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So This Is About To Get Awkward...
- Thread starter Kabigon
- Start date
TheBluejay
New member
I'm pretty sure 4th gen is the universal least favourite. I actually liked Platinum considerably more than Diamond, but it wasn't enough to keep it out of last. I did like HG, but its main issue was that it was a little too faithful of a remake and didn't fix everything I was hoping it would.
... that said, I don't hear many people saying BW are terrible. Granted, I have to admit the endgame is pretty weak compared to Emerald or Platinum, but for "first versions", it's comparable.
Haha, I can't even think of a runner up for least favorite. I also I liked Platinum waaaaay more than Diamond or Pearl, but I always seem to like the third version more.
Yeah, I agree that the end game in BW had little substance, but I didn't have any big issues beyond that. (Lack of Versus Seeker and the underwhelming Pokémon Musicals are the only other things I can think of.) So do you mind me asking why you think BW are the worst in the series? And how BW2 is going to fix those issues?
Yeah, I agree that the end game in BW had little substance, but I didn't have any big issues beyond that. (Lack of Versus Seeker and the underwhelming Pokémon Musicals are the only other things I can think of.) So do you mind me asking why you think BW are the worst in the series? And how BW2 is going to fix those issues?
Aisling
Super Moderator
Hum... I haven't really thought about it but I suppose gen IV is my least favorite, but only because it has the least Pokemon that stood out to me as ones that I really, really love. Every other gen had at least, like, three.
Only tangentially related, but my boyfriend was just saying gen V must be worst because it has an ice cream Pokemon and I'm just like "wtf, there's been inanimate object pokemon before. even food ones." So I googled it because he didn't remember any and somebody thought Sunkern is based on a "pineapple/mango"
really
Only tangentially related, but my boyfriend was just saying gen V must be worst because it has an ice cream Pokemon and I'm just like "wtf, there's been inanimate object pokemon before. even food ones." So I googled it because he didn't remember any and somebody thought Sunkern is based on a "pineapple/mango"
really
On that tangent, whenever I've spefically mentioned fifth gen to people who've lost interest in the series or the occassional 151-ist, the Vanilite and Trubbish lines are almost always brought up.
1. Luftballon
Banned
- Pronoun
- it
my common argument against "they're running out of ideas": "Gen 1 included a mole that evolved into three moles, a pokeball that evolved into an inverted pokeball, a pile of sludge that evolved into a bigger pile of sludge, a magnet that evolved into three magnets, and a two-headed dodo that evolved into a three-headed dodo."
Cerberus87
Done.
To me, Gen III was the worst.
Firstly, there were many Pokémon which were just rehashes of older Pokémon. Wurmple line was yet another cocoon, Manectric was a worse Jolteon, Aggron a worse Rhydon, Swalot a worse Muk, and so on. I have lots of Pokémon I like, but very few of them are from Gen III. Pretty much the only good things to come out of Gen III were the starters and Metagross.
Furthermore, the villains were completely retarded. It was obvious their plan wouldn't end well. I mean, flooding all the world? Drying up all the water? WTF? It was Game Freak's pathetic excuse of a plotline that dealt with environmental problems.
Third, the characters. The rivals are the absolute worst in Pokémon history. May doesn't even fully evolve her starter FFS. Wally is a pushover who fights you only twice and doesn't even have 6 Pokémon the last time you fight him. None of the gym leaders are memorable. None of the Elite Four are memorable. The champions are completely boring (really, Steven could be replaced by a rock! and Wallace tries too hard to be cool).
Four, overabundance of the dreadful water routes, and Dive.
Five, IMO they were the games with the worst competitive metagame. They didn't fix many of Gen II's shortcomings (which would only be fixed with Gen IV, like the physical/special split), introduced EVs (which broke stall teams but made the game worse in my view, and EVs stimulate cheating since they're so boring to train), and were heavily biased towards physical attackers with items like Choice Band. In fact, I think that, if the game leans more towards physical Pokémon nowadays, it's because of Gen III.
And finally, six, the RSE gym leader tune is the worst, and the remixes of Gen I's music in FRLG didn't appeal to me.
My favourite is Gen IV, because, although the first two games were lackluster, Game Freak fixed all their shortcomings with Platinum (the only thing wrong with it is that you can't catch Murkrow...), and all the new evolutions were much needed. Also, the physical/special split was the single most important thing in the history of competitive Pokémon, even more than the introduction of EVs in Gen III. It made a lot more Pokémon viable and fixed the Ghost and Dark types, which were actually reversed (Dark had mostly contact moves and should've been physical from the start, while Ghost was the opposite).
Firstly, there were many Pokémon which were just rehashes of older Pokémon. Wurmple line was yet another cocoon, Manectric was a worse Jolteon, Aggron a worse Rhydon, Swalot a worse Muk, and so on. I have lots of Pokémon I like, but very few of them are from Gen III. Pretty much the only good things to come out of Gen III were the starters and Metagross.
Furthermore, the villains were completely retarded. It was obvious their plan wouldn't end well. I mean, flooding all the world? Drying up all the water? WTF? It was Game Freak's pathetic excuse of a plotline that dealt with environmental problems.
Third, the characters. The rivals are the absolute worst in Pokémon history. May doesn't even fully evolve her starter FFS. Wally is a pushover who fights you only twice and doesn't even have 6 Pokémon the last time you fight him. None of the gym leaders are memorable. None of the Elite Four are memorable. The champions are completely boring (really, Steven could be replaced by a rock! and Wallace tries too hard to be cool).
Four, overabundance of the dreadful water routes, and Dive.
Five, IMO they were the games with the worst competitive metagame. They didn't fix many of Gen II's shortcomings (which would only be fixed with Gen IV, like the physical/special split), introduced EVs (which broke stall teams but made the game worse in my view, and EVs stimulate cheating since they're so boring to train), and were heavily biased towards physical attackers with items like Choice Band. In fact, I think that, if the game leans more towards physical Pokémon nowadays, it's because of Gen III.
And finally, six, the RSE gym leader tune is the worst, and the remixes of Gen I's music in FRLG didn't appeal to me.
My favourite is Gen IV, because, although the first two games were lackluster, Game Freak fixed all their shortcomings with Platinum (the only thing wrong with it is that you can't catch Murkrow...), and all the new evolutions were much needed. Also, the physical/special split was the single most important thing in the history of competitive Pokémon, even more than the introduction of EVs in Gen III. It made a lot more Pokémon viable and fixed the Ghost and Dark types, which were actually reversed (Dark had mostly contact moves and should've been physical from the start, while Ghost was the opposite).
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hopeandjoy
yan ya yan ya yaa iii yaaa
I'm not one for the metagame, but I'm pretty sure that EVs have existed since Gen I and that they just changed the system for them in Gen III.
For me, the worst is Gen IV. They're not bad games, but they're not as classic as Gen I, or as nostalgic as Gen II and III, or as cool as Gen V. The storyline was a good step in the right direction, though.
But Magma and Aqua were really, really dumb overall, I'll admit that.
For me, the worst is Gen IV. They're not bad games, but they're not as classic as Gen I, or as nostalgic as Gen II and III, or as cool as Gen V. The storyline was a good step in the right direction, though.
But Magma and Aqua were really, really dumb overall, I'll admit that.
Cerberus87
Done.
There's nothing "nostalgic" about Gen III. They aren't among the classics. Maybe they are for someone who started playing with Gen III, but for me, who started with Gen I, Gen I and II are the real classics and Gen III was sort of a half-assed reboot.
EVs existed before Gen III but you could max them in all stats, which to me was much better.
EVs existed before Gen III but you could max them in all stats, which to me was much better.
My first game was Yellow, and gen III is my favourite. Hoenn is beautiful, I love the Pokémon, and I especially love the music. Emerald still has more replay value than any other main series game. All of the little things just made it sparkle: two bikes, Trick House, contests, return of the Safari Zone, record mixing, and of course... secret bases. Gen 2 has seriously not aged well; HGSS were a pretty necessary remedy as I find lategame gen 2 close to unplayable.
The new EV system, tedious as it may be, was a pivotal move in competitive play. So many matchups in RBY/GSC were thrown to luck via speed ties. Between custom stats and natures, Pokémon became much more flexible and alternate sets much more viable. Plus it [gen 3] fixed a plethora of battle mechanics and offered usable items not named Leftovers.
Cerberus87
Done.
Funny how our opinions are polar opposites! All the stuff you mentioned, I don't really mind. The two bikes were interesting, but I couldn't use the Mach Bike properly. Contests, well I didn't really care for them in Gen III and subsequent games. I hate all Safari Zones that aren't the one in RBY, and the secret bases... well I built mine in really remote locations but never bothered much with them.
The Trick House was cool, though.
The main problem in Gen II is grinding, also Kanto wasn't really developed but then again it is post-game.
It may have helped competitive battles but it hurt the in-game. 31 different IVs and the natures meant it was annoying to get Pokémon with good stats, and the EVs meant your in-game Pokémon became useless in competitive play unless you stuffed them with the Emerald-only EV-reducing berries and EV trained them again. There was some stuff done right, though, with gender and shininess becoming a different value from IVs, making Pokémon viable regardless of gender or colour.
Also, the items... The real breakthrough in this department was with Gen IV. In Gen III, 90% of the competitive Pokémon used Leftovers, Choice Band, or some hard-to-obtain pinch berry.
The most welcome contribution Gen III had were IMO the abilities, and Emerald brought the icing on the cake with field effects.
I admit I was much more satisfied with Gen IV because it gave many Pokémon usable STAB moves, like Scizor. I expected Gen III to fix the fact Scizor, Pinsir, Gyarados, Sneasel and other Pokémon didn't have strong or reliable STAB moves. I was really disappointed when I learned Silver Wind was the strongest Bug-type move Scizor could learn. Gyarados was OU in Gen III but very predictable since its only good physical moves were Earthquake, Return and HP Flying, and Gen IV gave it a lot of new powerful toys.
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What's wrong with the one in Hoenn? Granted, being limited out of an area depending on which bike you have was a little annoying, but it wasn't a dealbreaker. You can't really get to everywhere in Kanto's within the step limit, either. Plus the Pokéblock machines helped get natures you wanted. That said, HGSS's was the best, not that it helps GSC's case any.
No, it's not. It might be post-credits, but it's not post-game. Johto is short. Lance's highest level is 50. To compare, Giovanni's is 55, Juan's is 46, Volkner's is 50, and Marlon's is 51. Pryce, the seventh leader's highest level is an amazing 31. Maylene, the fourth leader in Pt's highest is 32.
To make things worse, the original GSC Kanto's gym leaders, with the exception of Blaine and Green, all had rosters sub-50. Janine's Pokémon were in the 30s! To level up for Red, your only option by default was the Pokémon League. With Pokémon in the 40s. If you had a friend for Mystery Gift, you could give each other high-level battles in the Trainer House, but unless you have Game Boy Colors (or Stadium 2 for Cal), you're not Mystery Gifting.
Find a nature that isn't awful, and you're set for ingame. You still had to breed your competitive team in GSC, and you still had to EV train. You could just do it on anything you wanted. In fact, it's faster to EV train now, albeit you can't just use 10 of every vitamin to start off. Oh, and breeding was more annoying in GSC because of the incest mechanic.
And in gen II, it was Leftovers, and also Leftovers.
Gen IV's main improvement was moves, basically, yeah. Physical/special split, and BP 80ish moves for the missing types. But in ADV, 60-80 BP STABs were par for the course for many types; having a 100% accurate 95 power move was a luxury. Wing Attack/Aerial Ace, Rock Slide, Giga Drain, Brick Break... and yes, Silver Wind. Nobody was stopping you from using HP Bug. That said, I used HP Rock on Gyarados over Flying.
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Dar
oops, did it again
- Pronoun
- they
I couldn't agree more with this. And look at Blastoise. It's an amazing pokemon, and if they had made it in gen IV/V everyone would be arguing about "OMFG guns in Pokemon?! They're running out of ideas."
Cerberus87
Done.
You named it, the bike limitation. Also, in Kanto there were rare Pokémon which you could only get in Safari Zone (Scyther, Pinsir, Tauros, Dratini), which is the whole point of a Safari Zone. Adding a bunch of Johto Pokémon in Emerald which I can easily catch in FireRed is lame. And yes, this applies to the HGSS Safari Zone as well.
Pokéblocks were too gimmicky and I never really used them.
You might think East Unova is not post-game as well, since you still have to beat the champion... Well, the main storyline is beating Team Plasma. After that, it's post-game.
The Pokémon League is supposed to be the ultimate challenge. Everything past it is post-game, because theoretically your character doesn't need to prove itself anymore, Gold could've just gone home after beating Lance and not bothered about Kanto at all.
The level curve in Johto was weak because it offers you the possibility of doing either Cianwood/Olivine or Mahogany first. They sacrificed levels in the name of freedom. And Giovanni's canon highest level is 50 (Rhydon in Red/Blue), I never counted Yellow.
Anyways, levels aren't much important. Movesets are. Elite Four in RBY Kanto had higher levels than GSC Johto, but the movesets in the latter were much more advanced (Lance even cheated with Rock Slide Aerodactyl!).
Finally, even at L40, Clair was quite difficult if you didn't have something with Ice Punch. Way harder than Giovanni, whose best move was lolFissure.
This was done because it would be funny for the Kanto leaders to have stronger Pokémon than the Elite Four. Also, I raised several legendaries, Dragonite and Tyranitar (Pokémon that need lots of exp) to L100 quite easily with just the Elite Four. If you stumbled upon a Chansey with Lucky Egg and stole it, it would be even easier.
Also, there's Dodrio GB Tower in Stadium 2, Nintendo's acknowledgement that grinding in Pokémon is boring. No subsequent generation ever offered something similar.
In GSC you had a better chance of catching a wild Pokémon with already good stats, which made the difference if the Pokémon in question was Lugia, Ho-Oh or Suicune. You didn't have to reset 1,000 times to find one with good IVs and nature.
EV training was infinitely easier in GSC by battling over and over. If you didn't stuff your Pokémon with Rare Candies, your stats were very likely to be maxed out at L100.
Breeding in Gen III only became passable with Emerald's mechanics, IMO.
Doesn't disprove my argument. And Choice Band made Gen III heavily biased towards physical sweepers.
Gen II had many gimmicky items like Focus Band and Scope Lens, but at least in Stadium, they were usable (actually you were forced to use them because of item clause, but still...).
Personally one of the reasons I find competitive play annoying is Hidden Power. Rhydon was supposed to wall Jolteon, Raikou and Zapdos. Well, not anymore! Because Game Freak invented a stupid move that gives Electrics the best coverage possible against Rock/Ground types and, in many cases, a OHKO. It also made one of Electabuzz's biggest selling points over other Electrics, Ice Punch, redundant.
Also, in a battle simulator you can just click a few buttons and have your desired Hidden Power type. In the game, it's incredibly hard to get a specific HP type, and even harder to get full BP on it. Hidden Power is, along with EVs, one of the main reasons cheating runs rampant in Pokémon.
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Plenty of Pokémon, such as Dodrio, Xatu, and Rhyhorn, were only available in the Safari Zone in Hoenn. Not seeing the problem here. HGSS Safari Zone also was necessary to make some Pokémon available at a reasonable time that were otherwise obsoleted by the time you got them in GSC, such as Diglett. And Pokémon like Slugma could've been missed entirely if you didn't know exactly where to look in Kanto.
That's on you. Basically all my Pokéblocks that weren't up to scratch for contest use went to feeders.
Uh, no, it's entirely different there. You've got all the badges, you've defeated the Big Bad, you've explored the bulk of the region. Kanto is not postgame like East Unova is.
And GSC would've been pitifully short.
You could go out of order in RBY, too. In fact, you could fight Koga after Misty. Granted, Johto is still less "linear" than Kanto because of Ecruteak's location, but they did raise Piloswine to 34 in HGSS.
The AI and move distribution were also improved. And I think you're missing the point. I'm complaining that the levels are evidence that Johto is short, not that it's easy (although it is). Movesets tend to get better every game.
See above. Also gen 1 was easy period.
... why? The result was a mindnumbingly easy Kanto. Also note they did raise the leaders' levels in HGSS (because obviously they realised this).
Yeah, so did I. It's still painful to level in GSC, which has the lowest levels and no means of rebattling en masse (phone doesn't count since you could only hold 10 numbers and had to drop whatever you were doing to rebattle someone when they called). Also: the odds of encountering a Chansey with Lucky Egg? 1 in 5000.
The average player isn't likely going to have the Dodrio Gameboy.
In Crystal, it was pretty much only Suicune where soft-resetting was really viable given the others were roaming (and all three are roaming in GS). Also Lugia and Ho-Oh were uber, and uber metagame was not nearly as big back then. If you're just using them ingame... why do you care, honestly.
"Easier" in that you could battle literally anything, yes. EV training is still faster if you know what you're doing today, also you don't really need to get to level 100 anymore, which saves even more time.
Yes, Emerald helped a lot.
Okay? You're obviously ranking gen 2 over gen 3 here and I'm saying it was worse in gen 2. Also, gens 4 and 5 are far more physically-biased than 3 was.
Similarly, Hidden Power was introduced in gen 2, not 3. Having a double-weakness of any sort kind of limits your usefulness anyway. Why do you think so many Tauros carried Surf in gen 1?
I'm not going to disagree there, but that's sort of how it goes. What I really hope they'll do is just make Hidden Power BP 70 regardless and just have type vary.
Cerberus87
Done.
So? You can catch Doduo and Rhyhorn in FireRed. Doduo you don't even need the Safari Zone for.
I didn't miss Slugma in my first GSC walkthrough, in fact I even got a shiny one.
That's exactly what you do in Johto. You get all the badges, you defeat Team Rocket, you can catch Lugia/Ho-Oh and even the dogs if you so desire.
One thing that was annoying in GSC is that the Pokégear didn't register the location of the dogs...
Well a GBC cart can't store as much data as a GBA one, you know. To accomodate Kanto, they had to make Johto shorter. Although there are many complex caves like Mt. Mortar and Whirl Islands.
And Steelix was L35, stronger than Piloswine.
Not really. In his Sacred Gold/Storm Silver Gen IV hack, Drayano made Johto a lot more linear (you must go to Cianwood before Mahogany for example) and the level curve ended up very similar to FRLG Kanto, if not higher.
Johto's problem was low-level wild Pokémon and trainers, not size.
Roleplaying reasons, although you're probably right.
I found one when looking for it, didn't take long. It's the same chance of finding a Thick Club. Obviously it's a bit harder because Chansey is rarer, but I remember using Repels to help find it.
The average player isn't even going to grind!
I do.
L100 was just an example. With vitamins, you could max them out way before L100.
It only makes a difference past Gen III because in the Battle Frontier all your Pokémon are set to L50 automatically (or L100).
One area Gen III improved over Gen II, though, is that trades not only have an effect on exp but also EVs.
There's Hydreigon and Volcarona in Gen V, very powerful special attackers. Starmie, Alakazam, Gengar have always been OU, even in Gen II when Blissey and Snorlax completely walled them.
Yes but the premier use of Rhydon and Golem in Gen I was to stop Electrics. In Gen II, however, they became completely unable to do that.
There's tons of Pokémon with double weakness in OU. Scizor, Ferrothorn, Salamence, Dragonite, Volcarona... Although 4x weakness to Rock (and, consequently, Stealth Rock) is almost an instant tier knockdown, especially for defensive Pokémon such as Vespiquen.
I wish they did away with it and gave Pokémon proper coverage moves, like they did with Fearow, which has Drill Run, and Staraptor with Close Combat. But of course, that will never happen... Hopefully a serious nerf takes care of it.
Gen III was actually my first gen (late arrival :<) and by far my favorite. The only reason I don't spend more time with it is because I'm too used to the physical-special split and I want it in Gen 3. Remakes would make me the happiest person alive. (I was psyched for gen 2 remakes before I realized the pacing was still absolutely horrid. Gen 3 was better about the pacing, save the second gym.)