IMPORTANT: Mafia Rules

[Mai]

Then why do we have moderators? To enforce the rules, yes, but also to use their judgement in specific cases. It's not a horrible thing to do. Yes, do that. Why would we even need court cases in real life if everything could be determined by a rule?

The rule could just say "GM can use their own judgement if they believe the players are unnecessarily extending the game" or something similar.

But... the thing here is that mafia GMs pretty much do their own thing. Add it if you like--to your own games. It might catch on.

Sunflower: Stealth lynching can happen. Some people just don't pay much attention, and not everyone is lenient. I'm not really going to argue about the game that I'm not in, but.

 

[yiran]

Except stealth-lynching is basically impossible. Usually there has to be a clear consensus for a lynch to go through, and if the person doing the voting has no explanation for their vote, it's extremely suspicious and usually a good way of getting everyone to turn on them. In cases of ambiguity, the time is usually extended.

First of all "basically impossible" is one of those phrases that don't make sense. It is still possible and I have seen it happen on other forum mafias. However, that is not my main point here. It is a supplementary reason as to why my proposal is logical and should be accepted.

And I'm sorry,

Are you genuinely sorry for insulting me or are you just saying it as an offhand comment? Given the rest of your post, I assume it's the latter.

but you only brought up this concern after you had died, and brought up my game in particular right there in your post. Time limits are time limits, and unless you come to me directly and bring up a concern in how a deadline might clash with your timezone, I am not going to extend the time just for you. Time limits exist for a reason, and I can't just change them arbitrarily because that would screw up everyone else in the game, me included.

I could call this discrimination, if I were more extreme. Regardless, it's still not accounting others according to something that is not their fault, and that is unacceptable. Please detail how it would screw up everyone else in the game, I do not get it.

Yes, I'm irritated, because instead of communicating with the mod on what would best fit your timezone you decided to come here and try to get the official rules changed to something that would make life harder for anyone else trying to run a game (and it still doesn't change the fact that you did have a chance to post your input for the Day, so it's not like you were shut out completely)

You can be irritated, but that doesn't give you the right to insult someone.

I did have a chance to post what I knew; I did not have a chance to analyse the situation after I posted, because I was asleep. That has a negative effect on my game experience, and I do not wish for it to happen to me or any other players.

Pretty much every mod you will encounter will work this way. You're getting a negative reaction because what you're saying is generally impossible or implausible. We're not here to just tell you what you want to hear. It's been clarified for you. Case over.

It's not impossible or implausible. How is implementing that rule impossible or implausible?

STOP ANTAGONISING ME. I'm not here to listen to what I want to hear; otherwise I wouldn't be posting because I expected opposition. I'm trying to improve the game system for players, not to come up with a petty comeback at you for not extending the time, as you probably think.

And no, not case over. Unless someone comes up with a logical post that directly addresses my point without stealth insults riddled all over it, and I agree with their logic, I am not going to stop arguing for my point. That or my suggestion is implemented.

Look, I didn't post because I wanted to make you look like a bad host; I posted to improve (in my view) the game system. If you don't agree, fine; stop implying with your words that I am immature and want everything my way, and present a logical argument as to why my suggestion should not be taken.

Thank you.

But... the thing here is that mafia GMs pretty much do their own thing. Add it if you like--to your own games. It might catch on.

Hey, that's actually quite a good idea! Still, I'd suggest to make it somewhat official (maybe only to a small extent while encouraging to be more considerate), because otherwise there will be GMs who won't bother with stuff and make the game less enjoyable.

 

[1. Luftballon]

Then why do we have moderators? To enforce the rules, yes, but also to use their judgement in specific cases. It's not a horrible thing to do. Yes, do that. Why would we even need court cases in real life if everything could be determined by a rule?

The rule could just say "GM can use their own judgement if they believe the players are unnecessarily extending the game" or something similar.

then you write it into the rules as such, yes. by all means, write in a "extensions given at GM discretion" or a "extensions for votes except at GM discretion" -- the important thing is that once you've written the rules, you don't violate them. clarifying the rules, answering questions on the rules, reinterpreting the rules (so long as one does not contradict oneself) ... by all means, so long as one is careful not to upset the game setup (most usually through information leakage).

if a rule is written, such that, by nature, it must be interpreted subjectively -- say, something like "Posts are considered contributory/helpful at my discretion, but I will be fairly lenient with this." -- then certainly, they ought to be interpreted subjectively. that's what the rule says. contrarily, if the rule says something like "daytime will take a minimum of 24 hours, but extend to at least three hours beyond the last vote", then that is exactly what should be done.

if someone makes assumptions which are not necessarily reasonable, then if the assumption turns out to be unreasonable, the consequences might well be the result of its bad assumption. if someone is tripped up by the rules not working as they are stated to work, that is a failure on the part of the GM -- because a game without consistent rules is not a game which can be played.

 

[yiran]

then you write it into the rules as such, yes. by all means, write in a "extensions given at GM discretion" or a "extensions for votes except at GM discretion" -- the important thing is that once you've written the rules, you don't violate them. clarifying the rules, answering questions on the rules, reinterpreting the rules (so long as one does not contradict oneself) ... by all means, so long as one is careful not to upset the game setup (most usually through information leakage).

if a rule is written, such that, by nature, it must be interpreted subjectively -- say, something like "Posts are considered contributory/helpful at my discretion, but I will be fairly lenient with this." -- then certainly, they ought to be interpreted subjectively. that's what the rule says. contrarily, if the rule says something like "daytime will take a minimum of 24 hours, but extend to at least three hours beyond the last vote", then that is exactly what should be done.

if someone makes assumptions which are not necessarily reasonable, then if the assumption turns out to be unreasonable, the consequences might well be the result of its bad assumption. if someone is tripped up by the rules not working as they are stated to work, that is a failure on the part of the GM -- because a game without consistent rules is not a game which can be played.

Which is why I agree with putting it into the rules. Our ideologies don't clash here. In fact, I agree with your post. We should put it into the rules, with some discretion given to the GM.

 

[see ya]

Sunflower: Stealth lynching can happen. Some people just don't pay much attention, and not everyone is lenient. I'm not really going to argue about the game that I'm not in, but.

Fair enough, but it's not a very practical or common thing. And it's a result of normal play and not something that's the mod's responsibility to keep track of. Either way, I concede that I was wrong on that issue.

I could call this discrimination, if I were more extreme. Regardless, it's still not accounting others according to something that is not their fault, and that is unacceptable. Please detail how it would screw up everyone else in the game, I do not get it.

Because you are not the only one who has to worry about time. Deadlines exist because that may be when the mod can reasonably have the time to tally up actions and come to a conclusion as to what the players will find in the day. You are not the only person playing this game. It's not a result of anyone singling you out, it's a matter of keeping some kind of consistency to the game. And if I pushed the deadline back I'd be screwing it up for someone else who isn't in your timezone. See how that works? Time limits are not always going to agree with you. That's life.

I did have a chance to post what I knew; I did not have a chance to analyse the situation after I posted, because I was asleep. That has a negative effect on my game experience, and I do not wish for it to happen to me or any other players.

That's too bad. Deadlines are deadlines, and, for the hundredth time, most mods are not going to change rules to cater to you unless you have a damn good reason. And "I didn't have time to analyse the situation" is not a good reason. Why not just give an extension to everyone who just asks for it because "they need time to think." The line has to be drawn somewhere.

It's not impossible or implausible. How is implementing that rule impossible or implausible?

For the reasons that creating totally arbitrary day/night lengths is impossible/implausible.

STOP ANTAGONISING ME. I'm not here to listen to what I want to hear; otherwise I wouldn't be posting because I expected opposition. I'm trying to improve the game system for players, not to come up with a petty comeback at you for not extending the time, as you probably think.

And no, not case over. Unless someone comes up with a logical post that directly addresses my point without stealth insults riddled all over it, and I agree with their logic, I am not going to stop arguing for my point. That or my suggestion is implemented.

I did. And you did nothing but take it personally and tried to repeat the same thing over and over. I stated in my initial rules that days were going to last 24 hours. You read the rules. You decided to join the game.

Time limits are a thing that are entirely at the mod's discretion, and as such putting what you're suggesting into the official rules would restrict this freedom for a mod to run a game in the best way possible for them. If you want some more wiggle room, do so in your own games. But do not try to get official rules changed just because a time limit disagreed with you in one particular game.

The bottom line is, what you're suggesting can't be added to the official Mafia rules. Start doing it yourself if you want, but when a mod sets up rules, that's their rules, and if you don't like them, don't join.

 

[yiran]

Of course I'm taking it personally – you're insulting me, and that is a legitimate reason to take things personally. What "thing" did I repeat over and over?

Yes but a vote significantly alter gameplay and players should have the chance to speak about it. I didn't.

They wouldn't just be "cater"ing to me, also other people who are not in good timezones.

"Time limits are a thing that are entirely at the mod's discretion, and as such putting what you're suggesting into the official rules would restrict this freedom for a mod to run a game in the best way possible for them." The best way possible for the mods is a very different thing compared to the best way possible for the players.

Why can't it be added? Why can't something that is beneficial to the playerbase be added? How is creating non-linear (it's not arbitrary, and for the last time please use accurate words rather ones with implications I or my suggestion is stupid without any rational reasoning) timed phases implausible/impossible?

Answer my questions, or I am going to ignore your arguments. I'm tired of ignorance. And insults.

 

[Phantom]

Dude you seem to like starting arguments.

These are guidelines, not really rules. The GM sets the rules. If stealth lynchings happpen it's the towns fault for either being inactive , or, sadly, did something stupid. You need to relax, and btw we don't have mafia moderators, just members who start games. I didn't do anything special to GM, I just started a game. You can start your own too, or play mafias where you know the GM takes a majority vote rather than a 'bastard' vote.

The moderators enforce th main forum rules. I think that they'd only intervene should a GM or player go shit fuck crazy for lack of more detailed words.

You don't like it, don't play or pick your games, best advice I can give.


These 'guidelines' are only to teach people the basics of the game.

 

[Coloursfall]

dude, dude okay just. just stop, you're really not helping yourself here.

point the first: Sunny isn't insulting you. she is trying to get her point across while you are ignoring everything she says, and that's really really frustrating

point the second: just because there is something in this thread saying 'oh and also extensions??;, etc etc, not every gm will follow it. in fact, most probably won't. I probably won't. you get 24, or 48, or 37 or 85 or some other random number the gm pulled out of their butt that each phase lasts. this is mostly because this is a forum. when you mafia in an irc channel or chatroom you can change the times around as much as you want because you know your players are all there and it will only be a few minutes to like. an hour or something anyway. on a forum, you need to have guidelines for time or else nobody will post anything (and even when you do they won't, see; ASB)

point the third: you're still dead, dude.

just. seriously, quit while you're ahead for once?

if there are loads of typos/other misc. stupid, i'm sorry i'm kind of drunk rn

 

[Zora of Termina]

She's not insulting you and you're already ignoring her arguments. Most GMs are not, in fact, going to cater to the will of one specific person unless they have a very, very good reason.

Your time zone appears to be ones that is pretty unreasonable to expect someone in her time zone to be able to adhere to.

The rules stated here are guidelines. This has already been stated. Rules as stated in any given game thread depend on the GM and are usually final. They will not change for you.

 

[yiran]

Please point out the arguments I have ignored. I am not aware I have ignored them; I will gladly respond to them.

The thing is, I don't get why a rule with next to no negative effects could possible be a bad thing. I know it's only a general guide, but I don't see harm in the addition of my proposed rule.

See, it's probably a difference in the definition of "insult" we perceive. I believe she insulted me due to unnecessary descriptions such as "cater" and "make excuses" which are inaccurate and only serve to demote my legibility. You probably only think "You're dumb" can be an insult. Still, I do not enjoy the implied negativity. Please stop it.

Also, I know I'll stay dead. I'm trying to help future players here, not myself. You're the people ignoring the fact that I've said this wasn't to "get revenge" on the GM of the previous game or revoke my death. I only request the proposal to be implemented into the rules, not to get some privileges regarding the previous game.

Meh, I knew that arguing with an old member wouldn't do me any good, because a bunch of that person's friends would come and support them, whether they agree with the old member or not. Still, I'm confident with my debating skills and I really, really dislike dropping the subject just to become popular.

Nah, I don't like starting arguments. I like making proposals, which people happen to disagree with. An argument therefore ensues.

 

[Coloursfall]

you know i'm like 100% sure this isn't some "oh they're ~popular~" thing

just

just stop

please.

I don't think anyone but you cares enough about this beyond being exasperated at your behaviour, tbh

just play the stupid mafia and deal with the cards you're dealt like everyone else

I'm too drunk and tired for this so this is probably my last word on the subject GOOD DAY SIR

 

[see ya]

...now you're nitpicking my language. Really? Really?

Because you are not the only one who has to worry about time. Deadlines exist because that may be when the mod can reasonably have the time to tally up actions and come to a conclusion as to what the players will find in the day. You are not the only person playing this game. It's not a result of anyone singling you out, it's a matter of keeping some kind of consistency to the game. And if I pushed the deadline back I'd be screwing it up for someone else who isn't in your timezone. See how that works? Time limits are not always going to agree with you. That's life.

You completely ignored this.

Also by the way? I don't post much on these forums. I'm not that popular even if I've been here for a while. The fact that EVERYONE HERE STILL DISAGREES WITH YOU SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING.

In short:

I'm going to bed.

 

[ultraviolet]

okay, time out.

I could call this discrimination, if I were more extreme. Regardless, it's still not accounting others according to something that is not their fault, and that is unacceptable. Please detail how it would screw up everyone else in the game, I do not get it.

literally everyone lives in a timezone that is going to make things inconvenient on the internet in some way. I live in Australia! literally everyone is asleep about 80% of the time I'm online which makes it hard to participate in games! some people have busy schedules! some people have restricted internet access! refusing to give you an extension because it would mess up the game for everyone else is both reasonable and not in any way discriminatory!

The thing is, I don't get why a rule with next to no negative effects could possible be a bad thing.

Because you are not the only one who has to worry about time. Deadlines exist because that may be when the mod can reasonably have the time to tally up actions and come to a conclusion as to what the players will find in the day. You are not the only person playing this game. It's not a result of anyone singling you out, it's a matter of keeping some kind of consistency to the game. And if I pushed the deadline back I'd be screwing it up for someone else who isn't in your timezone. See how that works? Time limits are not always going to agree with you. That's life.

Even if this idea became part of these rules, they are a guideline. GMs set games to how they want and run them how they want; these rules aren't usually enforced by moderators unless something unfair is going on. if you don't like how a game is run, don't play it! problem solved! moderators are not going to be going around making sure games run to your liking; that rather goes against the spirit of this forum, which is that GMs have a lot of freedom to set up their games.

See, it's probably a difference in the definition of "insult" we perceive. I believe she insulted me due to unnecessary descriptions such as "cater" and "make excuses" which are inaccurate and only serve to demote my legibility. You probably only think "You're dumb" can be an insult. Still, I do not enjoy the implied negativity. Please stop it.

'Not wanting to get up at 3am' is an excuse, whether you want to call it that or not. Asking to have a rule added because it would make mafia easier for you is 'catering' to you.

Furthermore, Sunflower was largely civil and reasonable to you, and I can only assume you found it antagonising because you didn't get your way - if anything, you're antagonising her more. you suggesting this rule shortly after being killed in her game is obviously going to be read as passive-aggressive and rude whether you wanted it to or not. if you personally have suggestions for how she GMs or if you actually think what happened was unfair, you should be discussing it with her privately or with a Moderator, not in a public thread.

Meh, I knew that arguing with an old member wouldn't do me any good, because a bunch of that person's friends would come and support them, whether they agree with the old member or not. Still, I'm confident with my debating skills and I really, really dislike dropping the subject just to become popular.

And no, you don't get to complain about something that happened to you in a game, whine about the GM of said game and 'everybody else' being against you and then chalk it up to the GM being 'popular'. People have given you their reasons and you've ignored them. For someone who thinks they're 'confident in their debating skills', you would think that bringing ~popularity~ into a discussion where it's irrelevant and trying to gain sympathy because nobody agrees with you would be bad debating practice! for the record, I'm not really friends with any of these people (not that I don't like you guys, we just swim in different social ponds, if you will).

tl;dr: GMs set games to how they damn well want, if you don't like it, don't play, consider that maybe people tending to disagree with you all the time isn't their fault

 

[yiran]

ultraviolet is the only one who is not posting satirical pictures to demean me, so I'm only going to respond to her. Thank you for your consideration.

okay, time out.

literally everyone lives in a timezone that is going to make things inconvenient on the internet in some way. I live in Australia! literally everyone is asleep about 80% of the time I'm online which makes it hard to participate in games! some people have busy schedules! some people have restricted internet access! refusing to give you an extension because it would mess up the game for everyone else is both reasonable and not in any way discriminatory!

It still is an inconvenience to those who are in a different time zone, which is not of their control. In my dictionary, that could be classified as discrimination, but since they have no choice I don't. I still don't get why giving an extension would mess up the game, though. Maybe it would be slightly inconvenient, but definitely not as far as "mess up". I mean, I do get the part about it would have to apply to everyone; that is a fault in my proposal. However, it could be tweaked to make it more valid, but let me respond to your other points first because tweaking it now, as I see it, is probably a waste of time as there is no intention of implementing my suggestion.

Even if this idea became part of these rules, they are a guideline. GMs set games to how they want and run them how they want; these rules aren't usually enforced by moderators unless something unfair is going on. if you don't like how a game is run, don't play it! problem solved! moderators are not going to be going around making sure games run to your liking; that rather goes against the spirit of this forum, which is that GMs have a lot of freedom to set up their games.

I see. Since you're a moderator, I'm going to take your word that a game can be anything as long as it is fair, right?

'Not wanting to get up at 3am' is an excuse, whether you want to call it that or not. Asking to have a rule added because it would make mafia easier for you is 'catering' to you.

Okay, I guess "make excuses" is true, then. But I believe the others still valid; it won't just make it easier to me, also other mafia players.

Meh, I think we can skip the word choice thing; I know I brought it up, but I'm not going to listen to them if it keeps happening, so it's irrelevant.

Furthermore, Sunflower was largely civil and reasonable to you, and I can only assume you found it antagonising because you didn't get your way - if anything, you're antagonising her more. you suggesting this rule shortly after being killed in her game is obviously going to be read as passive-aggressive and rude whether you wanted it to or not. if you personally have suggestions for how she GMs or if you actually think what happened was unfair, you should be discussing it with her privately or with a Moderator, not in a public thread.

Maybe from an outside standpoint she was civil, but I read between her lines and I felt insulted. I apologise if it is read as passive-agressive and rude; I will state here that I am not trying to antagonise Sunflower with this suggestion in any way. Now that's clear, I don't think that was unfair, I just wanted to propose something.

And no, you don't get to complain about something that happened to you in a game, whine about the GM of said game and 'everybody else' being against you and then chalk it up to the GM being 'popular'. People have given you their reasons and you've ignored them. For someone who thinks they're 'confident in their debating skills', you would think that bringing ~popularity~ into a discussion where it's irrelevant and trying to gain sympathy because nobody agrees with you would be bad debating practice! for the record, I'm not really friends with any of these people (not that I don't like you guys, we just swim in different social ponds, if you will).

You know what? I asked plenty of my friends, and they all happen to agree with me. I actually said "if you think I'm the one being stubborn and arrogant, just say it", and they all agree with me (and not to insult, but one of them actually called my opposition "terribly arrogant"); bear in mind these friends criticise my writing and my classwork (including debate speeches) heavily. Since they're not members of TCoD their opinion isn't quite relevant but that definitely demonstrates that a friendship with someone makes them more likely on your side.

tl;dr: GMs set games to how they damn well want, if you don't like it, don't play, consider that maybe people tending to disagree with you all the time isn't their fault

Okay. I'm still in doubt about the fact that everyone disagrees with me is because of what they actually think. Still, if my opinion's not appreciated here, I'll just shut up. But anyway, I learnt a valuable lesson – using adjectives or other words to insult people passively is okay here, so I can do that in the future to strengthen my arguments. Yay!

But really, to be honest, even though I may have been arrogant in this thread, I actually genuinely thought it was best for the players, and that Sunflower was antagonising me. Whatever. Case closed, I lose.

(I am also genuinely frustrated at the people who post rude pictures depicting me, and I want to destroy them using my own pictures, but that would be hypocritical.)

 

[Zexion]

yiran, I see where you are coming from. But, the things stated here are for people to refresh themselves or learn. A GM makes the time limits, like 24-hours, for a reason. They state these in the sign-up thread. It is the duty of the player to make sure to say what they want before the phase is up. Everyone that has posted in this has stated this in one way or another with/without knowing it. The player, once accepting to play the Game, must make sure that they get what they want said before they run out of time. I'm not going to bother quoting, but you must go to the GM if you want to say something else. I have only done one game, and it is stressful on me to write the descriptions. A GM will give you that certain ammount of time to post, but you have to make sure to ask if you need the extension. If you have something to say, but can't be on the computer before the End-of-Phase. Ask the GM before you get off for and extension.

I personally feel this has gotten out of hand. Mafia is a game, and these 'guidelines' posted at the start of the thread are only suggestions that a GM will follow. Every GM has their own tastes and will make the rules and schedules to fit theirs. Everyone that has said anything thus far has a valid point. But you must talk to the GM and work something out. The way the game is played is off of hunches, unless the cop/detective gets lucky. And where you have gotten this additude of 'the older members will have their friends backing them up'* is unknown to me.

I am sorry if a game has made you feel like you do, but, before making a jump like you did, talk to the GM. They often will help you reach an agrement. But, the only way for that to happen is to talk to them. Lynchings happen, sometimes unfairly, but that is the game. And, no one is trying to criticize/demonize/dowgrade you. We want to help you and show you. You said that you were new to the forum-based Mafia when you joined mine, so, listen and think to what we are saying. We only want to help you.

*sorry if that isn't exactly how you placed it, it is how i read it
(i feel i was too repetitive in that)

 

[Phantom]

ultraviolet is the only one who is not posting satirical pictures to demean me, so I'm only going to respond to her.

Uh, what? I did not post any images, neither did many of the people who responded to you, only Colours and Sunflower did. It's a little rude of you to say that.

 

[yiran]

Uh, what? I did not post any images, neither did many of the people who responded to you, only Colours and Sunflower did. It's a little rude of you to say that.

Sorry, I apologise for being rude to you by implying you posted images, as well as some others. I viewed you (and the others) and Colours and Sunflower as a group. It was probably because I was really frustrated at Colours and Sunflower I forgot about the rest (except for ultraviolet who posted after them).

In any case, the argument has ended, so I think we can reconcile. :)

 

[Superbird]

By signing up for a mafia game, you agree to all the rules and parameters a GM has set up. If you don't like it then don't join.