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Abortion

Drifloon Rocks said:
Take notes on how I debate. I don't let my emotions of anger get in the way of logical thinking (unlike you).
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Take notes on how we debate, we don't resort to low blows unless the opponent doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

For your information, killing IS bad. Try to convince me that taking a life is okay.
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You're hungry on a desert island, there are three things in front of you, a rock, an apple on a tree, and a rabbit. Which do you eat? Or do you die of starvation?

True. A fertilized egg is is alive, but it's not a life yet. Once it actually develops a brain and a mind, then it's a life. And don't try to convince me that a fetuis can't think, because at only 3 months, brain waves have been discovered coming from a fetus. None of those things compare to an unborn baby that has a brain and can actually think. That's what a life is.
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So it's okay to abort a foetus prior to three months, when it doesn't emit brain waves?

Obviously you don't respect human life at all, to call a baby a leech. You have no understanding of what life is. You have obviously never been pregnant, so you have no idea what its like. The baby barely ever hurts the mom.
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You've obviously never been pregnant. The mother has to spend nine months with an ever growing parasite inside her, weighing her down, causing things like morning sickness throughout, and eventually ending with the mother having to push the thing out of her, usually leaving the mother scarred with stretch marks.
Barely ever hurts the mum, yah.

And a fetus isn't a leech! It doesn't just suck the life and blood from a mother. Yes, it absorbs nutrients from the mother's bloodstream. That's why the mother needs to eat more- to feed herself and the baby. Being pregnant does a lot for a mother. The connection to the body is much different; the mother's brain is stimulated with hormones and the mother is much more aware. Do some medical research and you will find that being pregnant is actually GOOD for the mother.
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So what's your point? Should we be getting every woman on Earth pregnant so that she's more aware and is tantalised with hormones?

But it's not only your body; it's the body of the baby. Don't you understand? It's not all about you and what you want. If you don't want to raise a child, then adopt it out! If you don't want to get pregnant, then take birth control pills! Make the man wear a condom! I don't care! Unless a woman is raped, she has a choice to become pregnant, and she has a responsibility to keep that life safe inside of her. If she was raped, then so what? If she can't or doesn't want to raise the baby, then she should adopt it out.
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... What the hell?
No seriously, what the hell? It isn't a simple case of "adopt out", that woman has to carry around an ever growing parasite that may have been caused by accident or against her will for nine months, then go through the pain of child birth, only to give it away to an adoption home, when all of it could've been avoided by simply aborting a foetus that wasn't even aware of it's own damned existence?
What the hell, man?

Underdeveloped as it may be, it's still has a soul. Destroying a soul is NEVER okay.
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Souls don't exist.

I do care about the life of the mother. I know it's emotionally stressful to be pregnant, but physically, it's GOOD FOR THE MOTHER. The fetus isn't just a blob of tissue, it's a human with thoughts. Maybe not intelligent thought, but thought all the same. I know that many so-called "pro-lifers" still abort their babies because it's "convenient". Does that make it okay? The mother isn't thinking about the baby. She's only thinking about her own convenience over a life.
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The mother is the one who has to carry it around for nine months, and has to call for maternity leave in her job. It's the mother's career and life that suffers from child birth.
Gees, you repeat things a lot.

Think about this. You were once a fetus. Your mother did not kill you before you were born. And now you have a life. A fetus may have the potential for a life, but squandering that potential just because it's "inconvenient" is wrong.
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My mother didn't kill me before I was born because she wanted to have a child at the time. Some people do not because it will interrupt their career, general life, and if they were one of the unlucky people who get pregnant during their teens, their education.
Inconvenient isn't strong enough a word.

If one day, you were given a hamster to take care of, but you didn't want to, what would you do? The hamster would never hurt you. In fact, it's actually good for you. But you don't want it. So what do you do? Kill the hamster? Or give it to someone who wants it? That's what abortion is. Killing something just because you don't want it. And adoption is giving it away so it has a chance at life.
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The difference between a foetus and a hamster: a hamster is alive and aware of its surroundings, and will cause no damage to my person when I'm given it, a foetus isn't aware of it's surroundings, can just about barely be called an organism at early stages and will cause pain to the person who gives birth to it.

If every woman decided that she didn't want to have a baby, and had an abortion, then humans would die out.
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Stupid argument is stupid.
 
hey, driftloon rocks, guess what?
no one shares the same morals as you do.
just because you think it is wrong does not mean that all the world has the same opinion as you. if the mother does not have the same morals as you and wants to abort the baby, by all means, go ahead. it will save her pain and stress.

oh and by the way, the baby is a leech, no matter what way you want to define "leech" and "baby." you can either continue to be ignorant and tick us all off, or you can learn something. hard choice :/
 
A miscarriage isn't the mother's fault.
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Well, if you commit manslaughter it isn't your fault either. Also, you haven't answered my question: would you charge these women with murder?
 
Drifloon Rocks said:
A miscarriage isn't the mother's fault. How is killing the baby while its in the womb different from it being outside? It's still a baby.

I don't know. It seems that everyone else here likes the idea of killing babies. There's nothing I can do about it. And since I'm the only one that actually believes killing babies is wrong, you have no more reason to argue. Go get pregnant and kill your babies for all I care. >:(
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Actually, I think most of us are in favour of not having babies in the first place but in the disgusting and unfortunate scenario that we somehow manage to get someone/ourselves pregnant we'd rather not have it.

I think everyone would prefer that people didn't have abortions but the fact is sometimes birth control fails [also there are special circumstances such as um rape even if you think it's no big deal].
 
Drifloon Rocks said:
How is killing the baby while its in the womb different from it being outside? It's still a baby.
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The baby on the outside can survive on its own. Perhaps not for long -- I doubt it can find much to eat -- but it has developed enough to be able to run its own organs without having to draw directly from another being.

Further complicating this is that human children are born not fully-cooked due to the size of our heads, but birth is a decent practical line to draw; you've had nine months, you knew you were pregnant, and you didn't do anything about it, so you have implicitly accepted responsibility.

Drifloon Rocks said:
I don't know. It seems that everyone else here likes the idea of killing babies. There's nothing I can do about it. And since I'm the only one that actually believes killing babies is wrong, you have no more reason to argue. Go get pregnant and kill your babies for all I care. >:(
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Ah, pouting. I take this to mean you have no rebuttal?
 
Hmm, Valor, Altmer. Resorting to flaming me, are we?
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if people listened to me more often the world would be a better place

RIGHT

Valor, Altmer, don't call em a pompous ass any more.

Drifloon Rocks, stop being condescending because you are only proving that you have no way to counter the arguments being thrown against you. Debate properly or gtfo. Also, stop mini-modding we can do our jobs just fine.
 
A fetus is nothing more than a clump of cells. It doesn't become more that that until 3 months, in my opinion. Clumps of cells aren't living. Especially leaching clumps of cells. In other words, what everyone with half a brain has said in this thread.
 
This debate summed up:

pro-lifer said:
Killing babies is wrong, no matter what you say.
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cool kid said:
It's a fetus. Fetuses aren't babies. It's not killing, because it's not alive. Abortion has nothing to do with killing or with babies.
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pro lifer said:
But still, it COULD be a baby! It has the chance to be a baby! Abortion is not giving it the potential to live!
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Okay, this is ridiculous. Yes, aborting the baby is disallowing the fetus inside you the chance to become a human. Taking the morning-after pill is disallowing the sperm-egg combination inside you have the chance to develop into a human. Wearing a condom is not letting the sperm inside your balls develop into a human. Not having sex is making sure all your sperm never grow into humans. Every time you ejaculate, an immense number of sperm have the potential to be a human, but don't get to be one.

Abortion is just cutting it off further down the line. It's like... uh, imagine I am sitting around one day and say "hey, I should paint a picture of the tree outside". Then, instantly after the thought enters my head, I say "nah, that's pointless". That's what using a condom is like. Now, imagine I decide to paint the picture of the tree, gather up some oil paints, an easel, etc, and start to take it outside to my backyard when I suddenly realize "nah, I have better things to do". That's what abortion is like. Just stopping a bit further down the line.

And furthermore, the baby doesn't care that it never gets to be a human, because once you do get an abortion, there is no baby. The baby never existed, the baby never will exist. It's just like how, if my mom and dad had decided to have sex October 8th instead of October 9th* I would not exist. I would never have existed. There would be no such person as Zeta Reticuli. There would be someone else. Same as if my mom had decided that she didn't want to have me after all, and got an abortion. There would be no such person as Zeta Reticuli, there would have never been a such person. But I wouldn't care, because I wouldn't be alive to know about it.

Oh, AND: saying that no one should be able to get an abortion because you personally find it immoral is like saying that meat should be illegal because you're a vegetarian.




*those aren't the exact dates I'm sure, it would be creepy if I knew that
 
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