Gun rights

[Tarvos]

I live in a country where both guns and marijuana are illegal. Off the top of my head, I can think of about five people I could potentially buy weed from - and I don't even smoke it. I can't think of a single place I would go should I want to buy a gun for whatever reason.

Guns don't grow on trees, you know.

More, if you use your Dutch Connexion

 

[Aisling]

Hmm... maybe I got a bit ahead of myself. I'm not for everybody being able to have a machine gun if they wanted one or anything, it's just the banning of all guns (which is what I feel Zeta was implying, with broad phrases like "if they take away our guns") that doesn't sound so hot to me. I probably should have thought for just a minute longer before agreeing. I'm a bit torn on the issue now.

I was wondering idly this morning how gun violence in a town like mine (or at in least states lacking a large city) is compared to a big city with gang violence and everything, and that maybe that skews the overall average, and that maybe guns should only be more strictly controlled in problem areas... but apparently any given state has a higher rate of gun homicide per 100k people than most European countries anyway. So that has me leaning towards the other side.

Gradually disarming makes sense to me, considering police brutality/government over-control is one of the main arguments against gun control in the first post there.

Just out of curiosity (and because I don't have much longer to be on the computer this morning), how are gun sports handled in countries with more gun control? I was thinking about how deer hunting and exhibition shooting are pretty big in the south...

Sorry if this post got kind of rambley. x:

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

I don't know much about Ireland, but I know police brutality is a major issue in many parts of the US, and I can't imagine that people having guns that they 'accidentally fired' helps at all..

I can't see disarming police officers as well as everyone else to be a good idea, since if guns have been readily available recently, it'd be easy for criminals to get them, but I do think they should be gradually disarmed. At least taser abuse is less deadly. It's probably not taken as seriously, but given that people can get away with murder....

I don't think there's much of a police brutality thing in Ireland (possibly relevant to the largely unarmed police force) but there was a case a few years ago where a young fella called Brian Rossiter was being held overnight in Clonmel Garda station (which is illegal) and was found dead the next morning. More can be read here. It was a pretty big case.

Also, my former Irish grinds teacher was at a big party for all the Irish language societies in Ireland up in the North when the police burst in, locked down the hotel and started throwing people up against walls and searching them. None of the people at it ever got an explanation for what happened but my guess is that it had something to do with the Orange vs. Green thing.

Just out of curiosity (and because I don't have much longer to be on the computer this morning), how are gun sports handled in countries with more gun control? I was thinking about how deer hunting and exhibition shooting are pretty big in the south...

Sorry if this post got kind of rambley. x:

In Ireland, we use air rifles. Technically not a firearm because there's no combustion, I think.

 

[Dannichu]

Just out of curiosity (and because I don't have much longer to be on the computer this morning), how are gun sports handled in countries with more gun control?

Ahaha, have an amusing story about just how strict the gun controls are in the UK - You know how there are marksmanship competitions in the Olympics? From Wiki: "It is illegal for Britain's top pistol shooters to train in England, Scotland or Wales. As a result, British shooters currently spend 20 to 30 days a year training in Switzerland, and receive no public sports funding because their events are considered illegal in the UK."

The events involving pistols are being allowed in the London 2012 Olympics, but it's a very special dispensation granted by the government, only for when the events are actually happening.

Hunting animals for sport does happen in the UK, but there are hundreds of hoops to jump through to get a license for a gun, and socially, it's frowned upon.

I've only ever seen armed police outside governmental buildings in London. It always surprises me when I'm watching American TV and a random police officer just driving along has a gun. And will normally try to arrest someone, the suspect will run away, and the police officer will start shooting at them. o.o

 

[Pwnemon]

Hm, TV is dramatized. Police officers aren't allowed to shoot until they have had aggression used against them.

 

[Minish]

How come you rarely respond to others' count-arguments, Pwnemon?

 

[Phantom]

The right to bear arms was something new and unheard of when it was written, it was also written in a world that had just survived a Revolution and still had a large amount of frontier, as well as people that might have reason to kill you.


I agree and disagree on a few things.

I love guns, I shoot competitively for my police post, and I work and use guns on a regular basis.

It is a right nonetheless to protect yourself.

Yes guns are bad when in the hands of bad people, but when the bad people come I want to have a gun too.


Just wanted to say my little snippet, I work with police and armed security, myself I will become and armed officer in two years, so I might be a little biased on the subject.

 

[Minish]

Yes guns are bad when in the hands of bad people, but when the bad people come I want to have a gun too.

This is a really awful argument. Why don't you just make it harder for "bad people" to have access to guns? If they didn't have a gun to shoot you with you wouldn't need a gun shoot them back.

 

[Phantom]

That's the thing most of those "bad" people didn't obtain the guns legally.

 

[opaltiger]

That's the thing most of those "bad" people didn't obtain the guns legally.

I find this highly unlikely. But okay, let's assume that. The existence of a mechanism for the legal acquisition of guns makes it much easier to acquire them illegally as well. Hence why gun-crime is so much lower in countries with strict gun control laws.

 

[Pwnemon]

But when you know that the guy you gonna shoot is probably carrying a loaded firearm it makes you stop and think a second. When you get an illegal gun in a strictly gun controlled place, especially somewhere like Ireland where the police have AIR RIFLES, they can pretty much goshdang run the country.

 

[Dannichu]

Uh, no. In 99% of England, the police are totally unarmed and we don't have people with guns taking over the government on a daily basis. Or, you know, at all. I can't be bothered to search for statistics, but I bet you anything we have far fewer police killed in the line of duty, too.

Edit: Wait, wait.

But when you know that the guy you gonna shoot is probably carrying a loaded firearm it makes you stop and think a second.

"probably"? If you don't even know for sure if the other guy's a threat, of course you should stop and bloody think! Shooting people kills them. It makes them dead. You can't just shoot someone and then go "Oh, I guess they didn't have a gun after all! Whoops!"

What's the hypothetical 'other guy' doing to you, anyway? On what basis does someone deserve to have a gun pulled on them?

 

[PK]

Uh, no. In 99% of England, the police are totally unarmed and we don't have people with guns taking over the government on a daily basis. Or, you know, at all.

Edit: Wait, wait.



"probably"? If you don't even know for sure if the other guy's a threat, of course you should stop and bloody think! Shooting people kills them. It makes them dead. You can't just shoot someone and then go "Oh, I guess they didn't have a gun after all! Whoops!"

What's the hypothetical 'other guy' doing to you, anyway? On what basis does someone deserve to have a gun pulled on them?

But according to doctor who, you DO have an alien invasion every Christmas.

Anyways, i see no reason any average citizen should have need of a gun, except for hunting. but i really don't think people should hunt unless they need to for food, so... yeah.

 

[Phantom]

But according to doctor who, you DO have an alien invasion every Christmas.

Win of epicness.

 

[Pwnemon]

Well, Dannichu, I was saying in the mind of a criminal it would deter you from crime if the other guy was likely to pull a gun on your butt.

 

[Espeon]

Well, Dannichu, I was saying in the mind of a criminal it would deter you from crime if the other guy was likely to pull a gun on your butt.

Yes but if you were in a gun-friendly area, you'd likely have one on yourself. As a criminal, you're likely more happy to use it than your average law abiding citizen. It might deter you but, maybe not as much in a gun-unfriendly area, where you'd be completely prone to gun attacks.

 

[Minish]

Well, Dannichu, I was saying in the mind of a criminal it would deter you from crime if the other guy was likely to pull a gun on your butt.

Worst argument ever!

If society ran on this kind of thinking, we'd still be running nuclear arms races. If you make it so difficult for the criminal to get access to a gun, they won't have a gun.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

But when you know that the guy you gonna shoot is probably carrying a loaded firearm it makes you stop and think a second. When you get an illegal gun in a strictly gun controlled place, especially somewhere like Ireland where the police have AIR RIFLES, they can pretty much goshdang run the country.

In Ireland, the police don't have air rifles, they don't even have tazers. All they have are batons. And we still, despite your "arguments" have lower gun crime than the USA.

The only people in a given country who should carry arms are special squads in the police who are trained to deal with criminals who illegally have guns. Like here in Ireland. Where gun crime is lower than in the USA.

Actually, you know what? The EU is based on free movement of people and goods. On the mainland there is next-to-nothing stopping you from driving from one country to the next. It may as well be a tollbooth. Even with such minimal security across borders, the EU still has lower gun crime rates.

The free availability of guns in the USA is the biggest reason so many people are getting shot every year over there. You guys really have no excuse.

 

[Pwnemon]

Actually, ever heard the phrase "nuclear intimidation?" It's a policy the US has had for years that goes somewhat like this: "Gee, you know those pics of mushroom clouds? Don't they look cool? I wish I could see one while it happened though. Too bad nobody is causing any trouble." It really helps keep peace, why can't it work on the smaller scale of guns?

EDIT at ninja: Wait, you just said you had air rifles. ???

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

People who hunt animals. Read the posts properly, it might help.