Gym Leader Choice Pokémafia 2 - Game Thread

[bruh moment]

I don't agree at all about your interpretation, though; IME "scum" is just a synonym for "anti-town" (example), which usually just means the mafia but could also include third-party roles that don't win with town. I don't really understand why this is a point of contention.

what experience are you referring to? afaict this has never been the case here, yet it still gets brought up every time. only tvt was confusing at all about this and butterfree herself said it was a flaw of the game. scum = mafia, third party (clearly) = third party since they’re flipping as third party and not scum.
-q

 

[bruh moment]

I don't know if I feel like ~four mafia and two 3p (or maybe three and three or something) feels more likely to me than oops all third party.

in prior MFia games, mafia wincon was reaching parity with /all other living players/, which feels compatible enough with there being multiple 3ps. i also don't really know why it's unthinkable that seshas and herbe just got unlucky tbh, and weighing that against the case that there's never even been a weird multiball game on this site is like :/ besides, seshas/herbe didn't just flip 'inno,' they flipped fully third-party and not "scum" which is what i'd assume the flip for mafia (as in, the mafia central to town wincon) would look like.

:| i think this is a distraction from scumhunting at this point
-m

 

[bruh moment]

there's never even been a weird multiball game on this site is like :/

well
a Surprise multiball that is [afaik]
-m

 

[bruh moment]

No... it... doesn't? It doesn't reference the presence of a mafia at all.

it does. we’re talking about it in the last couple posts here, but “you win when all scum players are dead” suggests pretty unambiguously to me that there are players aligned with scum (not self-aligned) that we must eliminate.
-q

 

[qenya]

what experience are you referring to? afaict this has never been the case here, yet it still gets brought up every time. only tvt was confusing at all about this and butterfree herself said it was a flaw of the game. scum = mafia, third party (clearly) = third party since they’re flipping as third party and not scum.

Pre-TCoD experience, but I don't think there's been a post-revival TCoD game where it would have been applicable. The only time the word "scum" has been included in mechanics/modposts, if I recall correctly, was in Cats (2019), which had no third parties at all.

The confusion in TVT was to do with outgroup mafia, not third parties.

:| i think this is a distraction from scumhunting at this point

Agree on this, though, whichever definition of "scum" you're using.

 

[Negrek]

Ugh again, I should mention that I'm a JOAT, not a vigilante, and that's why Zori's claim didn't seem immediately improbable to me, before anyone brings that up. But now I really am putting the laptop away.

 

[bruh moment]

i can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that mf would not use “scum” to refer to 3p here, and if she did, then herbe and zori would have flipped as scum. otherwise our role pms are misleading about our win condition, besides flips that count toward it aren’t obviously designated as such.

this is unproductive at best and misleading at worst, so i’ll leave it there, but i’m really not going to be taking any spec about “what if actually no mafia!? :000” seriously and i’m going to be side-eyeing anyone that does.
-q

 

[haneko]

I probably suggested that because my very first mafia game was a bastard one where every single player was self-aligned.
@bruh moment The thinking emoji is because I found your post very plausible and I'm currently reconsidering my stance on Tofu. Maybe I'm using reacts wrong.


Anyway, that's enough mafia for now. I'll return nearer the end of toDay.

 

[bruh moment]

after rereading a bit of tvt i got more comfortable in my vote
right back at ya, @bruh moment: could you give me your negrek and tofu thoughts?

so the reason we've been struggling so much to reply about negrek (aside from getting distracted by trying to respond to tofu/other discourse) is that (before the very recent posting) we ... had her exactly at null? i (mewt) haven't played with her beyond tvt, where neg's presence was overall different - she wasn't really in the thick of things, and a lot of her appearances centered around giving out role results - but we both think that it's like ... behavior pretty consistent with old meta, where claiming was done more openly and there was more importance given to understanding role mechanics as they were claimed.

in particular we read the interaction with rnp like, significantly differently from how you did - he'd already given up on using his "role," and he'd already claimed that mafia would be notified when he used it. (fwiw, negrek asking for clarification here mindmelded with us; we were like ??? that he claimed they'd be notified since he didn't mention it in the original claim.) so ... what new information did negrek pull out that would've hurt town and helped mafia? the way we read it it was like, kind of apparent that she was asking from the pov of someone who's used to having/handling mech info, and we thought she was searching for ways to make his role useful (and, to reiterate, he'd written it off as a lost cause). i'd even argue that its town rationale is exactly equivalent to what you said was anti-town about it at EoD; figuring out if rnp had the ability to fake mafia out was crucial to figuring out if the role had any utility left, especially when he'd literally used the phrase inthread already during his claim.

although i would also ordinarily be a little worried about rolefishing, i also think it's pretty important to consider that - if negrek is a) mafia and b) conscious of how her posts would come off (and i'm inclined to think so, because she's an experienced player) - then what you've presented would be tantamount to like ... pretty unnecessary/unprompted d1 openwolfing. do you think this world makes more sense than there being a fundamental difference in playstyles/attitudes?

in any case, i think that "asking for clarification on someone's unclear/weird role," from someone who we know has roots in old/more mech-focused and claim-casual meta, is a super far cry from "trying to drag info out of townies" when the most important stages (the roleclaim itself) had already happened in both tofu and rnp's cases.

Spoiler: some comments on your post itself ig

when he spills it, this is what she says:

Huh, interesting. Thanks!

It's definitely an odd role, but not at all outside the realm of what I would expect from MF. If you're telling the truth about it, then yeah, I think bruh moment was right in that now the cat's out of the bag, it's unlikely we'll be able to take advantage of it. But it would be very powerful, and I wouldn't totally rule it out yet.

emphasis mine. i have no words.

also i ... don't really know what you were trying to convey here to be honest, can you clarify?

considering that herbe, a self-proclaimed 3p, was seemingly the mafia kill toNight, i have the impression that the mafia shot herbe n0 and w!negrek is pulling her hair over the then recently-started herbewagon

this already wasn't really damning/evidence-based imo, but in light of neg claiming to have killed herbe i also think that this actually is +v and checks out with her EoD behavior

-m

 

[bruh moment]

@bruh moment The thinking emoji is because I found your post very plausible and I'm currently reconsidering my stance on Tofu. Maybe I'm using reacts wrong.

ah, i see! nw, im just used to it being used facetiously. thanks for explaining.
-q

 

[Zero Moment]

Okay, sorry. I don't know if I'll be able to return to actually play later, but obviously I can't stop thinking about this and at least I can clear up one thing. I killed Herbe last night, using Alakazam's psyshock. I don't think you should be too literal about flavor. Best guess with Hydreigon is the mafia wanted a kill that would say basically nothing, or they did in fact believe he was a roleblocker, or maybe it's yet another 3p with some kind of kill related wincon who saw an easy target that wouldn't be worth much information.

Oh. Hm. Well, there goes my theory.

@the discussion on Hydrei's flavor death: I think people are reading too much into the traps and such. I'm pretty sure that's indicating his role, which I assume was some passive trapper, given that Jack was paralyzed after visiting last night.

 

[JackPK]

Okay, sorry. I don't know if I'll be able to return to actually play later, but obviously I can't stop thinking about this and at least I can clear up one thing. I killed Herbe last night, using Alakazam's psyshock.

Ugh again, I should mention that I'm a JOAT, not a vigilante, and that's why Zori's claim didn't seem immediately improbable to me, before anyone brings that up. But now I really am putting the laptop away.

What made you decide to use your kill power when you did, and on whom you did?

Assuming you are telling the truth about being JOAT, I want to take this opportunity to head off any potential "overcurious" folks and say you probably should not share exactly what your other JOAT powers are besides the kill, and maybe not even how many you have overall, to avoid helping mafia to strategize.

 

[bruh moment]

What made you decide to use your kill power when you did, and on whom you did?

idk if she's here anymore considering what she last said, but i'm pretty sure it was rationalized here already

Hmm.

A little worried about activated alien. Maybe better to vig rather than lynch?

Of course, if Zori IS our only vig, that'd be problematic because they need badges and don't seem super likely to get them.

-m

 

[JackPK]

Okay, sorry. I don't know if I'll be able to return to actually play later, but obviously I can't stop thinking about this and at least I can clear up one thing. I killed Herbe last night, using Alakazam's psyshock. I don't think you should be too literal about flavor. Best guess with Hydreigon is the mafia wanted a kill that would say basically nothing, or they did in fact believe he was a roleblocker, or maybe it's yet another 3p with some kind of kill related wincon who saw an easy target that wouldn't be worth much information.

Oh. Hm. Well, there goes my theory.

@the discussion on Hydrei's flavor death: I think people are reading too much into the traps and such. I'm pretty sure that's indicating his role, which I assume was some passive trapper, given that Jack was paralyzed after visiting last night.

The good news is, if this is the case, whichever mafioso executed the kill is presumably paralyzed too? Of course, that means nothing if MF is following the "any mafioso can send in the kill" paradigm rather than the "chain of command" paradigm

Still maybe worth keeping in mind just in case there's no kill tomorrow, though

 

[Vipera Magnifica]

I thought of copying vm's ability and using it on myself next night phase, if that's possible, to protect me from vigging (or mafia, if they care), but that would be a panic move and wasting something otherwise useful, and won't keep me from a yeet toDay, obviously.

That's... not how my ability works.

as for Tofu, I'm sorry if this is bringing out-of-game considerations into the matter that shouldn't be brought in, but my automatic gutread in any VM/Tofu game is that, since they live together IRL, they would have subliminally noticed things IRL to suspect each other if they were anti-aligned and that would factor into their reads of each other in the thread (even if they don't consciously intend it). since that doesn't feel like it's happening, I feel like they are aligned, and I am moderately strongly townreading VM so that leads me to townread Tofu as well

I honestly did realize it before Blu posted, because I went back to look, and vm def heard me say "oh shit" sitting at the table next to him when I realized I messed up, but I didn't say anything because we are ~not talking about mafia~ and that just burdens him with trying to defend me, which is dumb

brief aside, but can we please avoid making IRL-based reads or comments like this, it really just isn't fair/productive and it doesn't. help. we already saw how it worked out in endgame cats :| the firsthand IRL reads are already uncomfortable and not in the spirit of the game, going another layer beyond that to "well, since they're together in-person, they would probably ..." is even more untenable.

especially side-eyeing tofu for saying that she didn’t mention it to him before because she knew better, only to bring it up now for no clear reason other than for cred.

I am disregarding any IRL-based reads I may have for this reason. Though since I do know her better than anyone here, I feel like she's playing exactly how I'd expect her to play as town. This is only her second mafia game ever though and I have no real point of comparison for her wolfgame aside from how she plays in Push the Button. I don't think she's the kind of person to draw attention to herself though in the scenario that she's mafia.

What about the town wincon do you think confirms the existence of a mafia faction? Because I'm looking at it now, and I'm not seeing it at all. I suppose it's just about possible that Mampers phrased different people's wincons differently, but that would be an exceptional level of bastardry.

the part that says we win when all scum are dead? scum does mean “independents,” it means mafia. in a town vs independent setup it would likely say “opposing factions” or something instead. idk why we have to question the very basic foundation and semantics of the game every time for no reason tbh.
-q

Oh, good, it does actually say the same thing for you. thank god. big TL on you for that.

Am I misreading the situation or did koko just backtrack on eir win condition?

 

[JackPK]

What made you decide to use your kill power when you did, and on whom you did?

idk if she's here anymore considering what she last said, but i'm pretty sure it was rationalized here already

Hmm.

A little worried about activated alien. Maybe better to vig rather than lynch?

Of course, if Zori IS our only vig, that'd be problematic because they need badges and don't seem super likely to get them.

-m

Yes, but I want to hear in her words why she picked out Herbe as potential activated alien as opposed to anyone else. (I.E. I don't want to make my own assumptions or hear anyone else's assumptions first, before she explains.)

 

[JackPK]

What about the town wincon do you think confirms the existence of a mafia faction? Because I'm looking at it now, and I'm not seeing it at all. I suppose it's just about possible that Mampers phrased different people's wincons differently, but that would be an exceptional level of bastardry.

the part that says we win when all scum are dead? scum does mean “independents,” it means mafia. in a town vs independent setup it would likely say “opposing factions” or something instead. idk why we have to question the very basic foundation and semantics of the game every time for no reason tbh.
-q

Oh, good, it does actually say the same thing for you. thank god. big TL on you for that.

Am I misreading the situation or did koko just backtrack on eir win condition?

I thought that interaction was just the result of em and q not being on the same page about what can constitute "scum," but admittedly I may be reading the situation too shallowly

 

[Vipera Magnifica]

What about the town wincon do you think confirms the existence of a mafia faction? Because I'm looking at it now, and I'm not seeing it at all. I suppose it's just about possible that Mampers phrased different people's wincons differently, but that would be an exceptional level of bastardry.

the part that says we win when all scum are dead? scum does mean “independents,” it means mafia. in a town vs independent setup it would likely say “opposing factions” or something instead. idk why we have to question the very basic foundation and semantics of the game every time for no reason tbh.
-q

Oh, good, it does actually say the same thing for you. thank god. big TL on you for that.

Am I misreading the situation or did koko just backtrack on eir win condition?

I thought that interaction was just the result of em and q not being on the same page about what can constitute "scum," but admittedly I may be reading the situation too shallowly

Hmm I see... I still assume that koko would known though that "mafia" and "scum" are used interchangeably.

 

[Vipera Magnifica]

That's probably nothing worth considering, and now that I think about it w!koko would not have even mentioned the town wincon if e was unsure about it

 

[Vipera Magnifica]

I have a plan of action I want to suggest but I'd prefer to let more of the day naturally unfold before doing so

Should I offer my suggestion now? Or are there other things we want to finish discussing first

It's a bit against-the-grain of current meta so I expect some disapproval; I'd rather not completely redirect the conversation though if there's other things we want to resolve first