The Subculture (of stereotypes and violence)

[Tarvos]

I think many people here will be familiar with subcultures...especially among youth and teenagers, groups and movements and clusters of people tend to form that share common ideals, a common sense of fashion, of music, of art, of lifestyle basically. There have been many examples of them over the years, currently it seems that there are many labels (often wrongly applied or confused).

Since I read about the death of Sophie Lancaster I have been really interested in this topic, mainly because I feel bound to these sort of people; I have always been a loner, and an outcast, and a weirdo, and I have been picked on for being different; something that I no doubt am.

It has been widely perceived by goths as a more extreme example of the social intolerance, violence and abuse people can suffer as a result of their attachment to the goth subculture. The Observer said on 17 February 2008 that the case was one of a "rash of violent attacks targeting punk, goth and metal kids... Sophie Lancaster's case has become a rallying cry for those in the goth scene worried about this upsurge of violence."[52] This discussion of the case has led to an online petition to the Prime Minister "to Widen the definition of 'Hate Crime', to include crimes committed against a person or persons, on the basis of their appearance or subcultural interests" on the 10 Downing Street website.[54] Ade Varney creator of the petition said that goths "get verbal assaults every day, and not just from young people. But now younger teenagers have the mentality of hardened criminals and I definitely sense this violent aspect getting worse... Sophie's death has made people think and I have heard of teenagers, especially girls, modifying the way they dress when they walk through certain areas."

So a couple of things: do you see any of this happening where you live? Do you see and feel the hate and prejudice against darker or different subcultures or stereotypes (ranging from the emo to goth to hippie to whatever?) Do you feel part of a subculture? Are there any structural benefits to having them (I might post on this later as I feel like I am a part of the metalhead subculture). Do you see misnomers?

Are there any subcultures that you find perverse and or do not understand? Maybe members from those subcultures can shed light on the ideals of these movements...

I thought I would reopen this because I find the violence and prejudice and bigotry not only against for example homosexuals, but also against race or skin colour (ethnics) or against gender, I find it also applies to people who dress different; and as a person that is different, I feel it may be a mutual benefit for everyone to learn what those subcultures are about instead of dismissing them as "ugly" and or "satanic" and/or whatever.

 

[Music Dragon]

Subcultures, yes...

Most of the members of the convent were old-fashioned Satanists, like their parents and grandparents before them. They'd been brought up to it and weren't, when you got right down to it, particularly evil. Human beings mostly aren't. They just get carried away by new ideas, like dressing up in jackboots and shooting people, or dressing up in white sheets and lynching people, or dressing up in tie-dye jeans and playing guitars at people. Offer people a new creed with a costume and their hearts and minds will follow.

 

[Dannichu]

I think that judging people based on the subculture they belong to is pretty wrong, but I guess I'm guilty of it, too; I get nervous if I'm by myself and have to walk past a group of chavs.

I confess that I despise the media for creating such a moral panic around some subcultures; most of them are just normal human beings who dress differently or listen to a different kind of music.

I'm all for redefining hate crimes to include crimes commited against people specifically of one subculture or another; it's still targeted violence. I'm not sure how common physical violence is, but most kids in schools get verbally abused on a daily basis for dressing differently.

 

[EvilCrazyMonkey]

most kids in schools get verbally abused on a daily basis for dressing differently.

Most kids in schools get verbally abused for [anything].
You can replace anything with, well, anything (in fact, most of these are brought up to me almost daily):
-Being gay
-Having curly hair
-Liking math/science
-Having/lacking a certain religion
-Standing up for people who fit in the above groups
-etc.

It does not matter why the person is killed; if it involves any kind of mindless prejudice or ignorance it is (at least in my eyes) a hate crime.

 

[Amoeba]

The human population is so large, nobody can get to know one another. So you see personalities evolving within communities, where multiple people follow a single subculture to allow other people to better understand from a glance what to expect from them.

Sometimes the judgement is inaccurate and even completely wrong. Some people take it far too seriously and begin to hate/obsess over a subculture, just like almost anything else can be hated or obsessed over.

I don't believe subcultures really have all that much meaning in society. They're such subjective concepts and constantly evolving, and one can drop into or out of a subculture any time they like simply by alternating their dress and bahaviours associated with it. I think when it comes to subcultures it's rare to find someone who would have been that way anyway had they not been influenced by peers.

I do see certain subcultures in my area. Many would say 'chav' is one of them but with time I'm beginning to see chav as less of a subculture and more of a result of a certain style of upbringing by the parents, since I am beginning to see chavs as less being a style and much more a part of the personality and history of the individual. I see a chav not as how someone dresses but how they behave - forming posses and engaging in vandalism, intimidation, violence, recklessness, and generally inconsiderate behaviour with the purpose of asserting themselves.

Often children with a fairly normal upbringing may be pressured into the same kind of styles of the chavs for their own personal security, and to avoid being a target.

I see few others. Most who do not behave in a chavish way seem to follow their own individual identity path. Rarely you will see a mosher or a goth - it seems non-chav subcultures are a minority where I live so I can't really comment on them...

As for myself, I did lean towards mosher as a teenager but that was mainly in order to make friends, and because at the time I liked the kind of music they listened to so I could find some common ground.

There's another thing - I think when subcultures form it makes it easier for others to find common ground with them, to find others who like what you like. I think that's a fundamental function of a subculture.

Now, I don't fit in any subculture, they just don't work for me. My mosher side faded when I was not accepted because I did not conform to the definition of a mosher - essentially I felt I didn't have any room to grow and develop as a person, so I went my own way, away from the mosher subculture. I still kept the same tastes in dress and music but I just stopped trying to fit in. When I think back to it now, it was all just a silly drama.

I should add in conclusion I feel that a person really only belongs to a subculture if they themselves believe they do. That's partially why I'm beginning to think chavs are not a subculture because a chav doesn't have to call themselves one to be one.

 

[Dannichu]

I agree with you on the chav thing; it's more of a title given to someone fitting a certain description than a self-identified subculture; I can't think of anyone who would call themselves a chav, even though other people would think of them as one.

 

[Alexi]

Fresno is choked with gangs, so we get a lot of gang-rivalry violence. Especially in the Chuck E. Cheeze parking lot. I kid you not.

I don't really associate with any "subculture" unless you count the Pokemon fandom. :D

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Woo, something I can relate to. Me and my friends would be what you'd call a non-chav minority. I've been called;
- An emo for wearing on one occasion fingerless wightlifting gloves while walking home from the gym, for wearing a white zippy while down town and for wearing both together at a disco.
- A goth for wearing a spiked brace, for having a mohawk, for wearing a bandana and for wearing shredded jeans.

Honestly, the ignorance of the Irish chav groups and older generations when it comes to subcultures is overwhelming. If they're going to label us, they could at least label us properly.

 

[Dannichu]

Haha, I know. I've been called an emo by 14-year-old morons while wearing my full rainbow gear.
I'm no expert at where the lines are drawn between different subcultural groups, but that's just silly X3

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Also, in my art class, I was listening to my iPod (my art teacher is cool like that) and I had...either Amon Amarth, Satyricon or possibly Dimmu Borgir, though I have a sneaking suspicion that it could have been either Slipknot or Apocalyptica-

I was listening to metal anyway.

And I got called a hippie by this girl called Louise.

Then again this is the girl who brought us such memorable quotes as;
"I'm not racist I just don't like those fucking foreigners." - upon being called racist for calling my friend André a "dirty Romanian".
"No, racist means that you call people B-L-A-C-K." - upon being told that she was racist because she discriminated against André because of his race.
"..." - after calling me a retard to which I replied "Spell retard."
and of course;
"A Brit, two chinks, a nigger and a load of hippies. This is fucking stupid." - while watching Mister Nice Guy in a free class.

 

[Ayame]

I heard about that crime, and it's terrible and stupid.
Yes, I have seen people getting basically discriminated against. One boy didn't want a girl in our group because she was emo. No nonsense about modern emos not even knowing what emo music is; subcultures evolve and though they might not be true to the original at all some musicians today are generally considered to be "emo", and though I agree the term may not really apply at all to most of the music and culture today, it is so commonly used that you might as well accept it instead of whining about how it isn't emo music. (And also, almost none of the subculture is geared towards the old so yes, this is emo today, even if it's mostly people with little knowledge of the forerunners of their subculture, it still applies.)
But anyways, while discriminating on people based on their subculture is ignorant and pointless, it's how they present themselves. It's what they choose to be, how they choose to dress, what music they enjoy listening to. I'm not saying that that doesn't make crimes against these people wrong, but it does usually reveal some of their interests or personality, stereotypes aside.
People definitely shouldn't discriminate, but it's the people's choice to listen to that music and dress that way, and their appearance does send messages to people. People make lots of decisions based on appearance.

 

[Zuu]

I dunno. I'm lightly discriminated against for my atheism and my music.

Nothing big. I mean, it happens very rarely. In fact, I'm pretty bitter towards Christianity, so I tend to slightly discriminate against Christians.

 

[Tarvos]

I heard about that crime, and it's terrible and stupid.
Yes, I have seen people getting basically discriminated against. One boy didn't want a girl in our group because she was emo. No nonsense about modern emos not even knowing what emo music is; subcultures evolve and though they might not be true to the original at all some musicians today are generally considered to be "emo", and though I agree the term may not really apply at all to most of the music and culture today, it is so commonly used that you might as well accept it instead of whining about how it isn't emo music. (And also, almost none of the subculture is geared towards the old so yes, this is emo today, even if it's mostly people with little knowledge of the forerunners of their subculture, it still applies.)

It's not emo music. Period. I see emo music and the emo subculture of these days as two different things.

But anyways, while discriminating on people based on their subculture is ignorant and pointless, it's how they present themselves. It's what they choose to be, how they choose to dress, what music they enjoy listening to. I'm not saying that that doesn't make crimes against these people wrong, but it does usually reveal some of their interests or personality, stereotypes aside.

Yes, it does, because they feel comfortable being that way. They present themselves in such a way because they are comfortable wearing what they wear, listening what they listen to, Having the worldview they have. They may be interested in some things, but it doesn't mean they are actually harmful. Take metal: imagery associated with gore and violence. Crowd: some of the nicest people I have ever met. 80% of them are goddamn sweethearts.

People definitely shouldn't discriminate, but it's the people's choice to listen to that music and dress that way, and their appearance does send messages to people. People make lots of decisions based on appearance.

Humans gravitate towards surfaces and surfaces send messages, but the wrong ones. I'm not a bad employee because I enjoy Slayer.

 

[Worst Username Ever]

I don't like discriminating because of subcultures. Know what, in my class some kids can call people "emo" (it's just for a joke, but anyways) just for wearing all black. I'm SO sick of that. I haven't been called that, but it's annoying.

And, on one forum I go to that shall remain nameless, many people seem really discriminating to furries. ...I'm a furry(well, not really active in the fandom though, but I like anthros and stuff), so... I'm sick of explaining how we're not all attracted to animals and dress in fursuits. They haven't been bad to me specifically, but meh.

 

[Retsu]

I don't like to think of emo as a subculture - it was started quite spontaneously and doesn't have much of a community-type feel to it.

Compare it to the goth scene, which has been going strong for about 40 years now, has its own specific mindset and a community that is brought together through various clubs and organizations. There is no "emo" or "prep" or "chav" subculture - those are just labels with no real meaning at all.

This is what bugs me most about this.

 

[Tarvos]

You don't think metalhead is a subculture either Retsu?