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Ground Zero Mosque

"Laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also and keep pace with the times." - Thomas Jefferson

All I'm saying is that you can't infringe upon it which liberals do just because it SHOULD be removed.
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But you see, from my point of view gun control laws don't violate the second amendment. Why? Because I interpret it differently from you! That's the great thing about people: we can interpret things in different ways.
 
Thomas Jefferson? How uncreative. You can quote him on anything.

Either way read my above post.
 
Pwnemon said:
Thomas Jefferson? How uncreative. You can quote him on anything.

Either way read my above post.
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Okay, I have had enough. You ask for a quote, I give you a quote. Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence. He was intimately involved with the drafting of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Who the hell do you want me to quote?

So here's what we're going to do. You obviously don't care what we're saying. No matter what we say, do, quote, who we cite, what arguments we make, you would find some reason to ignore everything that disagrees with your point of view. Unless you're willing to actually debate with me, I've had enough. Come back in a few years.
 
Nothing. It was sort of a joke. Although you can quote him on anything.

EDIT: I was joking around. The part you should have looked at was to look at above post.
 
Pwnemon said:
Thomas Jefferson? How uncreative. You can quote him on anything.
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You said, "show me the founding fathers expressing that the constitution and the law ought to be subject to change and scrutiny"

You were shown this, in the form of a relevant statement by one of the founding fathers asserting that the document was meant to be changed.
 
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Not reading through this shit because it's way too long, but the 'Ground Zero' 'Mosque' isn't on Ground Zero, and isn't a mosque, and the First Amendment makes it literally illegal to prevent this thing from being built, so I don't see what the hell anyone can possibly be angry about.
 
on a few things (and really rambling and tangential, sorry):

Pwnemon said:
Although I refute the words "conservative religious authoritarian" being put together as one phrase.
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Yeah, sorry about this. I didn't mean that these necessary all went together, I just mean that these are things that tCOD disagrees with. Of course there are conservative and religious people who are not authoritarian.

Anyway, on indoctrination: I was/am being brought up by liberal parents and I don't think they ever really tried to indoctrinate me. I remember in like kindergarten every single one of my classmates wanted Bush to win so I automatically did too; my parents would look at the TV and say "here comes Al Gore, he's our guy!" and I would say, "no, BUSH!!! is going to win! go BUSH!!!" and I guess they would just kind of laugh. But when I asked him about the differences between Republican and Democrat, I did hear my dad say something like "Republicans don't want to help poor people, they want to keep the rich people rich, but Democrats want to help the poor people become rich." When we turned on the TV and looked at some Republicans, my mom would say (to no one in particular) "bad, bad guys!!" So of course from an early age I thought the Republicans were bad and the Democrats are good. However, I don't think they actually were trying to indoctrinate me, unlike, say, the parents in "Jesus Camp" who tell their kids not to listen to secular music. If there are any parents out there (and there are) who tell their children things like "Christians are silly, if you see one it's fine to tell them that", then these are certainly parents who I am against.

Anyway partially because of said pseudo-indoctrination, partially because of stuff I read on this forum and other parts of the internet, I was a pretty strong Democrat/atheist until relatively recently. These days I really just dislike both parties; in my eyes (and sorry if this sounds like a David Icke statement, it's really not) they really just serve the purpose of dividing the country up and pitting people against themselves over dumb shit - so that no one begins to truly question the system. I'm not saying that there's some grand conspiracy that orchestrated the two party system for this effect - I'm just saying that this is the effect that it currently has. But even if you don't buy into this you have to agree that it is silly that say, abortion is an issue that is divided among party lines. Why people need to "go with their camp" on every issue is beyond me.

ANYWAY MY POINT IS THIS:

Pwnemon: I highly encourage you to keep debating and don't let these assholes (of which I am sure I have been one of at least once) scare you off. People will call you an "idiot", but go ahead and ignore them, and don't do anything to make them ban you or take away your debating privileges again, because they will at the slightest thing. I definitely don't agree with you, and think you don't entirely understand what you're talking about (then again, who does?) but nor do I fully agree with these guys, and nor do I appreciate people bullying you out of sticking up for your views.
 
Zeta, I completely agree with you that entire post, thank you. The parties are stupid. They raise millions of dollars a year to divide our country. That's why I identify as conservative and most everyone here calls themselves Liberal instead of Republican and Democrat. It's because they really just sorta stink.
 
Pwnemon: I would think that the reason that most TCoDers call themselves "liberal" or "conservative" instead of "Republican" or "Democrat" is because a huge portion of the forum is non-American, and Republican and Democrat as party terms are used exclusively in America...?

on liberal indoctrination;

I think that the reason conservatives have more of a sense of "being brought up that way" than liberals is because conservatism often goes hand-in-hand with religion. Religious people want their kids to be raised in the same religion as them (my great-grandmother was very upset when she discovered that my mother was leaving the Catholic church, and my grandmother wasn't too happy about it either - to the point that my no-longer-Catholic mother baptized me just to reassure my grandmother). Liberals... from what I've seen, they don't really care if their kids end up believing something different from what they believed. I don't think my mother ever tried to beat her very lax Christian/agnostic beliefs or her liberal political views into me as a kid. In fact, when we moved my family joined a church where the entire purpose was to "let people find their own spiritual path", as it were. As kids, we learned objectively about various different religions but none of us were pressured into believing any specific religion, and in the end I became atheist. :/

I became pro-choice and pro-gay rights on my own terms based on my experiences, not because my mother beat me down with "PRO-CHOICE IS GOOD AND GAY RIGHTS ARE GOOD". In fact, I don't think I ever knew what abortion was from her; I found out about it separately and was like "choice."

my point being that liberals usually make up their own minds and aren't beaten down with liberalism simply because there doesn't seem to be as much to beat down as in conservatism.
 
Democrats and atheists are not the same thing by a long shot and US democrats are considered right-wing by European standards.
 
I agree with LeafPool. Furthermore, Liberals are more likely to be atheist than Conservatives.
 
Watershed said:
Democrats and atheists are not the same thing by a long shot and US democrats are considered right-wing by European standards.
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I really don't think anyone is saying that they are.

At tCoD, however, they do seem to go hand in hand.
 
My own parents are Christian democrats-ish... or, well, at least the one whose decision making is based on any kind of thought whatsoever (that is, my mother), and my grandfather, too, who was a big influence on me growing up even though I grew way out of the Christian influence. In politics and government they realize that laws should be based on what's good for people and not necessarily what the Bible says, and whether or not they follow Biblical laws is between the them and god, and not the responsibility of the government that has enough on their plate trying to keep the economy in check. So when it comes to things like abortion and gay marriage they tend to be on the "eh make it legal" side.

Kind of late to the "what's your background/were you indoctrinated" party, but since Christian democrats were mentioned I figured I might as well input that.
 
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