Religion

[Vyraura]

if happiness was used to keep people from the truth of anything it would be just as bad as religion.

 

[Music Dragon]

it is pretty bad when people abuse it like religious institutions do

Yes. But I'm sure this delusion also inspires people to do good.

if happiness was used to keep people from the truth of anything it would be just as bad as religion.

I seriously don't understand where people get this stuff. Why is the truth more important than happiness? Truth is only good as long as it helps you in your pursuit of happiness.

 

[Vyraura]

Have you read Fahrenheit 451, Music Dragon? I do suggest it.

 

[Valor]

I did notice that the first one was a religious site, however, it seemed reliable enough as it cited its sources, and it's not as if it just included information on atheists to make them look bad - this was part of a whole section on racial, socioeconimic, and religious demographics and how much they gave to charity.

The second one doesn't seem to have any religious affiliation so I'm not quite sure where you're getting this.

Also, keep in mind that these were only the first two sources I found, there are surely more.



The point I'm trying to make isn't "Religious believers donate more than atheists do, therefore, religious believers are better people", it's "Religious believers donate more than atheists do." I understand that religious people might not have entirely altruistic reasons to donate more than atheists do, but the point is that they do donate more.

another source
a fourth source
a fifth source, ctrl+f for "religious affiliation"

No, it did NOT cite it's sources for nonreligious. Not for all the little remarks it made of "ATHEISTS JUST WANT FAME AND GLORY LOL". Don't BS me.

What the FUCK are these sources? They're even worse. Did you even read the disclaimer?

Notes: Based on respondents who identified themselves as belonging to the middle class. Not too important and not important at all responses are combined. Don't know responses not shown.

Bullshit. Load of bullshit.

The second source is even worse. They included those that rarely attend church. Way to throw off the stats.

Your third source is complete nonsense. It's about Canadian donation distribution and just briefly, in a fit of bias, says religious affiliation encourages people to donate more. Hmm, doesn't say anything about why they're donating. So, I'm just going to assume it's to be God's cheerleader.

Stop trying to make religion sound better just because you're scared they're going to come knocking at your door and give you a good whacking if you say something mean about them.

And did you even look up tithes? Obviously you didn't. That would probably clue you in on where the churches get so much money.

 

[Vyraura]

Speaking of all that money, Valor, google can amuse me sometimes.

 

[Valor]

The Catholic Church is the "richest" organization in the world because we are the denomination that is closest to God - Catholicism was founded by Jesus. I'm sure that there probably is a wealth of money, but we Catholics don't see that as the most important thing. The most important thing is that we believe and God and we are Catholic.

Hahaha...

Source(s):
I'm Catholic

Aww. Now I'm disappointed.

 

[#1 bro]

No, it did NOT cite it's sources for nonreligious. Not for all the little remarks it made of "ATHEISTS JUST WANT FAME AND GLORY LOL". Don't BS me.

What the FUCK are these sources? They're even worse. Did you even read the disclaimer?

Bullshit. Load of bullshit.

The second source is even worse. They included those that rarely attend church. Way to throw off the stats.

Your third source is complete nonsense. It's about Canadian donation distribution and just briefly, in a fit of bias, says religious affiliation encourages people to donate more. Hmm, doesn't say anything about why they're donating. So, I'm just going to assume it's to be God's cheerleader.

here's another source
and another source

Okay, so, that's what, seven sources saying that religious people are more charitable than non-religious people? Maybe some of them are unreliable, I don't know, but the fact is I haven't found a single source that states that there exists no difference (or a minor difference) between religious people's donations and non-religious people's donations. (If you can find one, please show it to me.) So I guess either religious people do donate more than more than non-religious people, and your demographic isn't perfect in every conceivable way, or the entire internet is biased in favor of religion. :|

Stop trying to make religion sound better just because you're scared they're going to come knocking at your door and give you a good whacking if you say something mean about them.

Um, what? That's not what I'm trying to do at all.

 

[Music Dragon]

Have you read Fahrenheit 451, Music Dragon? I do suggest it.

Very well. I'll read it if I ever find myself having the time.

 

[Valor]

here's another source
and another source

Okay, so, that's what, seven sources saying that religious people are more charitable than non-religious people? Maybe some of them are unreliable, I don't know, but the fact is I haven't found a single source that states that there exists no difference (or a minor difference) between religious people's donations and non-religious people's donations. (If you can find one, please show it to me.) So I guess either religious people do donate more than more than non-religious people, and your demographic isn't perfect in every conceivable way, or the entire internet is biased in favor of religion. :|


Um, what? That's not what I'm trying to do at all.

YOU'RE NOT GETTING MY POINT ABOUT THE SOURCES. WHY? I just disproved your first five sources for being flawed, and you keep bringing up more and more. I'm not even going to bother looking at anything else you bring because it's the same garbage I keep seeing every frickin' time.

However, more importantly:

but the fact is I haven't found a single source that states that there exists no difference (or a minor difference) between religious people's donations and non-religious people's donations. (If you can find one, please show it to me.) So I guess either religious people do donate more than more than non-religious people, and your demographic isn't perfect in every conceivable way

Uh uh, no logical fallacies. Not until you even show where the money goes. Oh, sure, you get your nice little banquets every now and then, maybe a few thousand to the women's shelter a year, but where does a lot of money go? Straight into the church. Because unless the donation guidelines clearly state that the money goes strictly to charity of outside organizations, they're keeping some of the money. Hell, do you know how much money a church makes on a weekend from the donations of church goers? The Catholic churches tend to make roughly $15,000 a weekend each, and this is a small town I live in. They're not even come close to using a lot of money for actual charity. Most of it is just going to stay in the church for building costs, property tax, priest and nun support, and all that.

 

[#1 bro]

Uh uh, no logical fallacies. Not until you even show where the money goes. Oh, sure, you get your nice little banquets every now and then, maybe a few thousand to the women's shelter a year, but where does a lot of money go? Straight into the church. Because unless the donation guidelines clearly state that the money goes strictly to charity of outside organizations, they're keeping some of the money. Hell, do you know how much money a church makes on a weekend from the donations of church goers? The Catholic churches tend to make roughly $15,000 a weekend each, and this is a small town I live in. They're not even come close to using a lot of money for actual charity. Most of it is just going to stay in the church for building costs, property tax, priest and nun support, and all that.

I'm pretty sure several of the sources I already showed said something to the effect of "religious people give more than non-religious people to secular charities". Let me go back and find quotes. And yes, I know you already "disproved" the sources, but I honestly don't know what your idea of a reliable source is, because I've googled for "secular religious charity" and variations thereof for about an hour total to find a Reliable Source just to appease you, and so far it hasn't worked. :|

Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization:

"Actually, the truth is that they're giving to more than their churches," he says. "The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities."

Religious people are more generous than secular people with nonreligious causes as well as with religious ones. While 68 percent of the total population gives (and 51 percent volunteers) to nonreligious causes each year, religious people are 10 points more likely to give to these causes than secularists (71 percent to 61 percent) and 21 points more likely to volunteer (60 percent to 39 percent). For example, religious people are 7 points more likely than secularists to volunteer for neighborhood and civic groups, 20 points more likely to volunteer to help the poor or elderly, and 26 points more likely to volunteer for school or youth programs. It seems fair to say that religion engenders charity in general — including nonreligious charity.

His initial research for Who Really Cares revealed that religion played a far more significant role in giving than he had previously believed. In 2000, religious people gave about three and a half times as much as secular people — $2,210 versus $642. And even when religious giving is excluded from the numbers, Mr. Brooks found, religious people still give $88 more per year to nonreligious charities.

He writes that religious people are more likely than the nonreligious to volunteer for secular charitable activities, give blood, and return money when they are accidentally given too much change.

after going through like ten pages in google, this is all I can find either way on the subject, so it will have to do for now. Although, I did find one site that argued that the reason people who go to church every week donate more than people who go to church two or three times a year is because the former group has more commitment to causes then the latter, but this site appeared to be an atheist website (it was hard to determine) so I discredited it.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

In 2000, religious people gave about three and a half times as much as secular people — $2,210 versus $642.

Okay, not to try and get involved in the debate about the reliability of your sources, but this is an unfair comparison; of course religious people are going to give more as a whole, they make up the vast majority. Atheists only make up about 10% of the population in America, and less than 20% in Europe, it's to be expected that religious people will give that much more to charity as a whole.

 

[#1 bro]

Okay, not to try and get involved in the debate about the reliability of your sources, but this is an unfair comparison; of course religious people are going to give more as a whole, they make up the vast majority. Atheists only make up about 10% of the population in America, and less than 20% in Europe, it's to be expected that religious people will give that much more to charity as a whole.

I think it means "$2,210 per person versus $642 per person". After all, I highly doubt that all the religious people in America combined can only raise $2,210 dollars for charity.

 

[opaltiger]

Atheists only make up about 10% of the population in America, and less than 20% in Europe, it's to be expected that religious people will give that much more to charity as a whole.

Try 3% in the US and at least 30% in Europe.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

I think it means "$2,210 per person versus $642 per person". After all, I highly doubt that all the religious people in America combined can only raise $2,210 dollars for charity.

Eh, I guess. It didn't exactly read too well but you're probably right.

Try 3% in the US and at least 30% in Europe.

Wikipedia lied to me!? D:

 

[Tarvos]

I am pretty sure that non-religious people in the Netherlands constitutes almost half of the population, and it's the same in the Czech Republic. Those are just two sample countries, and many other countries here are going in the same direction.

Membership of Religious Communities according to 2004 data from a 2007 SCP report[16] Religion Orientation Adherents Year Population (%)
(estimate)
Christianity 7,500,000 * 43.4 %
Catholicism 4,359,000 2006 26.6%
Catholicism Roman Catholic 4,352,000 2006 26.6%
Old Catholic Church Old Catholic 5,981 2004 0.0%
Free Catholic Church in the Netherlands Free Catholic Church 800 2004 0.0%
Protestant 3,033,831 * 16.8%
Protestant Church in the Netherlands Lutheran and Calvinist 1,944,000 2005 12%
Dutch Reformed Church in Repaired Relation Calvinist
(Hervormd) 70,000 2005 0.4%
Continued Reformed Churches Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 3,900 2005 0.00024%
Christian Reformed Churches Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 74,853 2005 0.46206%
Reformed Parishes Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 103,272 2005 0.637481%
Reformed Parishes in the Netherlands Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 21,708 2005 0.134%
Reformed Parishes (outside of relations) Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 3,000 2005 0.0%
Reformed Parishes in the Netherlands (in repaired relations) Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 1,250 2005 0.0%
Old Reformed Parishes in the Netherlands Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 18,000 2005 0.1%
Free Old Reformed Parishes in the Netherlands Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 18,000 2004 0.1%
Reformed Churches (liberated) Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 125,970 2005 0.8%
Dutch Reformed Churches Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 31,590 2004 0.2%
Continued Liberated Church Calvinist
(Gereformeerd) 1,500 2005 0.0%
Mennonite Church in the Netherlands Anabaptist
(Doopsgezind) 9,368 2005 0.1%
Remonstant Brotherhood Remonstrant
(Remonstrant) 4,581 2005 0.0%
Union of Baptist Churches in the Netherlands Baptist
(Baptist) 11,364 2004 0.1%
Brotherhood of Baptist Churches Baptist
(Baptist) 4,200 2004 0.0%
Independent Free Baptist Churches Baptist
(Baptist) 4,200 2004 0.0%
League of Free Evangelican Parishes Lutheran 5,821 2004 0.0%
Evangelican Brotherhood Lutheran 12,000 2005 0.1%
New Apostolic Church Pentecostal 11,856 2004 0.1%
Apostolic Community Pentecostal 18,673 2004 0.1%
United Pentecostal and Gospelchurches Pentecostal 19,820 2004 0.1%
Other Pentecostal Pentecostal 50,830 2004 0.4%
Anglican Church in the Netherlands Anglican 33,000 2004 0.2%
Seventh-day Adventist Church Restorationist 4,500 2004 0.0%
Gathering of Religious Dispensationalism 10,000 * 0.1%
Salvation Army Methodism 6,840 2005 0.0%
Geredja Indjili Maluku unknown 25,000 2004 0.2%
Christian Church Netherlands
(Nordic Brotherhood) unknown 2,100 2004 0.0%
Quaker * 200 * 0.0%
Liberal Religious Community NPB * 5,338 2004 0.0%
Zwingli Union * 150 * 0.0%
Eastern Orthodox 22,000 2004 0.1%
Eastern Orthodox Orthodox 22,000 2004 0.1%
Islam 944,000 2004 5.8%
Islam Islam 944,000 2004 5.8%
Judaism 35,900 * 0.2%
Nederlands Israëlitisch Kerkgenootschap Judaism 5,000 * 0.0%
Union of Religious Liberal Jews in the Netherlands Judaism 3,500 * 0.0%
Portugees-Israëlitisch Kerkgenootschap Judaism 600 * 0.0%
Hinduism 215,000 2004 1.3%
Hinduism Hinduism 215,000 * 1.3%
Buddhism 169,000 2004 1.0%
Buddhism Buddhism 169,000 2004 1.0%
No religious affiliation 7,230,000 * 42.7%

There you go. 42.7% of people have zero religious affiliation in 2004, and I know for a fact that many Roman Catholics here have started to doubt their religion. I also know that for example much of my family is officially a bunch of Catholics but none of them actually believe that much or attend church.

So half of the affiliation is "official" but most of it is fucking useless anyway.

 

[opaltiger]

Wikipedia lied to me!? D:

Well, 3% identify as atheist. And yeah, for Europe, definitely more than 20%. Sure, we have our Turkeys and our Polands but then we have the Czech Republic where some surveys show religious affiliation as being under 20%.

 

[Tarvos]

I just posted a set of stats for Netherlands which quite clearly shows that 20% as an overall stat for Europe is the bare minimum. I am pretty sure that Scandinavia is very secular, Germany is becoming more secular iirc, maybe Belgium too (VPLJ help me out here.)

I know that below the Alps everyone is a bunch of Catholics though, Italy is very religious and so are the Iberics. Greece has their Orthodox church. I wonder about the Swiss/Austrians though and maybe opal knows about Slovenia.

 

[opaltiger]

France is at around 30% and rising, UK about the same? Scandinavia has forgotten religion is even a problem in other places, everything that used to be the USSR is pretty high, the Czechs are crazy. But yes, Italy, Greece, Poland, et al. are still pretty religious (we aren't too bad. 25%ish?).

 

[Tarvos]

Well I was in Prague last summer and despite their huge religious history... these people seemed really cool to me. I'd go there again. Those Czechs are fucking nuts about how they are almost fucking disowning religion. Czech Republic is an awesome country.

Religion
The Czech Republic, along with Estonia, has one of the least religious populations in all of Europe. According to the 2001 census, 59% of the country is agnostic, atheist, a non-believer or a non-organized believer, 26.8% Roman Catholic and 2.5% Protestant.[26]


lol like 60% is not religious at all jesus that puts the rest of Europe to goddamn shame

 

[Vyraura]

I can add that about 80-90% of Scandanavia (depends on which country) 'belongs' to the protestant church of their nation but about 3% (depends on the source) actually go to church.