Gym Leader Choice Pokémafia 2 - Game Thread

[RNP]

only scum deal in absolutes

Spoiler: ugh

View attachment 756

that's the joke buddy

 

[RNP]

also that's gotta be by far the worst image i've seen on these forums

 

[bruh moment]

we disregarded it at first but we keep coming back to this post and feeling increasingly unsettled about it

this was a very interesting analysis, bruh. i can’t say i’m fully swayed by it, but it definitely sounds off, especially because of the inconsistencies regarding how she remembers the details of her powers.

i’m looking forward to see tofu’s response and her reply to the question i made on my longpost. also looking forward to your negrekthoughts

thanks, bruh

(mewt:) i just. don't really understand this post. i find it hard to believe that there was nothing in our post that you wanted to engage with? nothing to ask about, or anything about her reservations that she wanted to elaborate on?

the only motive i can see, either way, is "i want tofu to give her side of the story first." but to be quite honest, i think that anything tofu said after the initial claim/flurry is massively less relevant than anything else - the entire read depends on the order in which she gave information, and the exact genesis of the new move that she had expressly said didn't exist prior.

(skylar:) tofu coming in to say "well i actually did just forget" doesn't really offer any information that should change the validity of our analysis, since the entire point was that the chain of events was back-pedaly and revisionist, and that back-pedaling/revision has already occurred at this point. it doesn't feel like you were actually attempting to engage with our thoughts in good faith, and sort of leads us to wonder whether you had some other purpose for avoiding engaging with the most/offloading it until after tofu got the chance to come in and throw her two cents in. feels like a potentially partner-y dynamic honestly, though we're not 100% sure we want to go there yet.

 

[bruh moment]

nothing to ask about, or anything about *your reservations that *you wanted to elaborate on?

oops perspective shift

 

[rari_teh]

i'd even argue that its town rationale is exactly equivalent to what you said was anti-town about it at EoD; figuring out if rnp had the ability to fake mafia out was crucial to figuring out if the role had any utility left, especially when he'd literally used the phrase inthread already during his claim.

…if he does not have the ability to fake mafia out, which he hadn’t in his fakeclaim, doesn’t the act of declaring it in thread destroy every last shred of possible utility in his role? i cannot grasp how this can be perceived as town

although i would also ordinarily be a little worried about rolefishing, i also think it's pretty important to consider that - if negrek is a) mafia and b) conscious of how her posts would come off (and i'm inclined to think so, because she's an experienced player) - then what you've presented would be tantamount to like ... pretty unnecessary/unprompted d1 openwolfing. do you think this world makes more sense than there being a fundamental difference in playstyles/attitudes?

this is not a good train of thought tbh
if this sort of logics was sure to work, koko would’ve been mafia in acnh

when he spills it, this is what she says:

Huh, interesting. Thanks!

It's definitely an odd role, but not at all outside the realm of what I would expect from MF. If you're telling the truth about it, then yeah, I think bruh moment was right in that now the cat's out of the bag, it's unlikely we'll be able to take advantage of it. But it would be very powerful, and I wouldn't totally rule it out yet.

emphasis mine. i have no words.

also i ... don't really know what you were trying to convey here to be honest, can you clarify?
[/QUOTE]
she pulled the cat’s last leg out of the bag and then immediately went “oh. what a pity. the cat is now fully out of the bag.”

this already wasn't really damning/evidence-based imo, but in light of neg claiming to have killed herbe i also think that this actually is +v and checks out with her EoD behavior

i don’t think this is AI honestly
if herbe was shot by the mafia n0 and claimed 3p d1, it was also in the best interest of the mafia to shoot him again n1. if anybody was looking at herbe and/or negrek during the Night, they would be able to attest her “vigging” and hopefully confirm her, if she’s telling the truth about having killed him. this behaviour is consistent both with v!joat!negrek and w!kp!negrek.

I'd be interested in getting a quick straw poll of who did or didn't interpret them that way, to see whether it's something that a vig really ought to have noticed, or just my overactive pareidolia.

i saw the same thing as mawile tbh. i thought they were town roleblocker.

anyways. i have a theory about this game, but it sorta outs me so i'll percolate on it.

i also have a theory about this game but it sorta outs me. i wonder if it’s the same.

i will say this: one of my abilities is an Ability, the other is a Move. tell me if yours are different or the same.

my free action is a Fake Thing That Sounds Like A Move and my badgepower is a Move.

 

[rari_teh]

one of the quotes got botched but you get the idea

 

[Mawile]

oh yeah also this post ever so slightly tipped me off to hydrei being a town roleblocker

I think a town Role blocker would be useful to stay hidden, if there is one

 

[rari_teh]

we disregarded it at first but we keep coming back to this post and feeling increasingly unsettled about it

this was a very interesting analysis, bruh. i can’t say i’m fully swayed by it, but it definitely sounds off, especially because of the inconsistencies regarding how she remembers the details of her powers.

i’m looking forward to see tofu’s response and her reply to the question i made on my longpost. also looking forward to your negrekthoughts

thanks, bruh

(mewt:) i just. don't really understand this post. i find it hard to believe that there was nothing in our post that you wanted to engage with? nothing to ask about, or anything about her reservations that she wanted to elaborate on?

the only motive i can see, either way, is "i want tofu to give her side of the story first." but to be quite honest, i think that anything tofu said after the initial claim/flurry is massively less relevant than anything else - the entire read depends on the order in which she gave information, and the exact genesis of the new move that she had expressly said didn't exist prior.

(skylar:) tofu coming in to say "well i actually did just forget" doesn't really offer any information that should change the validity of our analysis, since the entire point was that the chain of events was back-pedaly and revisionist, and that back-pedaling/revision has already occurred at this point. it doesn't feel like you were actually attempting to engage with our thoughts in good faith, and sort of leads us to wonder whether you had some other purpose for avoiding engaging with the most/offloading it until after tofu got the chance to come in and throw her two cents in. feels like a potentially partner-y dynamic honestly, though we're not 100% sure we want to go there yet.

oh boy. i really had nothing to add on, really? i wanted to let tofu respond to things first and see how she would react. i see that you’re tunneled and you have good reason for doing so, but i frankly find her claim to have accidentally conflated colourful scatter and the badge distribution upon death believable. i understand that you find the progression sketchy and it sure doesn’t have the best look, but i don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to think that her memory worked a bit selectively/she glossed over the “boring parts” and retained the interesting action.

this is not a hill i’m intending to die on and maybe i’m being pocketed and making a clown out of myself, but tofu is not somebody i’d be comfortable lynching in the foreseeable future. i think it would be for the best if a cop/investigator, if there is such a thing, checked her toNight and. well, retained the information until a redcheck is found, really.

 

[rari_teh]

i also have a theory about this game but it sorta outs me. i wonder if it’s the same.

i can’t take this out of my head. @RedneckPhoenix if i told you my theory doesn’t work if negrek is telling the truth about last Night’s events, what would you say?

 

[bruh moment]

i'd even argue that its town rationale is exactly equivalent to what you said was anti-town about it at EoD; figuring out if rnp had the ability to fake mafia out was crucial to figuring out if the role had any utility left, especially when he'd literally used the phrase inthread already during his claim.

…if he does not have the ability to fake mafia out, which he hadn’t in his fakeclaim, doesn’t the act of declaring it in thread destroy every last shred of possible utility in his role? i cannot grasp how this can be perceived as town

rnp had already decided the role was worthless. he was already planning on not using the role.
do you not think that him claiming every detail of his role d1 for no reason might have done most of the legwork in destroying its utility?

although i would also ordinarily be a little worried about rolefishing, i also think it's pretty important to consider that - if negrek is a) mafia and b) conscious of how her posts would come off (and i'm inclined to think so, because she's an experienced player) - then what you've presented would be tantamount to like ... pretty unnecessary/unprompted d1 openwolfing. do you think this world makes more sense than there being a fundamental difference in playstyles/attitudes?

this is not a good train of thought tbh
if this sort of logics was sure to work, koko would’ve been mafia in acnh

... ? i'm saying that i think you're sooner assuming that negrek is just mafia playing incredibly badly than thinking "maybe there is a foundational difference in metagame," and then not engaging with or really considering that latter world. that is not the same thing as what happened in acnh, considering the meta difference there was a much wider stretch than seeing that negrek is acting in complete concert with a meta that we KNOW she participated in, and that you and i have talked about in extensive detail during the games where we've hydraed together. >:

i don’t think this is AI honestly

if herbe was shot by the mafia n0 and claimed 3p d1, it was also in the best interest of the mafia to shoot him again n1. if anybody was looking at herbe and/or negrek during the Night, they would be able to attest her “vigging” and hopefully confirm her, if she’s telling the truth about having killed him. this behaviour is consistent both with v!joat!negrek and w!kp!negrek.

(skylar:) i'm sorry, what? the only reason negrek's claim works at all is because there were two kills (one of which makes perfect sense to have been coming from negrek given her eod), so unless you think the mafia coordinated both of these kills—for which there is no evidence—this makes zero sense.

 

[rari_teh]

do you not think that him claiming every detail of his role d1 for no reason might have done most of the legwork in destroying its utility?

yes, of course. but that is not the point here. the only thing that was not clear was if/how mafia would be notified of his role’s activation. that was the last shred of possibility of his role being put into use. and negrek insisted in extracting that piece of information from him. once again i ask, why would town want to make that information public?

... ? i'm saying that i think you're sooner assuming that negrek is just mafia playing incredibly badly than thinking "maybe there is a foundational difference in metagame," and then not engaging with or really considering that latter world. that is not the same thing as what happened in acnh, considering the meta difference there was a much wider stretch than seeing that negrek is acting in complete concert with a meta that we KNOW she participated in, and that you and i have talked about in extensive detail during the games where we've hydraed together. >:

i concede that there is a good possibility i’m overly ignoring the difference in metagame, but negrek sure wasn’t nearly this infofishy in tvt. what i was talking about how setting arbitrary bars based on how we perceive others to play and then guide our reads almost purely by that is not going to lead us anywhere. more specifically, i was thinking about the abundance of the word “disingenuous” in my kokolongpost in acnh, where…it turned out e wasn’t being disingenuous at all.

(skylar:) i'm sorry, what? the only reason negrek's claim works at all is because there were two kills (one of which makes perfect sense to have been coming from negrek given her eod), so unless you think the mafia coordinated both of these kills—for which there is no evidence—this makes zero sense.

…huh?
these are the possibilities i am seeing:

• v!negrek vigged herbe. mafia killed hydrei.
• w!negrek killed herbe. hydrei was vigged.

i don’t think there’s a world where negrek did not kill herbe.

 

[RNP]

i also have a theory about this game but it sorta outs me. i wonder if it’s the same.

i can’t take this out of my head. @RedneckPhoenix if i told you my theory doesn’t work if negrek is telling the truth about last Night’s events, what would you say?

to which one are you referring

 

[rari_teh]

i also have a theory about this game but it sorta outs me. i wonder if it’s the same.

i can’t take this out of my head. @RedneckPhoenix if i told you my theory doesn’t work if negrek is telling the truth about last Night’s events, what would you say?

to which one are you referring

more specifically, her vigging herbe based on his 3p claim
i swear this makes sense, i just can’t really elaborate without claiming

 

[RNP]

oh.

then no not in the slightest

 

[bruh moment]

yes, of course. but that is not the point here. the only thing that was not clear was if/how mafia would be notified of his role’s activation. that was the last shred of possibility of his role being put into use. and negrek insisted in extracting that piece of information from him. once again i ask, why would town want to make that information public?

well, a few reasons, but it's important to preface that that information was already public; negrek was just asking for clarification. rnp had already said that mafia were notified, just not exactly how.

anyway, rnp clamming up about it wouldn't have served any purpose, because despite what you say about the "possibility of his role being put to use," the only reason rnp even posted about his role is because he had already determined he was not going to use it. it wasn't going to happen; rnp was pointedly never going to use his power on his own. that was the entire point. the only way his role could have possibly been of use at that point is if someone else figured out a way to make it useful and convinced him to follow that plan, which is exactly what negrek was trying to do.

i concede that there is a good possibility i’m overly ignoring the difference in metagame, but negrek sure wasn’t nearly this infofishy in tvt. what i was talking about how setting arbitrary bars based on how we perceive others to play and then guide our reads almost purely by that is not going to lead us anywhere. more specifically, i was thinking about the abundance of the word “disingenuous” in my kokolongpost in acnh, where…it turned out e wasn’t being disingenuous at all.

it's not really a "possibility"; you are definitely doing that by choosing to parse their behavior as wolfy rather than seriously considering the idea that it's just different. and for one thing, this isn't an "arbitrary bar"; it's based on an understanding of the former tcod metagame. negrek wasn't as "infofishy" in the last game, sure; but they had an investigative power there, and the extent of their participation in that game was essentially to report their results for the day and then kick back. just because they're making different kinds of posts here (because their function in the game is different) doesn't imply that they're a wolf, but that seems to be a big part of what's informing your read. for the record, it's still a big stretch to describe her asking clarifying questions to people who were clearly comfortable with fully divulging their roles as "infofishing."

…huh?
these are the possibilities i am seeing:

• v!negrek vigged herbe. mafia killed hydrei.
• w!negrek killed herbe. hydrei was vigged.

i don’t think there’s a world where negrek did not kill herbe.

i'm not really talking about that. i'm specifically referring to what you said here:

if anybody was looking at herbe and/or negrek during the Night, they would be able to attest her “vigging” and hopefully confirm her

this just doesn't really make sense? the mafia had no guarantee that there were going to be two kills last night, and if there weren't, it wouldn't make any sense for w!negrek to claim vig. it'd be better for her to just say nothing at all. and it's worth a mention that it's not like she came breaking down the door with a vigilante claim; i had to pull it out of her because she was literally ditching the thread.

the claim does make sense given her eod, and it makes less sense for her to claim it as a wolf because in that case there would clearly be another vigilante to counterclaim her, given the additional kill; unless you think that vigilante was either herbe or hydrei AND that the mafia knew that, claiming vig would be a large and pointless risk.
-q

 

[rari_teh]

well, a few reasons, but it's important to preface that that information was already public; negrek was just asking for clarification. rnp had already said that mafia were notified, just not exactly how.

i’m going to insist on this, what few reasons are you referring to? because i can’t think of a single town-sided reason to do so

negrek wasn't as "infofishy" in the last game, sure; but they had an investigative power there, and the extent of their participation in that game was essentially to report their results for the day and then kick back. just because they're making different kinds of posts here (because their function in the game is different) doesn't imply that they're a wolf, but that seems to be a big part of what's informing your read.

i really don’t see how one’s role within the same alignment would change how much information one requests from the others, but whatever ig. i can’t really argue with the old meta because 1. i wasn’t around to see it and 2. most of what i know about it was relayed to me from other people.

for the record, it's still a big stretch to describe her asking clarifying questions to people who were clearly comfortable with fully divulging their roles as "infofishing."

the problem isn’t in asking clarifying questions, but instead in the pattern of only asking things that really don’t have a good reason to be asked and doing little else. if it’s a stretch to call it infofishing it’s minor at best.

this just doesn't really make sense? the mafia had no guarantee that there were going to be two kills last night, and if there weren't, it wouldn't make any sense for w!negrek to claim vig. it'd be better for her to just say nothing at all. and it's worth a mention that it's not like she came breaking down the door with a vigilante claim; i had to pull it out of her because she was literally ditching the thread.

what i was trying to say is, if ultracool watched herbe or [unclaimed tracker] tracked negrek, they would have seen the kill. i don’t think that, if negrek is fakeclaiming, she is cooking that one up since before SoD.

the claim does make sense given her eod, and it makes less sense for her to claim it as a wolf because in that case there would clearly be another vigilante to counterclaim her, given the additional kill; unless you think that vigilante was either herbe or hydrei AND that the mafia knew that, claiming vig would be a large and pointless risk.

by claiming vig, if people believe in her, she’s pretty much putting under fire whomever killed hydrei. if she’s town, well, good, but if she’s mafia as i’m inclined to believe, she’s pretty much obligating the vig to out themself and counterclaim.

i think the real vigilante is laying among us and did not want to out themself.

 

[JackPK]

piping up to point out that she claimed JOAT and neither of y'all (er, none of the three of y'all?) seem to remember that

 

[RNP]

why would a joat kill either of them?

 

[RNP]

"i must use my one use of the vig power RIGHT NOW bc hydreigon was annoying/bc herbe... exists"

 

[rari_teh]

"i must use my one use of the vig power RIGHT NOW bc hydreigon was annoying/bc herbe... exists"

negrek manifested worry that herbe was an activated alien when bruh voted for him yesterDay, so that checks out