Gaza

[Music Dragon]

So hey, Whivit... If I walk into your house holding a gun and tell you to leave forever, what would you say? "Well, it's easy to find somewhere else to live, so the only sensible thing to do is move out"?

 

[Harlequin]

The thing is it's not Israeli land. You took it from them - you say it's "your" land but they don't want "your" land. They want their land back.

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

The point is, they didn't bomb people before the war, yet they still, probably wouldn't have been able to move away...

... Wtf? Yes they did. That was when they were bombing people.

Also: Never refer to me as British. Please. It's sort of, like, something I hate. So please, just don't. :D

I didn't refer to you as British.

whivit you can't say "we need israel to be safe (see: holocaust)" and then say "get over the past" because, um ...

Agreed. So I'm over it.

The thing is: even if Palestine decided to give up whatever they have left and moved, they couldn't go anywhere because no one wants them. Going inside Israel? Please. Have you seen what happens in places where Israelis and Palestinians live together?
Again, look at Hevron.
Sure, makes great glass (seriously, top stuff), but apart from that.
What happened: Palestnians were living their normal lives in Hevron, not bothering anyone. Israel thinks 'hmm we should expand a bit more' and send some settlers there.
What they did was this: in apartment buildings, they'd move to the top floors, so that Palestinians had to go on the lower levels, and gradually work their way down to make everyone leave. Then, (and this still happens) they'd gather rubbish (left-overs of food, chicken bones, etc) and dump it out the window on the people passing down on the street.
Palestinians have had to stretch chicken wire over their marketplace to protect themselves from the filth people throw at them from the buildings. Seriously, that's just fucking disgusting.
Reminder that these were people who had done nothing.
So yes, Palestinians moving into Israel would work even better.

And I'm sure that was being done by the government and not random racist people. (Not really defending our government, since it's so corrupt that nothing I say could ever serve to defend it.)

And to use your thought process: if you stop oppressing them, maybe they'll stop firing rockets at you.

They're not firing rockets at the people that're oppressing them. They're firing them at random people that never hurt them in any way. The government is to blame for their oppression. Why is it okay for them to bomb random people, but when random racist Jews throw garbage at Palestinians it's horrible? Personally, murder > throwing garbage at someone.

And I know you'll respond to this with 'I never said Hamas was good bla bla'. No, you didn't. But you're on their side. So you don't have to say they're 'good'; you just think they're better.

The main point being that Palestine should not be forced to leave the country they live in because Israel feels like taking over the whole place. Again, you said they could just find other land. Where? Do you want them to go and steal land as well so we can continue this game for ever?
I think the best thing would just to make Israel move back to its original borders (where the country was more or less equally divided), send humanitarian aid to Palestine and try to build and cement a peaceful relationship between the two countries.

*shrugs* I have no problem with that. Splitting the land, that is. Of course, it'll never happen, for several reasons which I don't care to list. And even if it did, it wouldn't stop the fighting.

Also when you say Palestine 'bombs' you it conjures up images of Palestinian planes flying over Israel to bomb the country as opposed to a group of people firing crappy rockets.

Not the image it conjures up for me.

Uh, their land is actually sacred. Jerusalem, which is considered a Holy City by Islam, Christianity and Judaism, resides there. It's the main reason the Jewish felt they were entitled to the land in the first place.

Yes... I live here. I know.

But the land isn't sacred. Land can't be sacred, it's goddamn dirt. 'Sacred', lol. Who comes up with this shit?

What? Why should the Palestinians leave because their land was stolen and now they're being bullied by the bigger guy who stole it?

If you go back to Biblical times (which is what the Jews believe in), Israel was originally our land, so. As far as Jews are concerned, it was stolen from us.

So hey, Whivit... If I walk into your house holding a gun and tell you to leave forever, what would you say? "Well, it's easy to find somewhere else to live, so the only sensible thing to do is move out"?

Yes, I would leave. And then I'd go to my neighbor's house and call the police.

The thing is it's not Israeli land. You took it from them - you say it's "your" land but they don't want "your" land. They want their land back.

*sighs* We did not take it from them. The British took it, gave it to the UN, who gave it to us. Chain of events.

But even as they see it as their land, we see it as ours. God 'gave it to us', this is where the Messiah or wtfever will come and etc. It was intended to be our land from the start, so it's technically impossible for us to 'steal' it. (Again, this is as far as orthodox Jews are concerned; I don't care, personally.)

 

[Harlequin]

um I'm not talking about the original borders (though I do believe Israel should never have been created), I'm talking about the land you gained through invading a country was inferior weapons and defence system.

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

So because I think Hamas' position (position! position, not actions! actions and positions are not the same! nor do i agree with people who say every israeli should be killed! wanna clear that up before i get charmingly called anti-semitic again!) is more defensible than yours I suddenly think killing Israeli civillians is okay.
Yeah sure, why the fuck not.

 

[Mirry]

Just for the record I wasn't trying to antagonize anyone by saying that I knew little about the topic before reading this thread and then giving my brief opinion based on what I had read. Considering that I was completely neutral on the subject before I read this, I was trying to point out who has been making the more compelling arguments so far and at the same time trying to thank everyone involved in the debate for educating me somewhat on the subject, although I am fully aware that it is not the same as researching a topic very thoroughly.

Evidently nobody bothered to understand my point though, and I was instead censured for not being well-educated enough to have a legitimate opinion.

Anyway, in short, my point was. Had no opinion before reading this. Have opinion after reading this. And now I'll content myself with merely lurking.

 

[Saith]

Don't worry Mirry, we all understood your post. I think most of us did, anyway.

I just think no one wanted to appear condescending or something. I don't know, stop staring!!!:sweatdrop:

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

um I'm not talking about the original borders (though I do believe Israel should never have been created), I'm talking about the land you gained through invading a country was inferior weapons and defence system.

I'm trying to understand how the war we had, when we were being attacked by everyone and merely trying to defend ourselves - and somehow won, is any different than any other war. The US gained its entirety in its first war against the 'native Americans' (who weren't called that at the time), and then even more land from Mexico (New Mexico, California, etc.). That's just one example, since in every war, land is lost and gained. That's what happens. Why is Israel different?

So because I think Hamas' position (position! position, not actions! actions and positions are not the same! nor do i agree with people who say every israeli should be killed! wanna clear that up before i get charmingly called anti-semitic again!) is more defensible than yours I suddenly think killing Israeli civillians is okay.
Yeah sure, why the fuck not.

So basically, you do think they're better.

Just for the record I wasn't trying to antagonize anyone by saying that I knew little about the topic before reading this thread and then giving my brief opinion based on what I had read. Considering that I was completely neutral on the subject before I read this, I was trying to point out who has been making the more compelling arguments so far and at the same time trying to thank everyone involved in the debate for educating me somewhat on the subject, although I am fully aware that it is not the same as researching a topic very thoroughly.

That's exactly my point, though. Just because people on a Pokemon forum aren't adequate enough at arguing doesn't mean their 'side' isn't the right one. Hell, I don't even have a side. So it's rather unfair for you to choose one when no one is, really, defending Israel (and the entirety of the forum is saying 'olol Israel you suck').

Evidently nobody bothered to understand my point though, and I was instead censured for not being well-educated enough to have a legitimate opinion.

I'm not sure how asking you to go find other research material is equal to saying 'your opinion is illegitimate'. But, sure.

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

So basically, you do think they're better.

Sure.

 

[goldenquagsire]

first off

welsh nationalism lololololol

secondly

neither side really has a claim to the land. there are loads of israelis who've been born on land going back a few generations now, which i would say qualifies them to be allowed to live there. but yeah, what the israeli government is doing to palestine is also quite shit. "sacred land", "we lived here originally 2,000 years ago" and other such arguments are bullcrap, coming from either side.

if you asked me, frankly i'd say that the palestinians have more of a claim than the israelis. but the thing is, since we (the western world) kinda promised the jews that they could have israel, it's a bit shit to demand that all the israelis fuck off. more to the point, where do they fuck off to?

logically, evenly dividing the land into "israel" and "palestine" would probably be the best solution. but that's probably not going to work unless america has fifty nukes pointed at jerusalem that'll be let off if they try anything--

wait that's actually quite a good idea. :D

I'm trying to understand how the war we had, when we were being attacked by everyone and merely trying to defend ourselves - and somehow won, is any different than any other war. The US gained its entirety in its first war against the 'native Americans' (who weren't called that at the time), and then even more land from Mexico (New Mexico, California, etc.). That's just one example, since in every war, land is lost and gained. That's what happens. Why is Israel different?

hrm, this is a good point. it's all very well going on at israel about territorial gains when that's exactly what we've been doing for ages now.

Sure.

hamas wants to force all the jews out of israel. they're willing to kill civilians for this aim. the israeli government wants to force all the arabs out of israel. they're willing to kill civilians for this aim.

i really don't see the difference between the two sides.

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

No now I'm on the stage where I just agree with everything anyone says because I've stopped caring about the debate
Because the opponent makes no sense.
And is apparently convinced that I'm some kind of radical islamist or something.

ps:
Game time!

hamas wants to force all the jews out of israel. they're willing to kill civilians for this aim. the israeli government wants to force all the arabs out of israel. they're willing to kill civilians for this aim.

only one of these two groups has a chance (and is in the process) of achieving their aim. Can you figure out which one, reader?

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

No now I'm on the stage where I just agree with everything anyone says because I've stopped caring about the debate
Because the opponent makes no sense.
And is apparently convinced that I'm some kind of radical islamist or something.

You know, when you make random insults, it sends the impression that you really don't have anything to say. So I'll just take that as 'you're right, but I can't admit it so I'll just insult you'.

And I'm not sure if you're saying I think you're a radical Islamic? Because, uh, I don't believe I've sent that impression. Unless you're paranoid.

ps:
Game time!

only one of these two groups has a chance (and is in the process) of achieving their aim. Can you figure out which one, reader?

Perhaps the difference is that I think intent is just as important as the action itself. Whereas you seem to think that just because Hamas can't achieve its desire to get rid of all Jews, it doesn't matter that they want to.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

I'd like to refer to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights;

Article 5.

* No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 15.

* (1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
* (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Israel is going against Article 5 by attacking Palestine for no good reason and for using white phosphorus, which is illegal in almost EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

Whivit, you are suggesting going against Article 15 by saying they should just give up and be absorbed into Israel. They're Palestinians and if Israel absorbs Palestine, then they'll be robbed of their nationality.

 

[OLD ACCOUNT]

I'd like to refer to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights;

Israel is going against Article 5 by attacking Palestine for no good reason and for using white phosphorus, which is illegal in almost EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

Seriously? No good reason? Goddamn. You're right, Israel just woke up one morning and decided 'hey, let's go start a fight with someone, just for the fun of it'. There was nothing preceding it.

Whivit, you are suggesting going against Article 15 by saying they should just give up and be absorbed into Israel. They're Palestinians and if Israel absorbs Palestine, then they'll be robbed of their nationality.

Uh... what do you think Palestinians want to do? You think they just want to make friends with Israel?

And, again, I'd like to refer to every other war that has ever happened. Ever. Nationalities are 'absorbed' by others (again, just because it's a good example, Native Americans by uh, Americans). That's what happens. Stop paying so much attention to nationality.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Seriously? No good reason? Goddamn. You're right, Israel just woke up one morning and decided 'hey, let's go start a fight with someone, just for the fun of it'. There was nothing preceding it.

I think I said "no good reason". Israel has no justification for attacking Palestine.

Uh... what do you think Palestinians want to do? You think they just want to make friends with Israel?

And, again, I'd like to refer to every other war that has ever happened. Ever. Nationalities are 'absorbed' by others (again, just because it's a good example, Native Americans by uh, Americans). That's what happens. Stop paying so much attention to nationality.

I think they want their freakin' land back is what I think.

You are actually saying that it's okay to deny someone their human right to nationality? Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean it's okay for it to happen now. Unless you're saying a second Holocaust or a repeat of the Crusades would be completely justified. Also I'm pretty sure no nationalities were absorbed in any of these wars;

The Hundred Year's War
Irish War of Independence
Thirty Years' War
The Third Crusade
Sixty Years' War
Irish Civil War
American Civil War
American War of Independence
The Schmalkaldic Wars
English Civil War
Scottish Civil War
Eighty Years' War
Bishop's War

and about several hundred thousand others.

 

[Saith]

first off

welsh nationalism lololololol

I'm not a Welsh nationalist.

I'm just racist against the English...

Okay, no, but pretty much every other country (apart from America) stereotypically hates England and/or America (most also have good reasons). I just don't want to be grouped with them.

And Welsh (Scottish and Irish, too) stereotypically hate the English more (and my friends would hurt me if I ever said that I didn't hate the English ; ) )

And I also want to be aknowledged as Welsh, you know, the land of our (my) fathers... I need to learn the anthem, actually... :D

I've also stopped caring about who wins the debate because I'm not high on exhaustion right now.

Probably post properly tomorrow morning.

:D

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

You know, when you make random insults, it sends the impression that you really don't have anything to say. So I'll just take that as 'you're right, but I can't admit it so I'll just insult you'.

hmm yes good sire continue your point interests me greatly
it can't be because you say seriously stupid bullshit like 'well palestinians could just move/come to israel' and then cling to it

Perhaps the difference is that I think intent is just as important as the action itself. Whereas you seem to think that just because Hamas can't achieve its desire to get rid of all Jews, it doesn't matter that they want to.

conterpoint: israel, on top of wanting to do it, are doing it, which is worse than wanting to do something.

 

[Saith]

Yeah, and I thought I took that statement back... No I didn't, okiedoke.

Sorry :D

 

[goldenquagsire]

only one of these two groups has a chance (and is in the process) of achieving their aim. Can you figure out which one, reader?

this means nothing.

al-qaeda is a small group and they probably won't be able to achieve their aim. doesn't mean they're "in the right", so to speak.

And I also want to be aknowledged as Welsh, you know, the land of our (my) fathers... I need to learn the anthem, actually... :D

wales has been under total english control for... over four hundred years now? i think the people of bavaria stopped caring about being an independent country less than two hundred years ago. :P

you're officially british. deal with it.

And Welsh (Scottish and Irish, too) stereotypically hate the English more (and my friends would hurt me if I ever said that I didn't hate the English ; ) )

aw, no offence taken.

we mock everyone else as well. thing is, we hold the ropes around here. :D

I think I said "no good reason". Israel has no justification for attacking Palestine.

rockets hitting a country's territory is generally considered reason enough for military action.

even if the response was totally overblown, israel couldn't just sit there wanking.

And, again, I'd like to refer to every other war that has ever happened. Ever. Nationalities are 'absorbed' by others (again, just because it's a good example, Native Americans by uh, Americans). That's what happens. Stop paying so much attention to nationality.

the native americans probably didn't like being "absorbed", tho'.

besides, i doubt that israel could absorb the entire palestinian population without a massive shitstorm.

I am certain that if Israel did as the UN has been asking, Hamas would stop firing.

things are probably past that stage now, but it's always worth a try, i guess.

 

[goldenquagsire]

There were scarcely any rockets hitting Israel during the ceasefire in 2008, until Israel killed six Hamas people in November. Then Hamas started firing again, and then Israel invaded. It would have been far safer for Israel and Gaza if they had restarted the ceasefire, rather than Israel's invading Gaza. To me it really does look like just an act of vote winning.

Exactly my point.

The Israeli government couldn't just sit by and do nothing when rockets are hitting their territory. Can you imagine how quickly they'd lose popularity?

What stage? Hamas managed to stop firing for almost six months. If Israel had lifted the blockade on Gaza, as Hamas asked it to, the ceasefire could have gone on for years.

Israel went in and kicked up a titanic fuss. The death toll exceeds 200 by now, yes? Hamas has been riled up by all this, and unless they posses an extraordinary sense of forgiveness, I image that they probably wouldn't just say "k we'll stop doing shit" even if Israel offered a ceasefire.