Socialism

[sovram]

Last thread on the subject was about 3 or 4 years ago.

Socialism versus Capitalism, where do you stand? Do you have any personal experiences?

I've been doing a lot of reading into socialism, as well as paying attention to alternative news sources, and I'm starting to see everything in a very different light.

 

[Music Dragon]

I'm Swedish.

 

[sovram]

I'm Swedish.

Which means you're doing really quite well! Means of production are still privately owned, though, right? So a mixed economy.

 

[Tailsy]

I'm Scottish.

Not that anyone takes the Scottish Socialist Party seriously (I think it's the t-shirts) (actually, it's Tommy Sheridan), but we're a lot more left than the rest of the UK, even though our majority party is the Scottish Nationalists (they sound really right-wing but aren't). I like having free prescriptions and free university tuition.

 

[sovram]

That's really interesting. Why is Scotland so left-wing compared to the rest of the UK? Will you be voting 'yes' on the referendum? I'm really quite ignorant about this, actually. But it seems like it could only be a good thing.

 

[Tailsy]

Probably because we know that if we don't vote in Labour (centrist party but better than talking lizard Tories. slightly. lesser of two useless evils) nobody else will and they'll be whining about it later. (IDK tho. everyone I know at least votes Labour if not SNP. It's probably a class thing.) Of course I'll be voting 'yes'. If you haven't seen the video where actual talking lizard David Cameron tells us we should stay? It's the slimiest thing I've ever watched. Horrible. I don't know why we haven't just sawed ourselves off the mainland yet. I'm not sure if it'll make things better, but I don't think we can get terribly much worse.

 

[sovram]

Your certainty that the Tories are actual lizards makes me very worried for the UK. I'll watch that video ASAP. And I truly wish Scotland the best of luck. I will be watching with interest and hope.

As for the US, our socialist parties just bicker with each other. I'm not sure whether they're justified in doing so, but ... I'm sure you are somewhat aware of our party situation. I voted Green last election (which I don't think is socialist but is further left than Democratic)

 

[Vholvek]

Look, I'm not real big on politics, but I'm kinda leaning towards the socialist side of things. I don't know why, but it makes more sense to me. Plus, look at the way things have gone for capitalists.

 

[kyeugh]

Look, I'm not real big on politics, but I'm kinda leaning towards the socialist side of things. I don't know why, but it makes more sense to me. Plus, look at the way things have gone for capitalists.

They're not doing too terribly, other than negative feedback.

 

[Vholvek]

They're not doing too terribly, other than negative feedback.

Uh-huh. Well, I'm sure they don't appreciate that either.

 

[sovram]

Thought I'd share this blurb in an attempt to incite some discussion.

 

[opaltiger]

Probably because we know that if we don't vote in Labour (centrist party but better than talking lizard Tories. slightly. lesser of two useless evils) nobody else will and they'll be whining about it later. (IDK tho. everyone I know at least votes Labour if not SNP. It's probably a class thing.) Of course I'll be voting 'yes'. If you haven't seen the video where actual talking lizard David Cameron tells us we should stay? It's the slimiest thing I've ever watched. Horrible. I don't know why we haven't just sawed ourselves off the mainland yet. I'm not sure if it'll make things better, but I don't think we can get terribly much worse.

I feel really torn about this. On the one hand, I suspect Scotland is probably better off without the rest of the UK. On the other hand, oh god please don't leave who else will vote in centre-left governments.

As with practically everything I suspect the answer lies somewhere in between the two extremes. But I reckon it's a lot closer to the "socialism" end of the spectrum. I'm not just in favour of things like the welfare state, universal health care, and high taxes on the highest income tax brackets; I think there is an argument to be made that opposing any of those things is unethical.

As an aside, I think it's interesting that the British Prime Minister most often cited as the greatest ever was also arguably the most socialist.

 

[sovram]

As with practically everything I suspect the answer lies somewhere in between the two extremes. But I reckon it's a lot closer to the "socialism" end of the spectrum. I'm not just in favour of things like the welfare state, universal health care, and high taxes on the highest income tax brackets; I think there is an argument to be made that opposing any of those things is unethical.

I absolutely agree with you. It's dumbfounding to me how the United States, with the world's largest national economy, can have one of the most unequal income distributions on Earth. Well, actually, no, it's not; we've put our faith in markets, and markets have failed us.

Can I come live in Scotland?

 

[Ether's Bane]

As with practically everything I suspect the answer lies somewhere in between the two extremes.

Same.

I think anywhere between approximately a 70-30 split in favour of capitalism and a 70-30 split in favour of socialism is workable.

(By the way, since the non-Americans posted where they're from, I'm Malaysian. D:)

 

[Tailsy]

I feel really torn about this. On the one hand, I suspect Scotland is probably better off without the rest of the UK. On the other hand, oh god please don't leave who else will vote in centre-left governments.

(I also have that feeling. Also, I just really want to know what'll happen if we vote 'yes'.) But god, I know. We're the only thing keeping you all from slow centre-right self-destruction and that is very, very sad. We thought you'd leaaaaarn

But sovram Scotland isn't really that great. We're kind of socialist but things here aren't exactly baller on the 'why is everyone dying of heart disease and alcoholism' front

 

[sovram]

But sovram Scotland isn't really that great. We're kind of socialist but things here aren't exactly baller on the 'why is everyone dying of heart disease and alcoholism' front

I'd rather have heart disease and alcoholism than an oppressive and exploitative capitalist system. :/

In any case, I suspect that once we successfully transfer to socialism (i.e. globally), we'd be able to tackle these issues much more effectively.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

As for the US, our socialist parties just bicker with each other.

This is true of literally everywhere. There's an old joke about left-wing political parties that goes something like "the first thing on the agenda is the split".

I'm kinda unconvinced by socialism as a solution to capitalism. It would probably best operate as a gateway drug to a transformative radical leftism, but it's in the nature of progressivist political projects like socialism that they tend to be complicit in the erasure of problems of inequality that don't fall within their immediate gaze. Kinda like how the more ground feminism gains, the harder it seems to be to convince people that there's still miles to go. So, basically, when Slavoj Zizek says our choices as a species are between capitalism and communism and quietly ignores projects geared towards tearing up the foundations of human civilisation and formulating an alternative system of social arrangements, I'm hankering for a great big dollop of the last one. Both of the others are inadequate.

 

[sovram]

This is true of literally everywhere. There's an old joke about left-wing political parties that goes something like "the first thing on the agenda is the split".

I'm kinda unconvinced by socialism as a solution to capitalism. It would probably best operate as a gateway drug to a transformative radical leftism, but it's in the nature of progressivist political projects like socialism that they tend to be complicit in the erasure of problems of inequality that don't fall within their immediate gaze. Kinda like how the more ground feminism gains, the harder it seems to be to convince people that there's still miles to go. So, basically, when Slavoj Zizek says our choices as a species are between capitalism and communism and quietly ignores projects geared towards tearing up the foundations of human civilisation and formulating an alternative system of social arrangements, I'm hankering for a great big dollop of the last one. Both of the others are inadequate.

While we're on the subject of sectarianism, I'm not at all impressed by Zizek. Maybe you should check out some movements like proletarian feminism!

I definitely don't think that capitalist oppression is the only oppression but I suspect that capitalism strengthens the gaps in racial-class and gender-class relations.