BtVS Club

[Dannichu]

Whoo and hoo; I managed to not spoil something for you! I love Oz's tinyness.
And, oh god, the Larry conversation killed me. And it kills me again when it's brought up in Earshot. I love Larry.

Spoiler: everything, including the final ep

I cannot believe they killed Anya. I know Joss wanted to kill someone, but... it was horrible, and I especially hated the way nobody really seemed to care. I mean, Joyce got an entire episode about how much everyone missed her, and while most character's reactions to Tara's death annoy me greatly (Buffy didn't seem to care even though she was crying her eyes out on Tara's lap not three episodes previously, Tara was Dawn's surrogate mother and she didn't seem to care), at least Willow had the decency to try and destroy the world in her grief (I understand that that's the last thing Tara would have ever wanted, but dammit, I was so sad after she died I wanted to kill something in my rage/grief), but Anya... nothing. Even Xander didn't seem to care!

But I'm so, so glad she managed to come full-circle before she did go. Series seven wasn't very good to anyone, especially with all the focus on the Potentials, and Anya was the only character, I thought, who got better (except Andrew, but I have issues with him). In a way, I guess that's why she was singled out as the one to die - aside from everyone adoring her because she was so great (thus making the pain of her loss greater), she had reached a point of absolute brilliance, and the only thing the writers could do from there was to kill her.
I guess the same's true of Tara; I read on a Buffy-essay-site (which has since gone down) an analysis about how Tara faced all her fears; connecting to someone else and accepting that she deseves to be loved, facing her family and her secret, going through Glory's brain-suck, being strong enough to leave the person she loves more than anyone else in the world... that after her character had come full-circle and become, essentially, the heart of the entire group (not to steal Xander's title, but Buffy cried out her greatest secrets on Tara's lap for a reason), the only thing they could do was kill her. God, I hate TV writers )<

...uh, just think about it this way - think of all the fun you'll have reading all the spoilered-out stuff here when you're done with the series! (sorrysorrysorry)

 

[Harlequin]

Whoo and hoo; I managed to not spoil something for you! I love Oz's tinyness.
And, oh god, the Larry conversation killed me. And it kills me again when it's brought up in Earshot. I love Larry.

Spoiler: everything, including the final ep

I cannot believe they killed Anya. I know Joss wanted to kill someone, but... it was horrible, and I especially hated the way nobody really seemed to care. I mean, Joyce got an entire episode about how much everyone missed her, and while most character's reactions to Tara's death annoy me greatly (Buffy didn't seem to care even though she was crying her eyes out on Tara's lap not three episodes previously, Tara was Dawn's surrogate mother and she didn't seem to care), at least Willow had the decency to try and destroy the world in her grief (I understand that that's the last thing Tara would have ever wanted, but dammit, I was so sad after she died I wanted to kill something in my rage/grief), but Anya... nothing. Even Xander didn't seem to care!

But I'm so, so glad she managed to come full-circle before she did go. Series seven wasn't very good to anyone, especially with all the focus on the Potentials, and Anya was the only character, I thought, who got better (except Andrew, but I have issues with him). In a way, I guess that's why she was singled out as the one to die - aside from everyone adoring her because she was so great (thus making the pain of her loss greater), she had reached a point of absolute brilliance, and the only thing the writers could do from there was to kill her.
I guess the same's true of Tara; I read on a Buffy-essay-site (which has since gone down) an analysis about how Tara faced all her fears; connecting to someone else and accepting that she deseves to be loved, facing her family and her secret, going through Glory's brain-suck, being strong enough to leave the person she loves more than anyone else in the world... that after her character had come full-circle and become, essentially, the heart of the entire group (not to steal Xander's title, but Buffy cried out her greatest secrets on Tara's lap for a reason), the only thing they could do was kill her. God, I hate TV writers )<

...uh, just think about it this way - think of all the fun you'll have reading all the spoilered-out stuff here when you're done with the series! (sorrysorrysorry)

Spoiler

Oh my God I know. When I read that she died I was like "eh" but then I forgot all about it and watched the rest of the series... and I'd forgotten she died by the time it happened. I was gob-smacked. Killing Anya was the only thing they could do. As a writer I appreciate that and I understand it.

As a viewer I wanted to kill something. She was amazing. By far the best character. I felt a bit disappointed with the way Tara's death was handled, too. I mean. Okay, Willow destroying the whole world was a bit more pressing, but surely someone not-Willow could have cared?

She died when she like, finally understood humanity and what it meant to be human again... which is tragic but also incredibly beautiful in a way. Do you think so?

 

[Dannichu]

(I'm reeeeeally sorry, non-Harle-people for all the spoilery stuff ><
But, seriously, don't read.)

Spoiler

She died when she like, finally understood humanity and what it meant to be human again... which is tragic but also incredibly beautiful in a way. Do you think so?

Spoiler

Oh god, absolutely. That's an absolutely beautiful way to put it. I'll stop quoting the Top 100 Moments list one day); but this bit about Anya in the episode End of Days, titled "Anya Keeps Fighting" sums it all up, I think:

"Humans are screwed up, "in a monumental fashion," Anya observes, giving us her thousand-year old viewpoint. "They have no purpose that unites them, so they just drift around, blundering through life until they die. Which they KNOW is coming, yet every single one of them is surprised when it happens to them." She continues on in her traditional Anya way, following up her derisive remarks with one straight from the heart, and we finally understand why Anya doesn't run from apocalypses any more; she's human, and despite her better judgment (and vehement denial) she wouldn't have it any other way. This is the climax of Anya's story arc, not only for this season but really for her entire character since she lost her powers way back in the third season. It's a wonderful speech, made more so when you realize that Anya is, in essence, delivering her own eulogy. I think Andrew put it best: "That was kind of beautiful.""

And re: Tara's death, I was furious with Dawn for not caring as much as she should have. Tara was the only person who made time for Dawn, even in the middle of what must've been the hardest thing to do in her already difficult life (leaving Willow). And then, two hours after sitting curled up in her room with Tara's dead body, she's happily (albeit worriedly) wandering around with Clem. And she doesn't mention Tara once in series 7. Outside of the context of Willow, nobody mentions her. My absolute favourite thing about series 6 was how much Tara became her own person, independent of Willow (not that I don't adore them as a couple, I just love Tara by herself and that she was allowed to be her own person), but as soon as she's killed, she's just "Willow's dead girlfriend". Why, writers? Why?

 

[Harlequin]

(I'm reeeeeally sorry, non-Harle-people for all the spoilery stuff ><
But, seriously, don't read.)

Spoiler

Oh god, absolutely. That's an absolutely beautiful way to put it. I'll stop quoting the Top 100 Moments list one day); but this bit about Anya in the episode End of Days, titled "Anya Keeps Fighting" sums it all up, I think:

"Humans are screwed up, "in a monumental fashion," Anya observes, giving us her thousand-year old viewpoint. "They have no purpose that unites them, so they just drift around, blundering through life until they die. Which they KNOW is coming, yet every single one of them is surprised when it happens to them." She continues on in her traditional Anya way, following up her derisive remarks with one straight from the heart, and we finally understand why Anya doesn't run from apocalypses any more; she's human, and despite her better judgment (and vehement denial) she wouldn't have it any other way. This is the climax of Anya's story arc, not only for this season but really for her entire character since she lost her powers way back in the third season. It's a wonderful speech, made more so when you realize that Anya is, in essence, delivering her own eulogy. I think Andrew put it best: "That was kind of beautiful.""

And re: Tara's death, I was furious with Dawn for not caring as much as she should have. Tara was the only person who made time for Dawn, even in the middle of what must've been the hardest thing to do in her already difficult life (leaving Willow). And then, two hours after sitting curled up in her room with Tara's dead body, she's happily (albeit worriedly) wandering around with Clem. And she doesn't mention Tara once in series 7. Outside of the context of Willow, nobody mentions her. My absolute favourite thing about series 6 was how much Tara became her own person, independent of Willow (not that I don't adore them as a couple, I just love Tara by herself and that she was allowed to be her own person), but as soon as she's killed, she's just "Willow's dead girlfriend". Why, writers? Why?

Non-Danni people: I'm sorry :( it's just that the entire thing is more interesting than like the first two seasons :(

Yeah, I can totally agree with the top 100 moments list there. Anya's death was painful, raw and tragically beautiful. She died secure in the knowledge of her own humanity and she finally realised just why the rest of the Scoobies kept on fighting. Such a powerful moment and a fitting end for her, I guess. It's sad not to see her but it couldn't have gone down any other way.

I felt that Tara's death was treated as simply a catalyst for furthering Willow's development and storyline rather than a tragic even in and of itself. Tara had progressed as a character to the point when it was no longer "Willow and Tara" but "Willow" and "Tara" as two separate, connected entities. And then season seven fucked that one up. Dawn should have been way more upset than she was and everyone should have felt the hole that Tara's death left.

Having Tara's death just be a plot device is sick, in my opinion. As a character she fit perfectly into the Scooby group and became beloved by fans and characters alike. Her death should have been something more than a reason for Willow to cross over into Dark Willow territory.

 

[Dannichu]

Spoiler

I read it somewhere, I think on Wiki, that when asked about the nature of Anya's death, Emma Caulfield said something like "It was sudden, blunt and to the point. And in that way, I think it was the perfect end for Anya." And while I hatehatehate that she died at all, she was right; it was very fitting.

I also thought it was very sweet that Andrew, who spent all of s7 making up stories and telling lies to make himself feel better and to justify his own actions, told Xander "She died saving me"; the first selfless lie he said.

You're not the only person to have a problem with Tara's death being used simply as a way to advance the plot. The fact that they killed her off in the first place; the manner in which they did so and the events that occured in its aftermath all played directly into a whole host of terrible stereotypes involving lesbian characters. There's an excellent (but slightly long) essay about how terribly Tara's death was handled here, outlining (among other things) how Willow and Tara had the first gay relationship most kids ever saw on TV, and the damage it did to see them torn apart so violently.

Actually, funny story (I don't think I've told anyone this before); even though I only watched Buffy last year, when I was younger, during my "I must seek verification" period I think every LGBT kid goes through (where they look high and low within all kinds of media for people like themselves), I found a video on Youtube that basically had clips of a bunch of lesbian characters from film and TV on, and one of them was a scene with Willow and Tara (though I didn't know this at the time). All the clip of them was was a short bit from Seeing Red where they're out of bed and newly-dressed and Willow pulls Tara close to her by her beltloops for a kiss and a hug.
14-year-old me thought that scene was absolutely beautiful - virtually all the other clips in the video and others like it were of things like passionate kisses, which were nice, don't get me wrong, but the closeness and domesticity of that little gesture and the kiss they shared really stayed with me. When I actually started watching Buffy last year, I loved Willow and Tara from the get-go (and not just because it was a lesbian relationship), but I didn't actually realise that the scene I loved so much from when I was little was of Willow and Tara. Until I actually saw it happen in the episode.
I knew that Seeing Red would be the episode of Tara's death thanks to a spoiler I read about Amber Benson only making it into the credits for that one ep, but when I saw the tugging and the kissing and the hugging, I remembered it perfectly from that little video I used to watch whenever I felt lonely... and then realised that Tara would be dead within the next few minutes. And then she was. And my hurt that my absolute favourite character in anything, ever, was dead was totally compounded by the fact that this one little scene between two anonymous girls that I used to cling to actually took place only moments before one of the girl's violent murder.

...and it still makes me sad ):

 

[Butterfree]

Hee, I love Xander episodes. And Cordelia is somewhat improving! At least she's gotten rid of her stupid friends now.

I liked Amy turning Buffy into a rat. Prophetic irony much? x3

And then Passion. Oh, God.

Spoiler

Annoyingly, I knew Jenny would die because one of the Critically Touched reviews just had to blab about it, but still. ;_; And Giles was so cute about it and all oblivious and I screamed at him "NO THIS IS WAY TOO ROMANTIC TO BE REAL WAKE UP AND BE SUSPICIOUS DDDD:" Aaaah. And that floppy just fell... I'm guessing they find it again somehow anyway but damn. And good God, Angel is creepy as hell and really evil and disturbing. ;_;

 

[Dannichu]

It's weird, but the Xander episodes always seem (to me) to be the really terrible ones; I'm looking especially at Go Fish, but Inca Mummy Girl was fairly awful, and I really want to like The Zeppo more than I do.
That said, I really loved The Replacement in S5, so they're not all bad. And I now realise you're talking about Bothered, Bewitched and Bewildered (or something to that effect; I never remember the episode title) and that one's funny as hell, but I can't enjoy it as much as I'd like to because I spend the whole time feeling so terrible for Willow D:

It's strange how many times Amy can appear and yet we never know that much about her. I think she appears in every season but 5 and 7.

Yeah, the Critically Touched reviews aren't safe just because you've seen the episode the review's actually reviewing; I'd wait till you've seen the whole season before looking through, and even then it's a bit risky.

Spoiler: Passion

That bit in Passion is just beyond cruel. I also yelled stuff at the television, in the totally unrealistic hope that it would in some way change the onscreen events because it just seemed too horrible to sit back and let it happen D:

As an aside: I kept calling Passion "Passions" and then thinking "Why am I doing that?" before remembering that's the TV show that Spike watches (occasionally with Giles/Joyce). Oh dear XDD

Given that Butterfree's the person who's seen the least of anyone here (iirc, Harle and I have seen it all, PK's partway through S6, Cirrus is waiting on the second half of S5 (good girl!) and Salamander's mostly through S4 (if you're reading, did you like Who Are You??), should we say we don't need spoiler tags for any episodes from the beginning through to what Butterfree's seen? All these spoiler tags give me a headache ><

 

[Butterfree]

It's weird, but the Xander episodes always seem (to me) to be the really terrible ones; I'm looking especially at Go Fish, but Inca Mummy Girl was fairly awful, and I really want to like The Zeppo more than I do.

Oh, I know. I just like Xander and whenever there's a Xander episode, he gets himself into some sort of really messed-up trouble, usually of a sexual nature, and makes a lot of cute freaked-out faces at whoever is available while being hilarious. I'm easy to please that way.

I found Go Fish reasonably amusing; could have done without the casual joking about gang rape, and the plot was stupid, but there was some pretty hilarious dialogue in there. That and while watching it I was curled up in bed with Shadey and that tends to make for warm and fuzzy memories.

Willow, I knoooow. She needs to get over Xander so I can stop going "Awwww! D:" at practically everything. She's so sad and adorable, even when trying to axe-murder him.

So we finished season two! I Only Have Eyes For You was pretty cool for the whole psychological parallels between the ghost and Buffy and so on. And the finale was epic and I have recently realized that I love the way that Buffy sets things up. Like Angel liking to psychologically torture his victims for fun by murdering their families - it came out naturally in relation to Drusilla, without seeming like it was setting up for anything, and then when Angel started doing it to Buffy, it didn't seem like a cheap excuse to have the villain not kill her because it had already been set up to feel like what he'd do. And likewise, Spike's dislike of Angel was set up really well throughout the second half of the season as comic relief and villain character development and then made it feel natural for him to team up with Buffy at the end, something that would have felt contrived and clichéd if it hadn't been set up that way. :3

...now I'm wondering how in the world they get Angel out of that hell dimension thing, because I saw him in some episode we watched. Well, that and he has his own spin-off series that can't really happen when he's presumably in Hell on the receiving end of some eternal torment since he had his soul back by the time he was pushed in there. (Ouch.)

The scene where Drusilla got very into kissing Giles as Jenny and the reactions from Spike and Angel really amused me.

(Now we need to get to season threeee. I am dying to show him Band Candy. And, well, just to see it again in general now that I have a better idea of who the characters are and what is going on.)

 

[Dannichu]

he gets himself into some sort of really messed-up trouble, usually of a sexual nature, and makes a lot of cute freaked-out faces at whoever is available while being hilarious

He does; he does. XD

I have to say, I like Buffy (the series, not the character) better when the main three sort out and get over all their attractions to one another. Given the Scoobies can never have a relationship with someone outside of the group without it being romantic/familial (I'll never understand what took people so long to get that Willow and Tara were more than friends - Scoobies aren't allowed to have friends! Only, as Anya would put it, "orgasm friends"!), I like that they can have a nonromantic friendship with one another.
Well, that and I adore Tara and Anya to bits, and my Big Scooby Family needs them in.

The series two finale was excellent. I knew you'd enjoy (totally the wrong word there, but can't think of a better one) Angelus, he's such an excellent villian. In fact, he's pretty much the embodiment of the TVtrope "Absolute Monster", where they've done such a good job of showing you how absolutely, totally evil he is that you really, really want him dead.
I agree with you on how amazingly well stuff is set up waaaaaaay in advance (a major plotline in season six is set in motion five seasons before it actually happens), although I often don't notice it till my second or third playthrough, which often makes me go "OOOOOHHH!" and then everyone stares at me.

Series threeeeeee~ Is GOOD. It's generally regarded to be the best season, and while I don't personally agree (I don't know what my obsession with series 4 is; nobody seems to like it anywhere near as much as I do), I totally agree with whoever said that while S2 had the excellent overarching plotline, and S4 had the brilliant individual episodes, S3 has both.

BandCandyBandCandyBandCandy <333333

 

[Butterfree]

Aaand now we've watched season three through Band Candy! The existence of Band Candy has been making me giggle uncontrollably at every scene Joyce and Giles are in together while Shadey had no clue what was so amusing, so it's probably just as well we've gotten that done and I can be normal again. Except, well, I guess it's more giggleworthy after the fact, so I suppose he will have to live with it. Band Candy is one of those things you watch and can just see how much fun everybody was having. I know if I were over forty and got to act in an episode like that, it would make me feel young again for weeks.

Oh, and I have absolutely no ear for accents so I didn't actually notice it the first time I saw it, but I love how Giles goes all Cockneyish when he's in teenage mode.

The Mayor kind of confuses me at the moment, but I expect everything will be clearer soon in that regard. Incidentally, though Dead Man's Party was rather meh as an episode, the scene where Giles was in his car going "'Oh, look at my mask! Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead!' Americans!" was really amusing. And Faith is kind of fun, though it's hard to reconcile her current maybe slightly overly violent self with the one in Who Are You?. I suppose something must happen to make her go very batshit, and I'm looking forward to that.

Oh, and I also loved Giles threatening Principal Snyder. Let's just say Giles doing most anything one wouldn't immediately expect of the British librarian mentor tends to make me giddy. I wonder if the entertainment value of that will ever wear off.

Angel's return seems a bit strange to me; he's barely been gone for five minutes when he suddenly reappears, and so far we haven't gotten any sort of an explanation for just why he was suddenly released from the Hell dimension. Hopefully that's upcoming.

Now, Willow and Xander. Why can't they keep their hands off each other now? D: This can't end well, can it? Nyeeergh. I love them and still kind of ship them, but they're dating other people! They need to decide what they want already. I don't really agree with the Critically Touched guy on it being out of character for them, per se, since it has been quite clear since the beginning that they had feelings for each other and their reaction after kissing struck me as making up for the general concept of them cheating since they are clearly horrified by what they just did. Continuing the advances in Band Candy stretches it a bit more, but it's still a flaring-up-crush thing that I insist has been simmering very shortly beneath the surface more or less constantly since season one, and I can buy it. I just hope it gets resolved in a decent way.

(Also, I really liked that counselor. It's annoying they killed him off. D:)

(Also also why did they have to put the shot of Giles sniffing that rose in the opening credits? Now it's bringing back cringey memories in every episode. D:)

 

[Dannichu]

Hahaha; the "Look at my mask! Isn't it pretty? It raises the dead! Americans!" line makes me absolutely die laughing every time I hear it (and I've rewatched the episode just for it before); the only line I can think of that could possibly beat it is the immortal "Tiny, tiny babies!" one. Oh, Giles <333

I really love episodes where you can tell the actors are all having a fantastic time. The Wish, for example; I've read a couple of interviews where the actors said how much they loved being evil for an episode (or two, in Alyson's case). And the S6 episode Tabula Rasa (which I, possibly irrationally, love; it's the one right after OMWF), where the actors get to be all out-of-character again and it's the funniest thing ever.
While Giles and Joyce undoubtedly steal the show in Band Candy, I have to give massive props to the guy who plays Snyder; his lines are funny on paper, but the way he says them makes them hysterical. "Summers, you drive like a spaz." Teehee.

Teenage!Giles' cockney accent is doubly funny because that's ASH's default accent (also the one he imparts to James Marsters). Most of the things I've seen him in have him use his Giles-voice (Imagine Me & You, Merlin), but it's always such a treat to see him be all working-class (he's a wannabe terrorist in an episode of the BBC drama Spooks (basically 24, only British) and I couldn't take him seriously at all). Actually, if you never, ever want to be able to look at Giles in the same way, take a look at this picture, of him performing... a certain musical in the West End.
I freaking love ASH.

Uuuuh, I'm not 100% sure we ever actually do get any explanation for Angel's unprompted resurrection. I remember it really confusing me at the time, but I also remember us skipping a few Angel-centric episodes because none of us found him particularly interesting. So I dunno.

I always thought that the Willow and Xander thing was a little OOC; mostly because Willow's an absolute stickler for rules and having her cheat seems a little odd (she wouldn't cheat on a test, it follows that she wouldn't cheat on her boyfriend), and while the "formal clothing!" scene was sweet, I'm not sure I buy Xander's sudden, inexplicable attraction to Willow, after blatantly only seeing her as a friend since they were six years old. Betrayal's quite a big theme in S3, and kinda continues on through the series. One of the (many, many) reasons I utterly adore Tara is she's pretty much the only character in the whole show who never, ever cheats. And given how gays are almost universally portrayed as totally promiscuous on TV/in film, it was a refreshing change.

I hated the Giles with rose in the credits, too >< But some of the scenes they pick for the credits in some seasons are fantastic; series 4 (maybe 5?) has a clip from Giles' presentation in Hush, where he holds up his finger dramatically while a slide saying "THEN!" is on his projector, which makes me giggle every time, and, also from Hush, the clip of Spike giving the two-fingered salute made it onto the opening credits, which amuses me because clearly that gesture isn't as offensive in the US as the UK. Also brilliant are the clips from Fear, Itself that make it into the S4 credits for Emma and Anthony; Anya in her bunny suit and Giles with his chainsaw. Awesome stuff.
The series 6 credits had Xander doing his Snoopy dance, which I utterly love, and in series 5 and 6, the Willow clips are almost all Willow/Tara clips and though the reasoning makes me angry (presumably to make up for Tara not being allowed to be a main character in her own right), getting to squee over my favourite couple every time the credits run is of the good.

...and I've just analysed the opening credits far, far too much so I'm stopping now.

 

[Butterfree]

I really love episodes where you can tell the actors are all having a fantastic time. The Wish, for example; I've read a couple of interviews where the actors said how much they loved being evil for an episode (or two, in Alyson's case).

Oh, yes. I love watching other people having fun. The Wish was a great case of this as well; it's going to be fun to see it again (if I remember correctly, it was the third episode I saw with you after Once More, With Feeling and Hush, so at that point I was still a bit confused about the characters and so on - I remember I had completely forgotten who Cordelia actually was).

While Giles and Joyce undoubtedly steal the show in Band Candy, I have to give massive props to the guy who plays Snyder; his lines are funny on paper, but the way he says them makes them hysterical. "Summers, you drive like a spaz." Teehee.

I knooow. Especially after seeing him being the obsessively stern principal, it is extremely entertaining to see the teenager version, and his delivery of everything is just gold.

this picture

Oh, God. You have scarred me for life.

I always thought that the Willow and Xander thing was a little OOC; mostly because Willow's an absolute stickler for rules and having her cheat seems a little odd (she wouldn't cheat on a test, it follows that she wouldn't cheat on her boyfriend), and while the "formal clothing!" scene was sweet, I'm not sure I buy Xander's sudden, inexplicable attraction to Willow, after blatantly only seeing her as a friend since they were six years old.

Mm. You see, usually I'd agree with the logic of "blatantly only seeing her as a friend since they were six years old" - as I said, usually I don't like shipping childhood friends, for precisely this reason. But there has definitely been setup on both sides - Willow's crush is obvious enough, but Xander does have a few moments that seem to be of a definite romantic nature (the ice cream scene, "I love you" when she was in the coma and his disappointment when she mumbled Oz's name), and several more emphasizing the depth of his feelings for her in general (my favorite is "If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you," to the current object of his romantic attraction) that also make sense in the light of suppressed romantic feelings. And then there's the fact that what kicked off the whole thing, really, was when he asked her how far she had gotten with Oz. It can be asked as a perfectly innocent question between friends, but given that we know - and Willow knows - that Xander is extremely prone to jealousy and it can very much also be a jealous question, I think it created a bit of invisible tension already. Then there's the pretty clothes, "Oz/Cordelia is very lucky", dancing and the physical proximity of that, and then they're both hit by a huge what-if truck and the kiss happens before it actually registers that, wait, no, you don't do this when you're in a relationship.

Strengthening the case for Willow's momentarily forgetting the rules, there is the fact that (and this is what bugs me about Willow/Oz at the moment) she got together with Oz in the first place on the grounds that she couldn't just wait around for Xander to "wake up and smell the hottie". She likes Oz too, obviously, but she frequently strikes me as largely admiring him more than being attracted to him per se at the moment (see all her babbling on about him being in the band and the highest-scoring student ever to fail to graduate and so on). When it seems like Xander might be returning her feelings by making vaguely jealous-sounding comments, ultimately she would rather be with him. Even better, Xander is a lot more familiar to her than Oz and she is nervous about the entire boyfriend thing, making him seem 'safer'. All in all this comes together as she is lost in the moment to make her make the first move towards the kiss, all before she starts to think about this in terms of rules - and once she does, of course, they break it off and are horrified. Now the barrier is broken, though, and being close to Xander has suddenly started to actually mean something it didn't before, plus a sort of rules-are-already-broken thing.

I hope to God they get over it for good before they do something stupid or their platonic friendship falls apart (and hopefully Willow can come to appreciate Oz properly once that's happened instead of him constantly serving as a "second choice" because she can't have Xander, as he seems to me to be right now), but I can see how it could happen (thus far) in character, even though Willow obviously isn't the cheating type. You'd need to be the cheating type to do it consciously and deliberately, but it's all happening as a sort of heat-of-the-moment thing that I can just about see.

Giles with his chainsaw

...I need to see that. (I probably did see it, I guess, but I don't remember it.)

 

[delta7]

I saw "BtVS Club" and thought, no way. Yep, glad to know others still appreciate this brilliance like I do :)

 

[Harlequin]

Spoiler

I read it somewhere, I think on Wiki, that when asked about the nature of Anya's death, Emma Caulfield said something like "It was sudden, blunt and to the point. And in that way, I think it was the perfect end for Anya." And while I hatehatehate that she died at all, she was right; it was very fitting.

I also thought it was very sweet that Andrew, who spent all of s7 making up stories and telling lies to make himself feel better and to justify his own actions, told Xander "She died saving me"; the first selfless lie he said.

You're not the only person to have a problem with Tara's death being used simply as a way to advance the plot. The fact that they killed her off in the first place; the manner in which they did so and the events that occured in its aftermath all played directly into a whole host of terrible stereotypes involving lesbian characters. There's an excellent (but slightly long) essay about how terribly Tara's death was handled here, outlining (among other things) how Willow and Tara had the first gay relationship most kids ever saw on TV, and the damage it did to see them torn apart so violently.

Actually, funny story (I don't think I've told anyone this before); even though I only watched Buffy last year, when I was younger, during my "I must seek verification" period I think every LGBT kid goes through (where they look high and low within all kinds of media for people like themselves), I found a video on Youtube that basically had clips of a bunch of lesbian characters from film and TV on, and one of them was a scene with Willow and Tara (though I didn't know this at the time). All the clip of them was was a short bit from Seeing Red where they're out of bed and newly-dressed and Willow pulls Tara close to her by her beltloops for a kiss and a hug.
14-year-old me thought that scene was absolutely beautiful - virtually all the other clips in the video and others like it were of things like passionate kisses, which were nice, don't get me wrong, but the closeness and domesticity of that little gesture and the kiss they shared really stayed with me. When I actually started watching Buffy last year, I loved Willow and Tara from the get-go (and not just because it was a lesbian relationship), but I didn't actually realise that the scene I loved so much from when I was little was of Willow and Tara. Until I actually saw it happen in the episode.
I knew that Seeing Red would be the episode of Tara's death thanks to a spoiler I read about Amber Benson only making it into the credits for that one ep, but when I saw the tugging and the kissing and the hugging, I remembered it perfectly from that little video I used to watch whenever I felt lonely... and then realised that Tara would be dead within the next few minutes. And then she was. And my hurt that my absolute favourite character in anything, ever, was dead was totally compounded by the fact that this one little scene between two anonymous girls that I used to cling to actually took place only moments before one of the girl's violent murder.

...and it still makes me sad ):

Spoiler

I think I agree with you about everything, really. Except for your whole validation story, since mine didn't go like that. ... Obviously, since I'm like the opposite of lesbian. Yeah. I totally get it, though :(

And Andrew! I don't know where I stand with Andrew. Do I like him? Do I think he's a good character? I don't know. He's in the comics, though, and he's kind of like a peripheral Scooby. IDK. Need to read more.

You know what else I love? How our conversations are just big blocks of colour. It's like THIS IS SECRET >:( or something idk.

I totally agree with Emma re: Anya's death. It was so, so fitting for her to die then. Crushing, yes, but also fitting.

He does; he does. XD

I have to say, I like Buffy (the series, not the character) better when the main three sort out and get over all their attractions to one another. Given the Scoobies can never have a relationship with someone outside of the group without it being romantic/familial (I'll never understand what took people so long to get that Willow and Tara were more than friends - Scoobies aren't allowed to have friends! Only, as Anya would put it, "orgasm friends"!), I like that they can have a nonromantic friendship with one another.
Well, that and I adore Tara and Anya to bits, and my Big Scooby Family needs them in.

This is what I really liked about Buffy, too. None of them end up with each other. It's great! The point is that they're friends and that's why they're so strong. (It's always something that's annoyed me about Harry Potter. I "ship" Ron/Hermione because it makes sense, but I do sort of wish they hadn't gone that way... but I digress.) Anya was such an amazing character. <3

And yeah. I mean. Obviously Willow and Tara were orgasm friends! But to be fair nobody knew Willow was a lesbian, so.

... Also

I support Buffy/Angel/Spike. AND I'M NOT ASHAMED OF IT.

 

[Dannichu]

Oh, yes. I love watching other people having fun. The Wish was a great case of this as well; it's going to be fun to see it again (if I remember correctly, it was the third episode I saw with you after Once More, With Feeling and Hush, so at that point I was still a bit confused about the characters and so on - I remember I had completely forgotten who Cordelia actually was).

Yeah, I'm sorry we jumped around the whole show so much; I get all excited and have to show everyone my favourite episodes and don't actually think of things like spoilers and character development/introductions until it's too late.
Hehe. I'd love The Wish for no reason other than it set the stage for Doppelgangland <3

Hm, I see your point, re: Willow and Xander... I haven't seen the early seasons in quite a while and can't remember all the details, but while I agree with what you say, there's still something off about it (besides them cheating on their SOs) that I don't really like.
I'm totally with you on the Willow/Oz thing. I really want to like them more as a couple, but it always felt a bit like Willow was more in love with the idea of being in love than with Oz himself. They're fairly adorable, Oz's respect for Willow is fairly awesome, and they have a definite share of adorable moments, but things like Oz's lack of communication (emphasised in Earshot when Willow realizes Buffy can read Oz's thoughts and panicks; "I never know what Oz is thinking! She'll know him better than I do!"), Willow's adoration of Oz's statuses (she talks about him being in a band a little too much) ...and the fact that, to me, they will always look like siblings just make the pairing hard to really love.

You know, I don't think we did watch Fear, Itself. It's my favourite Halloween episode; it's a bit of a retread of the S1 episode Nightmares, with a whole bunch of awesome thrown in for good measure. God, nearly all the series 4 episodes are either fantastically amazing (Hush, Who Are You?, Restless, Fear Itself) or utterly terrible (Beer Bad, Where the Wild Things Are, Goodbye Iowa).

I saw "BtVS Club" and thought, no way. Yep, glad to know others still appreciate this brilliance like I do :)

Yaaaaaaay <3 Favourite character? Favourite episode? Gogogo!

Spoiler: Everything

See, I have the most amazingly mixed feelings about Andrew. I hate him in series 6, but he's one of the best things about series 7 and it's so hard to reconcile how much I like him in S7 (I adore Storyteller; it and Him are the only S7 episodes I remember being funny) with the fact he was a co-conspiritor in attempted rape, murder and the death of my favourite character in S6 D:

Haha, I like our blocky conversations, too. We could say anything here and nobody would ever know! (assuming the other guys in the club don't finish the series and then come back to see what we were talking about)

When I saw Anya's death for the first time, it was so sudden I didn't even realise it'd happened, and it wasn't till we saw that couple-second shot of her bleeding from her mouth as everyone else escapes the collapsing school that I actually realised. I was devastated ):

Another thing about Anya is that I didn't really care for her too much in the beginning. I mean, I adored The Wish and Doppelgangland, but when she was reintroduced as a main character in S4, I wasn't that fussed about her, since all she seemed to do was make inappropriate comments about sex. I noticed her more in S5, absolutely loving the episode Triangle, but it wasn't till her speech in The Body that I absolutely fell in love with her. And, I think, she and Tara were the only characters who improved in series 6, and then she and Andrew were the only ones who got better in series 7 - the final episode and the continuation of Anya's storyline are pretty much the only things S7's got going for it, imo.

Actually, in making Anya and Tara so awesome (again, imo), the writers kind of shot themselves in the foot (feet?) because when things like Willow using magic to abuse Tara's mind, or Xander leaving Anya at the alter with no decent explaination happen... you start to completely side with the scooby-in-laws and resent the scoobies for it. And since the Core Four were always, as their name suggests, the heart of the show, making the viewers bear ill feelings towards them isn't really the best move.

Yessss, I'm so glad that something akin to the HP epilogue didn't happen in Buffy. That would've ruined everything.

Buffy/Angel/Spike? Yeah, I can imagine that happening pretty easily. I don't read a lot of threesome fic, but there's a surprising number of good Willow/Tara/Buffy fics (that focus on the relationship more than the sex, which is unusual), and I found a really good Tara/Buffy/Anya the other day, too. And, interestingly, a Tara/Anya/Xander that was not only in-character, but didn't freak me out. The fact that Willow/Tara/Dawn exists at all disturbs me, and whenever I see a Willow/Tara/Oz fic, I think I'll give it a try, but it always freaks me out and I can never read through to the end.

 

[Butterfree]

I don't really think Willow and Oz look that much alike, but then again it tends to be an exception when I actually think siblings look anything alike, so. Mostly I just really like Oz and it's sad when her heart doesn't seem to be into it. D: Does it get better in that respect later?

No, we didn't watch Fear, Itself. You were also talking about watching Tabula Rasa a few times but we never did. I'm very curious about both of them. And about Beer Bad and Where the Wild Things Are, just for the fact they're apparently so legendarily bad. And about whichever episode has Xander's penis getting diseases from a Chumash tribe, because that's quite lolwhut.

Buffy/Angel/Spike

The only thing likelier than that is Angelus/Spike/Drusilla, with all the very amusing text for all three sides of that triangle. I was just waiting for them to have an orgy at some point.

I had a dream last night involving Faith as a member of some gang at my old school that murdered a meteorologist and tried to cover it up. Then Phoenix Wright had to cross-examine her. And meanwhile Buffy and Giles were in some sort of a relationship, which is a lot squickier now that I'm awake than it seemed at the time.

(Also: Whoo, the next batch of season three episodes have almost finished downloading.)

 

[Dannichu]

Really? There's one episode where Oz's hair is red and they really could pass for identical twins. I think it's Becoming, Pt. 2, when she's in the wheelchair and Oz is pushing her and they look like male and female versions of one another.

I think it does get better, yeah, after the whole Willow/Xander thing. I don't think I can add much to that without spoiling ):

Ruth, Jemma and I had a discussion this afternoon about watching Buffy episodes out of order and how it's not the same if you don't see them how they're supposed to be seen - I watched OMWF (which is in early S6) having seen up the end of S4 and it wasn't as good as if I'd have seen it having seen all the episodes leading up to it, for example. But we also agreed that your odds of hooking someone on the series by showing them stuff like The Harvest are pretty low. But I deliberately didn’t show you Tabula Rasa because it’s one of those episodes that needs to be seen when you really know the characters, or else it’s not half as funny, and also some really significant plot-stuff happens at the end that I didn’t really want to spoil you for.
The “penis gets diseases” episode is called Pangs and is the only Buffy Thanksgiving episode, is in series 4, and is part of a run of absolutely brilliant episodes; you have Pangs, Something Blue and then Hush. It’s a shame the mediocre Doomed comes then, because after that you’ve got A New Man, which might be my favourite Giles episode <3

I don’t think Beer Bad’s as terrible as everyone makes it out to be. It’s very funny (it’s hard to think of a S4 episode that isn’t, though; series 4 is easily the funniest Buffy season), and Willow is awesome in it. It’s just a bit too in-your-face with morals about drinking – as the title kinda suggests.
And hell, even Where the Wild Things Are has *some* redeeming features – we get to hear Giles sing, which is always awesome (and if you don’t laugh as the ensuing scene you’re made of stone), and (this is probably something only I’ll appreciate, I’ll admit) we get to see Tara be all confident with her magic and stuff in front of other people. And she has her hair up in adorable bunches and okay I’m stopping now.

Haha, I’d forgotten about Angel(us)/Spike/Dru. That really works. I love me some amusing (sub)text.

Even though it’s not in any kind of ‘shipping-y context, I nearly died laughing when Giles said “I believe the subtext is rapidly becoming text” in… actually, I forget the episode, because I had an icon that said that and it was one of my favourites, and then to find out it was actually a Buffy quote… well, that made my day. The same thing happened with Firefly and “Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy”, “Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!” and “I can kill you with my brain”. Oh, Joss. <3

Your dream sounds absolutely amazing. I know I’ve had a couple of Buffy-related dreams, but I normally can’t remember any details (except, uh, that Tara was definitely in a couple), but the only one I remember clearly was only a few days ago, in which Giles, Cirrus and me were like drug dealers only instead of drugs they were Pokemon cards and we kept selling whole bunches of them to corrupt governments. It was very 24. XD

Also, I think you should take the “only” out of your sig; you’re nearly a third of the way through everything now!

Also, also; I dunno if anyone else has Google’s Quotes of the Day on their homepage, but today’s made me irrationally happy (yes, I know it’s Dr Horrible, not Buffy, but it’s still related):

Sometimes people are layered like that. There's something totally different underneath than what's on the surface. But sometimes, there's a third, even deeper level, and that one is the same as the top surface one. Like with pie.

- Joss Whedon, Zack Whedon, Maurissa Tancharoen, and Jed Whedon

Hee!

 

[Dannichu]

Really? There's one episode where Oz's hair is red and they really could pass for identical twins. I think it's Becoming, Pt. 2, when she's in the wheelchair and Oz is pushing her and they look like male and female versions of one another.

I think it does get better, yeah, after the whole Willow/Xander thing. I don't think I can add much to that without spoiling ):

Ruth, Jemma and I had a discussion this afternoon about watching Buffy episodes out of order and how it's not the same if you don't see them how they're supposed to be seen - I watched OMWF (which is in early S6) having seen up the end of S4 and it wasn't as good as if I'd have seen it having seen all the episodes leading up to it, for example. But we also agreed that your odds of hooking someone on the series by showing them stuff like The Harvest are pretty low. But I deliberately didn’t show you Tabula Rasa because it’s one of those episodes that needs to be seen when you really know the characters, or else it’s not half as funny, and also some really significant plot-stuff happens at the end that I didn’t really want to spoil you for.

The “penis gets diseases” episode is called Pangs and is the only Buffy Thanksgiving episode, is in series 4, and is part of a run of absolutely brilliant episodes; you have Pangs, Something Blue and then Hush. It’s a shame the mediocre Doomed comes then, because after that you’ve got A New Man, which might be my favourite Giles episode <3

I don’t think Beer Bad’s as terrible as everyone makes it out to be. It’s very funny (it’s hard to think of a S4 episode that isn’t, though; series 4 is easily the funniest Buffy season), and Willow is awesome in it. It’s just a bit too in-your-face with morals about drinking – as the title kinda suggests.
And hell, even Where the Wild Things Are has *some* redeeming features – we get to hear Giles sing, which is always awesome (and if you don’t laugh as the ensuing scene you’re made of stone), and (this is probably something only I’ll appreciate, I’ll admit) we get to see Tara be all confident with her magic and stuff in front of other people. And she has her hair up in adorable bunches and okay I’m stopping now.

Haha, I’d forgotten about Angel(us)/Spike/Dru. That really works. I love me some amusing (sub)text.

Even though it’s not in any kind of ‘shipping-y context, I nearly died laughing when Giles said “I believe the subtext is rapidly becoming text” in… (actually, I forget the episode), because I had an icon that said that and it was one of my favourites, and then to find out it was actually a Buffy quote… well, that made my day. The same thing happened with Firefly and “Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy”, “Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!” and “I can kill you with my brain”. Oh, Joss. <3

Your dream sounds absolutely amazing. I know I’ve had a couple of Buffy-related dreams, but I normally can’t remember any details (except, uh, that Tara was definitely in a couple), but the only one I remember clearly was only a few days ago, in which Giles, Cirrus and me were like drug dealers only instead of drugs they were Pokemon cards and we kept selling whole bunches of them to corrupt governments. It was very 24. XD

Also, I think you should take the “only” out of your sig; you’re nearly a third of the way through everything now!

Also, also; I dunno if anyone else has Google’s Quotes of the Day on their homepage, but today’s made me irrationally happy (yes, I know it’s Dr Horrible, not Buffy, but it’s still related):

Sometimes people are layered like that. There's something totally different underneath than what's on the surface. But sometimes, there's a third, even deeper level, and that one is the same as the top surface one. Like with pie.

- Joss Whedon, Zack Whedon, Maurissa Tancharoen, and Jed Whedon

Hee!

 

[Butterfree]

Hee, I adored Lover's Walk. Spike being all drunk and miserable and pathetic and almost getting himself burned up by sunlight? Oh, Joss, you know me so well even though I've never met you. <3 His cheekbones don't even seem so bad anymore. And it was all so delightfully pointless. "Hey, let's have Spike come over for an episode being all hilariously mopey about Drusilla leaving him and kidnapping Willow to make him a love potion, and then when the episode is about to be over, he'll just magically change his mind and leave." Absolutely marvelous.

God, now I want to quote all of it.

Silly Willow and Xander, though! D: I hope they're over one another now and can just be adorable friends again.

The Wish is also more fun when I know everybody properly. :3

Even though it’s not in any kind of ‘shipping-y context, I nearly died laughing when Giles said “I believe the subtext is rapidly becoming text”

Hee, me too.

Also, I think you should take the “only” out of your sig; you’re nearly a third of the way through everything now!

Huh, that's a weird thought. It's odd how soon lengthy series can be over.

Giles as a Pokémon card dealer corrupting governments. Hee. x3

Also Dr. Horrible quote. <3

 

[PK]

Spoiler: for season 6, and sort of a bit of season 2. Or was it 3? Whatever.

GUH. BUFFY AND SPIKE'S SEX SCENE. SO CREEPY AND EW AND... WRONG. NO. *shudders* WHY

ALSO WHY IS TED A ROBOT