Consensual Crimes

[BCM]

The seat belt laws discussion was clogging up the homosexuality thread, so, yeah.

Apparently, consensual crimes are things like drugs, prostitution, not wearing your seat belt, and gambling; things that arguably don't affect anyone other than people who consent.

Here's a link.

So, discuss whether you think laws should be put in place (or stay) to criminalize these things or not.

 

[Music Dragon]

I always feel like an idiot whenever I try to discuss this, because it's one of the few topics I don't know how to feel about.

I value freedom greatly, I do, but... I mean, sometimes people would be better off if you made sure they didn't act in stupid, irresponsible ways. I tried to kill myself once, but then I was stopped by a friend; right then, I really wanted to die, but now I'm very glad I didn't.

I suppose you could argue that I'd only have had myself to blame, and that people who choose to act on their impulses and do stupid things like these have it coming - and, above all, that I should definitely have the right to kill myself if I want to.

But... eh. I just don't know.

 

[Mirry]

On the issue of seat belts, I think that having a law to force people to wear them is pointless. Yes, if everybody wears seat belts then everybody is safer, but do people really feel compelled to wear seat belts because it's a law? Does anybody actually get in trouble with the law for not wearing a seat belt? I almost always wear a seat belt because I want to be safe, not because I'm afraid of getting caught for not wearing one. I think that if the law were eliminated there would be a very small change in the number of people who wear seat belts versus those who don't. A seat belt law to me seems kind of like having a law about not touching a hot stove. It's a good idea not to touch a hot stove, but is it necessary to make a law about it?

 

[Alexi]

I'm torn on this issue, too. I mean, I do like the freedom to whatever the hell I want so long as it doesn't harm others, but at the same time, I feel like it's part of the government's job to protect its people by placing these laws, so.

 

[BCM]

I'm torn on this issue, too. I mean, I do like the freedom to whatever the hell I want so long as it doesn't harm others, but at the same time, I feel like it's part of the government's job to protect its people by placing these laws, so.

Protect the people from themselves? (My thoughts are similar to this for all consensual crime laws)

And yeah, I think people should wear seat belts (even though I don't usually, sometimes Mom makes me) I think if you get pulled over and are found to not be wearing a seat belt and get fined; that's pretty stupid.

Eh, I think the government's job should be to protect the people in the least-interfering ways sensible, and seeing as there is a huge black market for drugs, a bunch of prostitutes, gamblers, and some people still don't wear seat belts; the government is getting into people's lives too much.

 

[Valor]

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Perhaps you seat belt law lovers need to get familiar with this phrase.

And you can stop demeaning the entire human race by assuming people need the government to live. We've overthrown so many governments in the past, we don't really need it.

 

[surskitty]

If no one benefits from it being illegal, and in particular if people are harmed by its illegality, then it should be legal.

If the law has no real effect -- seatbelt laws, for example -- then why have it on the books? The books are already cluttered with redundant laws; if there's no actual benefit from it existing, then why keep it?

 

[ultraviolet]

But the thing is, it is benefiting people by being illegal. There are kids right now that are getting it drilled into their heads to wear their seatbelts by their parents because it's dangerous and illegal not to wear one. There are plenty of (stupid) people who wouldn't wear one if it wasn't for the law. So yeah, it is preventing people from not wearing them. I know lots of people who would happily go without if the law was repealed.

I don't want to go driving and accidentally hit or get hit by a car and see the other person get thrown out of their window. There are plenty of stupid people who really take their safety for granted.

Does anybody actually get in trouble with the law for not wearing a seat belt?

Yes, I've seen people get pulled over for it. My stepdad has been fined for it (moron). They often enforce it through speed cameras, actually. We were nearly hit by a car once and were pulled over; the first thing the policeman did was to check if we were wearing seatbelts.
I dunno, maybe it's different in America.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Sorry, what? How are sealtbelt laws affecting this at all? I really didn't think sealtbelt laws were all that demeaning. :/

 

[BCM]

Half the kids at my school do drugs even though they know it's illegal and unhealthy, and we've had that drilled into our heads all the time. Just knowing that they shouldn't do drugs should be enough to make them not do drugs, otherwise they're stupid.
I wouldn't say this is a benefit.

I think you'll have other things to worry about then see a dead body in the middle of the road if you're in a wreck; like, "am I going to live", "is my family alright", etc. You might not even be conscious.

Sorry, what? How are sealtbelt laws affecting this at all? I really didn't think sealtbelt laws were all that demeaning. :/

The liberty to be able to do what one wants without hurting others against their will, without being stopped by the nanny-state government.

 

[ultraviolet]

Yes, but people who take drugs do so because they enjoy it or they have an addiction. There's an incentive for them to take drugs - there isn't really much of an incentive to not wear a seatbelt other than 'I don't want to', which is pretty silly when they could potentially save your life.

I think you'll have other things to worry about then see a dead body in the middle of the road if you're in a wreck; like, "am I going to live", "is my family alright", etc. You might not even be conscious.

True; but I'll also be thinking 'shit, have I killed someone? is the other person alright?'. Honestly, you wouldn't be traumatized by seeing someone's dead body?

 

[surskitty]

People often don't really care about legality for the small things. If it wasn't enforced, then it'd still be suggested heavily. Tobacco's not illegal and people still frequently know that smoking is bad.

 

[ultraviolet]

I can still see a lot of ignorant people not wearing seatbelts if it was decriminalised. Cars are dangerous machines even without seatbelts and I really think that safety precautions are important. Besides, if you wear a seatbelt anyway, it's not as if it's particularly annoying or you're going to get pulled over for it. It's not a hard thing to do, and yeah, it's a small thing, but it matters - Cars are dangerous, and there's enough stupid people driving them already. I don't think letting them be unsafe as well is that good an idea.

/rantrantrant. Sorry, I feel strongly about this.

 

[BCM]

True; but I'll also be thinking 'shit, have I killed someone? is the other person alright?'. Honestly, you wouldn't be traumatized by seeing someone's dead body?

In the Homosexuality thread, someone said that their uncle got thrown out even though he was wearing a seat belt. It doesn't always stop them from getting thrown out. Plus, there are plenty of other very simple ways to die/see a dead body. You can't really stop them.

I can still see a lot of ignorant people not wearing seatbelts if it was decriminalised. Cars are dangerous machines even without seatbelts and I really think that safety precautions are important. Besides, if you wear a seatbelt anyway, it's not as if it's particularly annoying or you're going to get pulled over for it. It's not a hard thing to do, and yeah, it's a small thing, but it matters - Cars are dangerous, and there's enough stupid people driving them already. I don't think letting them be unsafe as well is that good an idea.

People still get pulled over for not wearing their seat belt. I doubt it's stopping/deterring them, both my dad and my step mom were fined for not wearing theirs, and they still don't wear them.

 

[ultraviolet]

In the Homosexuality thread, someone said that their uncle got thrown out even though he was wearing a seat belt. It doesn't always stop them from getting thrown out.

Uh, that was me.

My uncle was killed in a car accident; if it weren't for the seatbelt he was wearing, he would have been unidentifiable.

While this is true, they save a lot more people than they don't. Just because they don't always work doesn't mean we should get rid of them - they work a lot of the time, after all.

 

[BCM]

While this is true, they save a lot more people than they don't. Just because they don't always work doesn't mean we should get rid of them - they work a lot of the time, after all.

I don't believe we should get rid of them; I believe we should get rid of the laws saying, "If you don't protect yourself, we'll make you pay us money".

I know they work, I was just... making a crappy point, I guess.

 

[Mirry]

Yes, I've seen people get pulled over for it. My stepdad has been fined for it (moron). They often enforce it through speed cameras, actually. We were nearly hit by a car once and were pulled over; the first thing the policeman did was to check if we were wearing seatbelts.
I dunno, maybe it's different in America.

I think it must be different in America, or at least in my little corner of the country. I've never heard of anybody getting pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt. And I'm pretty sure there aren't speed cameras in my area.

 

[Dannichu]

Laws against thing like that make massive differences; talking on a handheld mobile phone while driving was made illegal here a little while back, and the fines for it are pretty hefty, and people get pulled over for it a lot. The number of people driving while holding a phone has massively decreased, and the number of accidents caused by people only using one hand to drive has similarly gone down.

And why should it even matter? Even if one person wears a seatbelt because it's the law and then lives through an accident that would have otherwise killed them, then surely it's worth it?
Honestly, I can't believe that people think it's some massive crime for people to take away your right to, as UV put it, be spread all over the road if someone behind you doesn't break in time.

Speed cameras are everywhere here, and I think they're fantastic; the council put them up near accident hotspots and the number of death per year in those places has gone down dramatically.

 

[Alexi]

Mirry: Where I live (Fresno), my friend and her other four friends got tickets for not wearing seatbelts. But I think it has more to do with cops being bored/dicks than actually caring about enforcing a law.

 

[Mirry]

Yeah, I suppose I might see more of a point to seat belt laws if anybody around here actually did anything about them/took them seriously.

 

[Not Meowth]

@Dannichu: Anti-speeding/talking on phone while driving etc. laws are justified, because such offenses have the potential to hurt people other than yourself. If you decide you want to go dangerously fast or distract yourself by talking on the phone while on the road, it's not just your safety you're dealing with there; it's that of every single road user and/or pedestrian you come across.

As for things that can only harm yourself (drug use, no seatbelts, etc.) I think there's a case for arguing either way; criminalise them, and you risk an overcrowded prison system where many convicts haven't wronged anyone apart from themselves. Let things carry on, and (where the damage sustained is physical) you end up putting more strain on the hospitals.