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Vegetarianism/Veganism/etc.

I am a...

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    72
But animals rape and kill each other all the time; just because something's natural doesn't mean it's morally okay for humans to do it.
 
Dannichu said:
But animals rape and kill each other all the time; just because something's natural doesn't mean it's morally okay for humans to do it.
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You can't say something isn't "morally okay" because there are many, many, many different sets of morality to this subject, and there's a lot of people who's judgment differ from yours. (I'm going to avoid the "rape" part, because I completely agree with you on that point.)

I could point out that millions of animals, including snakes, rabbits, mice, voles, and many more are displaced and, yes, killed by the planting and harvesting of fruits and vegetables. Even if you plant your own garden, you have to find ways to kill invading insects, lest they destroy your crop. You can't even take a single step outside without killing something. It may be against your morals, but death is simply a part of living. Of course nothing wants to die, but that's just how the world works. Not even humans are safe.

Is someone who believes that the death of an animal isn't always a horrible thing a terrible person? Yes, the torture of an animal is terrible, but a swift, painless death for food is a different story in the minds of me and many others. If it bothers you, don't eat meat (which you've already done...so continue not eating meat. :D)

I could also go on about how humans were never meant to be strictly vegetarian in the first place, and that, in a purely natural setting, said diet would be next to impossible to pursue in the first place, but I'll spare that lecture. :P

By the way, I am not anti-vegetarian or anti-vegan. I love animals just as much as you guys do, but I really don't like it when people try to say that meat-eaters are morally inferior. It's a choice, not an excuse to get all holier-than-thou.
 
I wasn't saying that; just that "because animals do it" doesn't justify humans doing it, regardless of what "it" happens to be.
 
I think I missed something.

Your logic is that:

Rape - Natural in animal kingdom.

Eating meat - Natural in animal kingdom.

Rape - Immoral by human standards, regardless of religion. Proven to have devastating effects on victim.

Eating meat - Immoral because... why? It's also natural? I really must be missing something here.
 
I didn't say eating animals is immoral (I might've done, actually, but not recently). I'm saying that saying "animals eat animals therefore it's okay for us to do it" (the argument Eclipse used) is a bad argument because "animals do it, therefore it's okay for us to" isn't right.
 
I could also go on about how humans were never meant to be strictly vegetarian in the first place, and that, in a purely natural setting, said diet would be next to impossible to pursue in the first place, but I'll spare that lecture. :P
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Dear, in a purely natural setting you'd be living in a cave most likely foraging for local berries or something. You can't go against vegetarianism/veganism by saying it's 'not natural' because it's 'not natural' to argue about it on a computer or even wear clothes that aren't made out of animal hide or dried plants.

Generally vegetarians seem to contradict themselves.
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This is an absolutely terrible argument; You can't generalise the entire population of vegans/vegetarians by this. Every vegan/vegetarian I know doesn't eat meat out of health choice/personal taste preference first, animal rights second.

There isn't anything wrong with vegetarianism or veganism; if you do it right you can have a perfectly balanced, healthy diet and cut out a lot of health problems. Sure, humans probably evolved to eat meat, but we also evolved to be able to tolerate a varied diet. If vegetarianism (or veganism) was so bad for you, guess what, there wouldn't be any living vegetarians, would there?

Vegetarianism isn't about animal rights (in fact, a lot of the time, it's not). It's about not eating meat (or dairy or egg) products. Don't mix the two up. Animal rights might be why people do it, but it's not vegetarianism itself.

I hate the stigma that surrounds vegetarianism. I myself don't eat meat all that often - I wouldn't say that I'm a vegetarian, but I just generally prefer vegetarian food - most of the time it tastes better to me, and a lot of the food is really creative.
 
 
The fact that you began your post with this word just screams pompous arrogant bastard. And that's the one thing I hate about vegetarians. The Holier-Than-Thou attitude they develop.
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Well geez, sorry if I sounded arrogant to you. But note that for a start, I'm not a vegetarian, and you can't assume that every vegetarian has a holier-than-thou-attitude. Dannichu, for example.

Hardly generalizing.
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Also, six websites doesn't define the values of every vegetarian ever, sorry. I could find several websites that are written by racist Americans. Does that mean all Americans are racist? Of course not. You can find nice, friendly people who are vegetarians. You can find people who don't care about animal rights who are vegetarians. Anyone can be a vegetarian. People think that Hitler was a vegetarian. Danni is a vegetarian. See the spectrum? You can't assume that every vegetarian is a holier-than-thou ass who shoves their values down your throat.
 
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Eee, you're lovely X3

But she has a point. Arguing about how vegetarians "shove things down your throat" in the debating hall is a little silly. Loads of my friends don't know I don't eat meat, and I'd never dream of telling them that eating meat is wrong or evil. I choose not to. And given this is a debating thread, surely it's not unreasonable to expect people to say "And this is why I don't eat meat". And a little rude to accuse anyone who does of being small-minded, intolerant and holier-than-thou.

This is like the "all religious people are fanatics" thing. The only religious people you see out in the street are the ones waving signs saying "GOD HATES FAGS" (well, them and nuns). But, surprisingly enough, a lot of normal, well-adjusted people are vegetarian (or indeed religious), but because they don't subject you to their disturbing facts and images, you don't notice them. Why? Because they're normal people with a dietry prefence different to yours. Nothing more.
 
May I hop in to mention that 'stop saying blanket statements' has absolutely nothing to do with the actual topic?


Here's my logic.


Vegetarianism is an unnecessary burden upon your body.
-Because you can does not mean you should.
-You must go out of your way to get the correct amino acids (only meat supplies them all at once, you probably aren't getting them if you don't know what I'm talking about.)
-You must go out of your way to get a better supply of iron
-You lack an easy way to reconstruct body tissues quickly (meat's nutrients are much more spread out among non-meat proteins)

Vegetarianism is not biologically natural.
-very minor argument; mostly personal for me
-Humans evolved from other pre-humans due to the ability to eat both meats and plants. Those that couldn't hunt and forage did not evolve. Sadly this argument fails on religious fools.
-Healthy living can be acheived without much thought by eating a variety of your natural foods.

Meat is not unhealthy.
-statistics claiming as such survery entire populations
-entire populations contain many many stupid people
-vegetarianism requires conscious effort
-stupid people rarely make a conscious effort
-stupid people don't eat healthily
-unhealthy meat is easier to get than unhealthy vegetables
-meat provides the densest protein and iron supply
-meat is the only nutrient with every amino acid
-organ meats supply a very surprising variety and amount of vitamins and minerals

Meat is not immoral.
-Killing animals for food is incredibly lame compared to what else goes on in the world
---And you should be defending those more than this if that's your only reason
-Animals correctly killed have better lives and more humane deaths than wild animals
-Meat industries that are correctly raised and killed are in the minority as of now
-Not supporting either industry supports the larger industry which has more economic muscle to flex

Meat is not environmentally dangerous
-Cows do indeed produce large amounts of methane
-If this methane was captured, like it is in hundreds of smaller farms around primarily the United States (I think some in mainland europe and britain too) it would supply more power than the entire farm used.
-Meat is not wasteful of energy.
--Crops require huge amounts of water and sunlight.
--Crop-water and sunlight is not in shortage
-America alone produces enough food (counting meat, not counting feed) to feed the population of the world (if minimally)
--Management and waste reduction wastes more food than would be wasted on meat
-food unfit for humans is digestible by many animals.
-The amount of things that waste more energy (such as water, if you think that's a problem) than raising meat is god-awful




I figured I'd restate my points since it's been a while. This is not why you should begin eating meat, unless you enjoy it and only stopped for a reason listed above. It is, however, the reason why you should never encourage others to stop.
 
why would you waste your precious time promoting something with X debatable benefit when you could spend the same energy promoting X*X debatable benefit?


also just because something is 'bad' in one person's opinion doesn't give them the right to tout it as bad for anyone else.
 
I belive that being a vegitarian is okay. I also believe that eating meat is okay.

I think that we should eat fruit/veggies/bread and meat. After all, that's the best way to get a balanced diet. We were born with inscisor teeth for a reason, and that reason is to eat meat.

I'm contridicting myself, aren't I? Basicly, I understand both sides, and I believe that following the food pyramid is the best diet. I actually probably eat more meat than vegatables, though.

EDIT: I feel like I'm accidentally preaching X_X Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to tell people how to live.
 
Inscirsors? Those aren't for just eating meat, are they? Or do you mean the canines?
 
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