Rock > Ice?!??!!

[sovram]

I think 'ground' mainly refers to the manipulation of the ground and power drawn directly from the earth, while 'rock' refers to physical attacks using dense rocks and boulders.

i guess that's the most sensible, but sandstorm and ancientpower both fit that description and are rock-type. incidentally, stuff like wide guard and head smash are rock too, but they seem like they should be fighting! also, bone club and bone rush seem arbitrarily ground-type when they might fit better as rock.

but the point is that the distinction is silly, that it might make more sense just to have one "earth" type that encompasses all of that. i noticed that both rock and ground only have a handful of moves to their names.

I used to think that, and then the Roggenrola line happened.

okay, well, i did not know there was a pure-rock. but how does it change anything? it still learns ground-type moves. it doesn't seem, to me, to be more "rocky" than geodude or graveler. note that its dream ability, sand force, strengthens rock, ground, and steel type moves; i think it's the only ability that raises the attack power of more than one type, and hints to me that they realize that the types are very closely related. but this might be a very small detail.

 

[surskitty]

nosepass is also rock and not ground :V and sudowoodo

 

[ElectricTogetic]

Guys, look. Rock, Steel, and Ground types are based on different PROPERTIES of the same material. As with all the types, the types are not based on science - they are based on different ideas of these things. Ground actually IS based on the ground we walk on, and it is separate because it is traditionally viewed as fundamentally different from rocks that we throw (which is what the Rock type is based on) because it is less dense. Steel has incredibly different properties from unseparated rock, as it is harder, easier to work, and stronger.
as for the typing of the moves, in general, moves are typed in association with different pokemon. Sandstorm is Rock type because it was associated with Tyranitar when it was made. Head Smash is the pseudo-signature move of Rampardos, and it is only learned by rock types.

Anyways, there's my two cents. can we stop fighting about the way a game was coded now?

 

[Adriane]

okay, well, i did not know there was a pure-rock. but how does it change anything? it still learns ground-type moves. it doesn't seem, to me, to be more "rocky" than geodude or graveler. note that its dream ability, sand force, strengthens rock, ground, and steel type moves; i think it's the only ability that raises the attack power of more than one type, and hints to me that they realize that the types are very closely related. but this might be a very small detail.

I said that somewhat facetiously; Gigalith is very obviously the Golem of gen V, much like Conkledurr is Machamp (they're even all trade evos!). It just puzzles me that they made Gigalith pure-Rock vs. Rock/Ground. Maybe they were just trying to be charitable in alleviating it of 4x Water/Grass weaknesses, or something.

(Nosepass and Sudowoodo also exist, of course, but they don't make... un-sense to me like Gigalith does. Sudowoodo's composition seems... unusual/obscure, and Nosepass does gain Steel-typing upon evolution.)

Sandstorm is Rock type because it was associated with Tyranitar when it was made. Head Smash is the pseudo-signature move of Rampardos, and it is only learned by rock types.

Eh, I guess Tyranitar does get Sandstorm as a level 1 move, but there are others who get it via level up, too. Plus basically all rock/ground/steel-types and then some via TM. Also Emboar, Scrafty, Nidoking, Donphan, and Hydreigon all get Head Smash.

 

[hopeandjoy]

Ice > Flying is because ice freezes the wings.

 

[ultraviolet]

Guys, look. Rock, Steel, and Ground types are based on different PROPERTIES of the same material. As with all the types, the types are not based on science - they are based on different ideas of these things. Ground actually IS based on the ground we walk on, and it is separate because it is traditionally viewed as fundamentally different from rocks that we throw (which is what the Rock type is based on) because it is less dense. Steel has incredibly different properties from unseparated rock, as it is harder, easier to work, and stronger.

Okay, first of all: I am cool with steel being a separate type. Steel gives a great venue for game freak to design a whole bunch of man-made/robot-themed pokemon like magnezone and pawniard and metagross. Like, there's actually a whole theme missing to pokemon without the steel type; conceptually steel is a pretty neat type. Steel (which is kind of representative of 'metal', not necessarily just steel) has a whole bunch of cultural associations to draw from to make pokemon with - robots, ancient tools, knights, magnets, weapons - all kinds of stuff.

But the fact is, even game freak can't seem to decide what the different ideas of rock and ground actually mean. Out of the pure rock pokemon, probably only the roggenrola line are based from 'rocks we throw at things'* - cranidos is rock because fossil=rock in the pokemon world (which is inconsistent in itself as I've pointed out already), and then there's regirock, which I've already discussed. In fact, going down through all the rock-type pokemon, only a handful are based on actual rocks - and most of them are the traditional gen-1 rock-types (which, again, are rock-ground because there were no rock-types to start with). I mean, look at Crustle - it could easily be a ground-type (apparently it's hermit crab + stratum). Corsola is coral and a water/rock type, even though coral isn't a rock (it's an animal). The hard part of coral is the skeleton part (made from calcium carbonate and things) but wait no bones are apparently ground type because cubone and marowak and bone rush.

Also, lots of rocks aren't hard! Grab a sedimentary rock like limestone and you can probably break it up yourself pretty easily (you can scratch it with your fingernail and make sand).


Not going to go into how sudowoodo is an exception because. It's sudowoodo. Look at that guy. It can do whatever the hell it wants.

Let's look at ground types! sup groudon representing the lithosphere but inexplicably a ground-type, how's it going! Golett doesn't seem to make any sense - it's the automaton pokemon, which are ancient self-running machines, usually used to describe ancient robots and things, which I would think to be closer to steel than ground - but then bulbapedia also says that it's a golem (nevermind that golem means a bunch of things in pokemon apparently, which I've mentioned already). Yet none of these things represent 'the ground' in any way, really. Then you've got all the pokemon that represent sand - but wait game freak, sandstorm is rock type! More on that in a second. Then there's rhyperior, which seems to just be rock/ground purely because rhyhorn and rhydon are, even though it's covered in ~rocky~ armor. (the protector itself has the description "A protective item of some sort. It is extremely stiff and heavy. It is loved by a certain Pokémon." That sounds a lot like what you guys are saying rocks are - hard, dense stuff!)

Not going to go into gligar because. Look at it.

it can do whatever it wants Seems like game freak wanted to play with types and make a flying/ground pokemon.

as for the typing of the moves, in general, moves are typed in association with different pokemon. Sandstorm is Rock type because it was associated with Tyranitar when it was made. Head Smash is the pseudo-signature move of Rampardos, and it is only learned by rock types.

Okay, that would make sense if:
a) sandstorm only affected rock-types
b) sandstorm were an offensive move that tyranitar could take stab from
c) if it were actually the signature move of tyranitar when it was released (hello sandshrew, onix, and all the pokemon that learn it by TM in gen 2)

But it is none of these! you can't go 'oh, well ground is sand' and then have sandstorm be a rock move. That either establishes that sand is pretty much the same thing in the pokemon world as rock (and the whole world is inconsistent) or that game freak just decided to make rock and ground a pretty arbitrary divide. Power Gem is learnt by all kinds of pokemon that aren't rock types, rollout is given to anything round (apparently), spikes is a ground type... because why? o.o spikes made out of sand or mud or whatever is going to be pretty useless as far as spikes go, unless they're hard like rocks or someth-- oh wait. It's also not learned by any ground types (cheers zhorken for that one). spike cannon is also a normal type, so apparently spikes are basically anything game freak wants them to be nevermind that only holds true in english.

Anyway my point even is that it conceptually the types are so similar to each other that it really seems like game freak separated them arbitrarily for the type chart. I'm not going to argue with that decision because game freak are great and I love them, but I really think that's what's going on. Water and ice have such separate cultural meanings that there are lots of legends to draw from to make pokemon out of. This is not the same for rock and ground!

Anyways, there's my two cents. can we stop fighting about the way a game was coded now?

?_? who's fighting? I'm just interested in discussing it. If you're finding it so inflammatory then it's not like you have to participate.

*also game freak finally seemed to realise 'oh hey, gems are rock, right? neat' bless them

 

[ElectricTogetic]

But they DID separate them arbitrarily for the type chart. Rock appears to be based on the term "rock-solid," and Ground covers anything Rock that isn't considered "rock-solid." as for the Sandstorm and Crustle thing, I have absolutely no idea - I constantly confuse those two as being ground-type. So I guess some things just are.

 

[sv_01]

Seems like game freak wanted to play with types and make a flying/ground pokemon.

The Ground type is diverse. The ones that live underground can be considered the opposite of Flying. Gligar, however, is a Ground-type because scorpions live in deserts, so the only reason why Flying is weird is that scorpions don't fly. This part of the Ground type is more like the opposite of Water. Groudon makes the weather dry (X Water) and is insanely heavy (X Flying). But you know, some Water-types are part Ground just because they live in swamps, predict earthquakes or just are amphibians. And Stunfisk is in there because of the sand thing.

This is like saying that Victreebel is weird because it's Grass/Poison. The Poison type has two major branches. One is in a trio with Bug and Grass, and the other is their worst enemy.

 

[ultraviolet]

But they DID separate them arbitrarily for the type chart.

I ... I know. That's what I've been saying for the entire thread.

Rock appears to be based on the term "rock-solid," and Ground covers anything Rock that isn't considered "rock-solid."

but my point is that they did it really arbitrarily - you can't even separate them into things that are hard and things that aren't: Groudon, Nidoqueen/king, Donphan and Torterra are all rock-hard, armoured ground-pokemon. Omanyte and Omastar are pretty much the same (being squishy nautilus with a rocky protective shell), as well as Shuckle and Dwebble/Crustle, and they're rock-types.

Looking at the pokemon, you could say there's a split between things that are earth (rock) and things that live in earth (ground), but that's still kind of flimsy because where do things like Claydol come into play. But I digress!

The Ground type is diverse. The ones that live underground can be considered the opposite of Flying. Gligar, however, is a Ground-type because scorpions live in deserts, so the only reason why Flying is weird is that scorpions don't fly. This part of the Ground type is more like the opposite of Water. Groudon makes the weather dry (X Water) and is insanely heavy (X Flying). But you know, some Water-types are part Ground just because they live in swamps, predict earthquakes or just are amphibians. And Stunfisk is in there because of the sand thing.

This is like saying that Victreebel is weird because it's Grass/Poison. The Poison type has two major branches. One is in a trio with Bug and Grass, and the other is their worst enemy.

I never said anything was wrong with gligar, it just seems the odd one out in comparison to its peers (same with sudowoodo). I do think it probably came about so there could be a ground/flying pokemon because it's kind of a neat incongruity (because flying is immune to ground). it fills a niche the same way electross does! stunfisk does this too.

also I don't really get what you're trying to say about victreebel; poisonous plants are both a real thing and a really common monster archetype in RPGs. it's not as though they're incongruous like ground/flying! there are tons of dual-types that have one type being weak to another one - grass/water, grass/flying, etc. I mean, I wasn't trying to say anything in particular about gligar, it just amused me when I was going through the ground-type pokemon in the same way sudowoodo did.