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Feminism/Rape Culture

I'm a little confused as to how one might construct a joke in that way. The large majority of rape "jokes" are, well, barely jokes in the first place, but not targeted at a specific party, just the act itself. The act itself is somehow considered funny. "Surprise sex".

This thread is probably hella triggering.
 
I realize that my previous post may be misunderstood, so I'll make it clearer.

Rape jokes that mock the raped =/= okay.
Rape jokes that mock the rapist = okay.

Even if you managed to write such a joke, surely it would still end up being really problematic? First of all, joking at all is still making a joke out of it. Using anything about the situation as an excuse to laugh seems skeevy. And it's insensitive when you have no clue how the people around you might get triggered.

Maybe someone would want to use jokes to cope, but that's up to them, not you.

Anyway, with that specific kind of joke, though, making fun of rapists is only going to make them into a non-issue. For example, "they're stupid" as a joke ends up really being "only stupid people do this, so if they're smart, suddenly, consent must have happened. Also, your rapist was just stupid and you shouldn't have more complicated feelings about it than that." And it makes them out as not in control of their actions. And it also puts sympathy on them! "Oh, poor rapist, they're just too stupid to help it :(" That's not okay.

Plus, really creepy ableism! "Stupid" as an idea has super-bad connotations like "if you can't do x well, something about you is inherently wrong" and then you're adding on top of that: "people who can't do x well are so abnormal and weird and broken that they're strongly associated with rapists."

And... I have no idea what "mocking" could mean besides "portraying them as stupid" so won't all those problems always be in a joke like that?

And! Since you're strongly implying "jokes about this are fine" (you can't guarantee your audience will suddenly get the distinction between your two groups), then you're still potentially making rapists go "cool, they're on my side" and also potentially inciting more jokes. Which is bad.
 
Even if you managed to write such a joke, surely it would still end up being really problematic? First of all, joking at all is still making a joke out of it. Using anything about the situation as an excuse to laugh seems skeevy. And it's insensitive when you have no clue how the people around you might get triggered.

Maybe someone would want to use jokes to cope, but that's up to them, not you.

Anyway, with that specific kind of joke, though, making fun of rapists is only going to make them into a non-issue. For example, "they're stupid" as a joke ends up really being "only stupid people do this, so if they're smart, suddenly, consent must have happened. Also, your rapist was just stupid and you shouldn't have more complicated feelings about it than that." And it makes them out as not in control of their actions. And it also puts sympathy on them! "Oh, poor rapist, they're just too stupid to help it :(" That's not okay.

Plus, really creepy ableism! "Stupid" as an idea has super-bad connotations like "if you can't do x well, something about you is inherently wrong" and then you're adding on top of that: "people who can't do x well are so abnormal and weird and broken that they're strongly associated with rapists."

And... I have no idea what "mocking" could mean besides "portraying them as stupid" so won't all those problems always be in a joke like that?

You see, it doesn't have to be in that specific manner. How about these (I wouldn't necessarily word them like these - these are just the basic concepts):

"How desperate does someone even have to be that he bypasses the most basic rule of sex - consent?"

"If he wants power over women, he'll never get it now, or for the next 20 years without parole!"

Something like that.

And! Since you're strongly implying "jokes about this are fine" (you can't guarantee your audience will suddenly get the distinction between your two groups), then you're still potentially making rapists go "cool, they're on my side" and also potentially inciting more jokes. Which is bad.

Again, I didn't say "all rape jokes are fine" - in fact, I said almost the opposite. Most rape jokes mock the raped, and I consider those morally wrong, therefore, I consider most rape jokes morally wrong. However, I think that well-crafted jokes that mock the rapist can have the opposite effect of what you said - they can help us all see rapists for what they truly are, albeit in a sardonic manner.

I will say this, though: I agree with you that you're treading on thin ice with jokes that mock the rapist - you can easily end up mocking the raped instead.

And... I guess I don't have anything else to say.
 
You're not automatically a bad person for laughing at a rape joke. You're not automatically a bad person for laughing at anything, because laughing is an involuntary response, and if an involuntary response can make you a bad person, the term "bad person" has lost all real meaning.

I laugh at a lot of jokes that I find horrible. I even sometimes laugh at jokes that I genuinely don't find funny, because of the circumstances or somebody else's reaction or sheer bafflement at how bad the joke is. You can't help laughing. You can laugh and also say "No, ew, that's not okay."

For that matter, I also think there is such a thing as a joke that is both legitimately funny and problematic. I've heard genuinely funny rape jokes that were also awful victim-blaming - being funny is about buildup and subverting expectations, and it's entirely possible to do that while simultaneously being horrible. (A lot of rape jokes are also horrible while being completely unfunny, mind - in particular, rape jokes that rely on the mere idea of rape as somehow being hilarious to the listener.)

And I also think there is such a thing as a good joke involving rape that is critical of rape culture rather than perpetuating it (though obviously you shouldn't unexpectedly spring any sort of rape joke on a rape victim when it could trigger them), like Wanda Sykes' detachable vagina bit. The whole thing is a critique of how women live with a constant awareness of the possibility of being raped, and it treats it flippantly but in a way that's cathartic rather than dismissive.

Lastly, I think the genuinely funny kind of rape joke, even the legitimately horrible ones, can be enjoyed responsibly by people who share a mutual awareness about rape culture and why they're horrible. Rape jokes are more problematic than your average black comedy because there are so many people for whom they reinforce genuinely held toxic ideas, but within a closed group where the awfulness of rape is as obvious to everyone as the awfulness of murder, they become more or less equivalent to murder jokes (insert your preferred subject of black comedy here). Shadey and I were just playing Cards Against Humanity with my brother and his wife; we're all feminists, and we all came up with the most horrible shit and laughed ourselves silly at it, and I assure you no harm came to the cause of feminism in the process. Laughing at awful things in a mutual understanding of exactly why they're awful is cathartic and wonderful and basically human nature - it's a way of coping with the awfulness. Deciding Nobody Can Laugh at This Under Any Circumstances Ever is unproductive and unnecessary - focus on the ways it does actual harm.
 
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Shadey and I were just playing Cards Against Humanity with my brother and his wife; we're all feminists, and we all came up with the most horrible shit and laughed ourselves silly at it, and I assure you no harm came to the cause of feminism in the process. Laughing at awful things in a mutual understanding of exactly why they're awful is cathartic and wonderful and basically human nature - it's a way of coping with the awfulness. Deciding Nobody Can Laugh at This Under Any Circumstances Ever is unproductive and unnecessary - focus on the ways it does actual harm.

Not gonna lie, I do this all the damn time. XD

And I also think there is such a thing as a good joke involving rape that is critical of rape culture rather than perpetuating it (though obviously you shouldn't unexpectedly spring any sort of rape joke on a rape victim when it could trigger them), like Wanda Sykes' detachable vagina bit. The whole thing is a critique of how women live with a constant awareness of the possibility of being raped, and it treats it flippantly but in a way that's cathartic rather than dismissive.

This is basically what I was trying to say earlier, but this is phrased a lot better than mine was. :)
 
Oh man, I just have to share these. Sorry if potentially triggering.

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