauna until like the 60s-70s and then I remember how western australia has kind of the worst history for indigenous rights and how most indigenous languages are going extinct because there used to be like, hundreds, and i think most of them are dying out and indigenous history kind of goes unnoticed because white people generally don't care very much and the whole stolen generation thing because apparently indigenous australians could biologically raise children but weren't ''socially capable'' of raising them? and i just feel bad. and like apparently it's enough to name places after indigenous names for things?? like woollongong and basically every locality that ends with -up and towoomba and shit like that but everyone kind of stops listening when you mention how hard it is for indigenous people here? and people go apeshit for kangaroos and things like that but nobody really cares very much about indigenous culture??

but i dunno probably nobody knows or is interested because lol, australia.

 

[Cerberus87]

I dunno I really love the idea of preserving culture and stuff and fully support it etc. but then i remember indigenous australians were considered native fauna until like the 60s-70s and then I remember how western australia has kind of the worst history for indigenous rights and how most indigenous languages are going extinct because there used to be like, hundreds, and i think most of them are dying out and indigenous history kind of goes unnoticed because white people generally don't care very much and the whole stolen generation thing because apparently indigenous australians could biologically raise children but weren't ''socially capable'' of raising them? and i just feel bad. and like apparently it's enough to name places after indigenous names for things?? like woollongong and basically every locality that ends with -up and towoomba and shit like that but everyone kind of stops listening when you mention how hard it is for indigenous people here? and people go apeshit for kangaroos and things like that but nobody really cares very much about indigenous culture??

but i dunno probably nobody knows or is interested because lol, australia.

The Australians are probably more interested in killing the remaining ones, it's a secret wish of the common people, like the indigenous communities in Brazil.

Here in Brazil we have a culture of protecting the Indian, on the other hand this is to the detriment of the Afro-American. Indians couldn't be enslaved, Africans could.

 

[opaltiger]

There's still unresolved differences in the Slavic world, too, due to Russia's panslavism and Yugoslavia's (Serbia's, actually) imitation of it.

Okay, er, what. How is Russia currently panslavic? More to the point, how is Serbia panslavic (and, if you know Yugoslavia doesn't exist any more, why on earth did you mention it?)?

 

[ultraviolet]

The Australians are probably more interested in killing the remaining ones, it's a secret wish of the common people, like the indigenous communities in Brazil.

...nnno I don't think that's really a thing. Indigenous Australians are probably one of the more impoverished minorities in australia and there's lots of government outreach and stuff. like I don't think there's a huge culture of indigenous hatred in Australia, like you wouldn't find a racist depiction of indigenous culture on TV, but instead they're just not there at all (or very occasionally) unless it's something actually about indigenous culture.
like yeah, there are people who are racist and stuff, but i don't think there's this secret desire to kill indigenous people within the majority at all. that's a pretty dangerous generalization to make.

edit: I mean like, it's much more a 'white guilt' thing than actively wanting to see indigenous australians eradicated.

 

[Tarvos]

Okay, er, what. How is Russia currently panslavic? More to the point, how is Serbia panslavic (and, if you know Yugoslavia doesn't exist any more, why on earth did you mention it?)?

Which reminds me: BCMS (Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian), is that one language with four reasonably close quite mutually intelligble dialects, or do these splitoffs have a right to call it "Montenegrin", "Croatian" etc. tout seule? As far as I remember (with the exception of Slovenian, but you know more about that than I do; my Slavic language knowledge is limited to Russian), it's one language written slightly differently by those four groups, but they wanted them separate for political reasons. And then Slovenian is randomly a little more different.

 

[Dannichu]

I dunno I really love the idea of preserving culture and stuff and fully support it etc. but then i remember indigenous australians were considered native fauna until like the 60s-70s and then I remember how western australia has kind of the worst history for indigenous rights and how most indigenous languages are going extinct because there used to be like, hundreds, and i think most of them are dying out and indigenous history kind of goes unnoticed because white people generally don't care very much and the whole stolen generation thing because apparently indigenous australians could biologically raise children but weren't ''socially capable'' of raising them? and i just feel bad. and like apparently it's enough to name places after indigenous names for things?? like woollongong and basically every locality that ends with -up and towoomba and shit like that but everyone kind of stops listening when you mention how hard it is for indigenous people here? and people go apeshit for kangaroos and things like that but nobody really cares very much about indigenous culture??

but i dunno probably nobody knows or is interested because lol, australia.

Apparently it's a very similar situation for Maori people in New Zealand. After decades of persecution, White people have realised that maybe they should stop oppressing/start preserving, but from what I understand, lots of the culture preservation is for the wrong reasons (tourism, mostly).

 

[ultraviolet]

Apparently it's a very similar situation for Maori people in New Zealand. After decades of persecution, White people have realised that maybe they should stop oppressing/start preserving, but from what I understand, lots of the culture preservation is for the wrong reasons (tourism, mostly).

yeah, i think it is pretty similar (maori/torres strait islanders are unfortunately kind of lumped into the indigenous community here), although I think there might be more of a focus on them in tourism in NZ than here - a lot of australia's tourism boils down to 'beach! kangaroos! dangerous animals! wow it's hot out here today!' and so on. for example, people are still allowed to climb uluru/ayer's rock even though it's sacred to local indigenous groups.

 

[Cerberus87]

Okay, er, what. How is Russia currently panslavic? More to the point, how is Serbia panslavic (and, if you know Yugoslavia doesn't exist any more, why on earth did you mention it?)?

Dagestan and Chechnya in Russia for example. Russia will never allow them to break away from the federation, despite the fact only a minority in these territories are ethnic Russians.

Serbia was the strongest republic in the old Yugoslavia and the one with imperialist intentions. The thing in Yugoslavia is more complex than that, but if Milosevic had his way, there would be a large Serbian nation in the Balkans, with scattered minorities across the country and even forced out. "Panslavism" maybe not the correct term for it, but at the time of the war, the Serbian government certainly had imperialistic intentions, and the war was largely due to Serbia wanting to remain united (because of the Serbian populations in the other republics) and the other nations wanting independence.

 

[Tarvos]

"Panslavism" is just another word for "Serbian politicians are corrupt as hell".

 

[Edoc'sil]

I don't see a point to salvaging dead languages. There's no one to speak them, and so there's no need to learn them again. Exception: stuff like ancient Egyptian or Mayan or something in order to read their written language and find out about their history.
I think that it would be a lot easier if everyone spoke one language, a lot better. But who am I to declare any one language better than all others?
A lot of people have vastly different ideas of government, so eveyone living under one would be more or less impossible without revolution or something.

 

[Tarvos]

You know they raised Hebrew pretty much from the dead, right? And that it's an official language? Of a country? And it has millions of speakers?

I think that it would be a lot easier if everyone spoke one language, a lot better.

That would be such impoverishment. I see the value of having English as a lingua franca (which, let's face it, it already is) but that doesn't absolve us from learning other language and immersing ourself in other cultures to understand each other better.

 

[Music Dragon]

I don't see a point to salvaging dead languages. There's no one to speak them, and so there's no need to learn them again. Exception: stuff like ancient Egyptian or Mayan or something in order to read their written language and find out about their history.

Doesn't this "exception" encompass pretty much every language?

 

[Minish]

I think that it would be a lot easier if everyone spoke one language, a lot better. But who am I to declare any one language better than all others?

That's kind of. Impossible, sorry! Different ways of speaking didn't happen purely because everyone decided to do things differently and it's actually a really complex thing.

Like. Even putting aside the fact that human language has a vast history (which really roots the matter)! There are lots and lots and lots of people in the world living different lives very apart from each other. How do you want to impose this? How will you make everyone keep the same language forever? That doesn't just sound deeply impossible, it sounds cruel and ridiculous.


It's totally hugely completely cool that people can understand each other even though they were raised with different languages!! Wow! People can do some cool things. So what's even the point of your idea?

 

[Tarvos]

Well, I understand the idea of having a lingua franca, especially to solve matters that cross borders. And I understand why everyone studies English nowadays; it is a shortcut to a better life for most people to know English, especially in poorer countries. In Russia, everyone wants to learn English. (And sometimes, I feel a little guilty for talking to my Russian friends in Russian and stealing their Russian knowledge off of them without giving any English in return).

But to not have this choice is impoverishment. We are, as it is, rapidly moving towards full globalization and anglicisation. In the Netherlands, where most people already have a command of English beyond the required in most cases, the problem is rather that this focus on English leads the youth to neglect their other languages. For example, most Dutch children learn German at school (it is a compulsory subject for a couple years). However, most children come out of school unable to use a word of their German nowadays. This is a shame, because 50% of Dutch trade is with Germany, and a knowledge of German is essential for this trade (and for a Dutch person, German is the easiest foreign language to learn, it's even closer to Dutch than English is). But nowadays nobody bothers. The only language that is not asked questions of tends to be English (something that everyone values. And poor English is abhorred universally).

And why? Because the television does not show German programs (we can get a few German channels but not many people watch them). Because the standards for German exams have been lowered and can be passed without real effort. Because people just expect to be spoken to in English if they are dealing with anything foreign. English has prestige, and other languages do not match up to this.

That is not to say people with bad or no English don't exist (they do), and you do come across someone who has poor English, but as a rule, everyone can use it, and this level of English means that people have stopped valuing other skills. And this loss of choice is impoverishment.

I have to wonder why, with all the technological progress, with the internet, with literally every single resource to learn a foreign language at our foot (I can sit at home and listen to Swedish songs, Breton internet radio and chat in Russian), countries as a whole have decided that only English is important. It is a shame that children come out of schools not knowing any German (or French; traditionally Dutch children learn four languages) despite having studied it for five or six years, and they have a pass grade on their exams. Even if my parents or anyone else's parents were no great shakes at German, even my parents can communicate in German and they will be understood.

 

[Edoc'sil]

You know they raised Hebrew pretty much from the dead, right? And that it's an official language? Of a country? And it has millions of speakers?



That would be such impoverishment. I see the value of having English as a lingua franca (which, let's face it, it already is) but that doesn't absolve us from learning other language and immersing ourself in other cultures to understand each other better.

I hadn't been aware that it had been a dead language at one point, no. But I do think that it would have made it easier on those millions of people if instead they stuck to, say, any of the top five languages (Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, Russian) so that they wouldn't have to learn those languages in addition to Hebrew in order to communicate with those ~3 billion people.


Yes, and I'm actually attempting to learn the other four languages mentioned above (Mandarin, Hindustani, Spanish, Russian) for those exact reasons. It would make no sense to just angrily shout that everyone should learn one language because it's the best. The most-spoken language is not spoken by 6/7ths of the population, so establishing one common language would not be easy, to say the least.

 

[shy ♡]

I hadn't been aware that it had been a dead language at one point, no. But I do think that it would have made it easier on those millions of people if instead they stuck to, say, any of the top five languages (Mandarin, English, Hindi, Spanish, Russian) so that they wouldn't have to learn those languages in addition to Hebrew in order to communicate with those ~3 billion people.

??? Are you saying Mandarin/English/Hindi/Spanish/Russian should have been the language Jews are speaking in Israel? What? Are you serious? None of those languages have any relevance to Judaism. What.

 

[Edoc'sil]

Not would have been, but could have been. Making Ancient Hebrew, like ancient Greek or Egyptian, a scholarly language instead of one of the land.

 

[Minish]

Edoc'sil: But this isn't how people work at all!! You can't just decide to make everyone use the same language and expect it to stay that way fifty years down the line, for example? You can't establish one single common language for everyone that's just not possible! And there are people who don't even want to learn your language (or speak to you). Leave them to it.

If you're dead set on everyone learning English then why are you learning their languages??? To tell them that? If they're already learning English why aren't you satisfied!

 

[Edoc'sil]

*sigh* I know I'm wrong, and that it was a stupid idea. It's one of my flaws that it can be hard for me to admit that and stop arguing for a long lost cause. Sorry. .-.