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Life after Death?

And then there's the well-known thing about why won't God stop evil.

To quote off the top of my head:
"Is he willing, but not capable? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he capable, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both capable and willing? Then why won't he stop evil?
Is he not capable nor willing? Then why call him God?"

He doesn't stop us because he respects our decision to shun him and do evil.


Either you have something from nothing, or an eternal something. The latter sounds a lot more convincing, since something existed before the Big Bang, too.

but your whole problem is that the big bang would have no cause - the eternal something wouldn't have had either...
 
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He doesn't stop us because he respects our decision to shun him and do evil.
Why would he do that though? God is omniscient; surely he knows that with great power comes great responsibility! Saying that he "respects our decision" is just a prettier way of saying that he could make things better but doesn't (presumably because he doesn't exist). Don't try to pull the "free will" card - the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being is not compatible with that of free will in any way. And besides, what about natural disasters? And why would he send people to Hell?

but your whole problem is that the big bang would have no cause - the eternal something wouldn't have had either...
Sounds a bit like God.
 
but your whole problem is that the big bang would have no cause - the eternal something wouldn't have had either...

... well, yes. Something that is eternal by definition has no cause; but I find that easier to believe than something not eternal which has no cause. To put it another way, I find it easier to believe that the universe has always existed (in some form or another) than to think it was created by some process unknown.
 
He doesn't stop us because he respects our decision to shun him and do evil.

But people can accept and him and do evil as well...

Besides, shouldn't God know what we're gonna do ahead of time? Because if he knows ahead of time, then he can stop it before it happens and no one has to be punished.
 
none of you get it - he could stop us with zero effort (he is omnipotent), but he does not want to force us to follow him - he gives us the opportunity to reject him and do whatever the hell we want if we'd rather do that.
 
But that makes no sense, because it means God doesn't care about our belief. If he cared that we believed and rewarded faith, why would he give us a choice not to believe? Why would he make his creation such that he gives us free will to reject him, when if he cares about faith, he could have made us so that we all believed in him?

If God can but does not stop evil, then he is not benevolent.
 
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none of you get it - he could stop us with zero effort (he is omnipotent), but he does not want to force us to follow him - he gives us the opportunity to reject him and do whatever the hell we want if we'd rather do that.

Right, and then we have the lovely opportunity to burn in Hell.
 
I don't mean to offend anyone, but, the reason why Christianism(sp?) is popular is because it's just what the Roman poverty wanted to hear.

"Your life now doesn't matter because if you believe in God you're going to a totally better place when you die."

It wasn't the only religion that popped up back in these days, you know. They were all over the place. It's just that, suddenly, one was not only what some believed in, but also what the majority by far wanted to believe.

EDIT: Not to mention they could have the assurance that the rich ones would burn in Hell once they died.
 
none of you get it - he could stop us with zero effort (he is omnipotent), but he does not want to force us to follow him - he gives us the opportunity to reject him and do whatever the hell we want if we'd rather do that.
You still haven't explained the existence of Hell, or of things that are beyond the control of us humans (natural disasters, accidents, diseases)...

In any case - if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then free will cannot exist for anyone else. He knows everything that is going to happen in the future; this means that we are "destined" to do certain things, and even though we think we are capable of making choices, we really aren't.

If our lives aren't already set in stone, then God isn't able to predict everything and thus is not omniscient. But if we have no ability to influence the future, then all responsibility rests on him. You see where I'm going with this?

EDIT: I see you made a new post; well, why would God give anyone the choice to go to hell and suffer for all eternity? That's not benevolent in the slightest.
 
He knows everything that is going to happen in the future; this means that we are "destined" to do certain things, and even though we think we are capable of making choices, we really aren't.

we still choose to do whatever we want to - it's just that God knows what we are going to want to do

EDIT: I see you made a new post; well, why would God give anyone the choice to go to hell and suffer for all eternity? That's not benevolent in the slightest

because he respects us - our existence is pointless if our decisions mean nothing
 
we still choose to do whatever we want to - it's just that God knows what we are going to want to do
So basically, some of us are just doomed to go to Hell from the day we're born? I mean, God already knows we're on our way down, but he's not gonna change anything, is he?

because he respects us - our existence is pointless if our decisions mean nothing
Personally I'd argue that they don't anyway, but that's beside the point. In any case - how is he "respecting us" by sending us to Hell?

Oh, and by the way - hate to sound like a broken record, but it would be great if you could explain the existence of aforementioned Hell, or of natural disasters, accidents, diseases...
 
we still choose to do whatever we want to - it's just that God knows what we are going to want to do

But if it's bad, why doesn't he stop us? Why is he leaving the world to its own devices, letting people be awful? Surely that makes him an asshole pur sang! What a twat. I can help you to become a good person, but considering I respect the fact you're an idiot, I'll just let you burn in hell because IT'S WHAT YOU WANT LOLERS



because he respects us - our existence is pointless if our decisions mean nothing

if our decisions are what counts for hell or not faith in God is worthless anyway and we may as well not take regard of his existence
 
Personally I'd argue that they don't anyway, but that's beside the point. In any case - how is he "respecting us" by sending us to Hell?

because we decided not to follow him - we're not his minions and he's not going to force happiness down our throats (that would be an almost 1984-like existence)

Oh, and by the way - hate to sound like a broken record, but it would be great if you could explain the existence of aforementioned Hell, or of natural disasters, accidents, diseases...

I've always thought of hell as self-inflicted isolation from God (so no fiery agony) - we go there if we refuse to admit our sinfullness. The only problem with this theory is that apparently God doesn't allow us to relinquish our sinful ways once in Hell - why would he?

...all the others are just part of the way nature works in this imperfect world

But if it's bad, why doesn't he stop us? Why is he leaving the world to its own devices, letting people be awful? Surely that makes him an asshole pur sang! What a twat. I can help you to become a good person, but considering I respect the fact you're an idiot, I'll just let you burn in hell because IT'S WHAT YOU WANT LOLERS

the previous point about 1984-like existence

if our decisions are what counts for hell or not faith in God is worthless anyway and we may as well not take regard of his existence

he still deserves our worship - he is our creator...
 
we still choose to do whatever we want to - it's just that God knows what we are going to want to do

But if it's bad, why doesn't he stop us? Why is he leaving the world to its own devices, letting people be awful? Surely that makes him an asshole pur sang! What a twat. I can help you to become a good person, but considering I respect the fact you're an idiot, I'll just let you burn in hell because IT'S WHAT YOU WANT LOLERS



because he respects us - our existence is pointless if our decisions mean nothing

if our decisions are what counts for hell or not faith in God is worthless anyway and we may as well not take regard of his existence
 
because we decided not to follow him - we're not his minions and he's not going to force happiness down our throats (that would be an almost 1984-like existence)
If God has the power to make everyone happy, then as an omnibenevolent god, he should. I'd much rather he forced happiness down our throats than eternal suffering. Admittedly I've yet to read the book, but I'm fairly sure the totalitarian government in 1984 didn't actually have complete power to make people happy, and certainly didn't always try to...

In other news - I find it very ironic that you'd refer to 1984 in an attempt to defend God...!

I've always thought of hell as self-inflicted isolation from God (so no fiery agony) - we go there if we refuse to admit our sinfullness. The only problem with this theory is that apparently God doesn't allow us to relinquish our sinful ways once in Hell - why would he?
Fair enough. I've always thought of God as non-existent. The only problem with this theory is that - oh, right.

...all the others are just part of the way nature works in this imperfect world
Why would God create an imperfect world? Once again, pointless cruelty.

the previous point about 1984-like existence
Even disregarding the fact that I don't think free will is compatible with God as we know him - what makes you think free will has any inherent value? What is the good thing about letting people make horrible mistakes? I, for one, would count myself blessed if I could only make the right decisions.

God is omnipotent. You keep going on about God wanting us to be able to choose, but why? Why not just make everything perfect? Because we would lose our "free will"? Why is an almighty God not capable of integrating free will into the perfect world? What does free will even matter, if the world is perfect? A perfect world is flawless by definition; unless you're going to argue that we live in the best of all possible worlds, God cannot possibly be both completely benevolent and omnipotent.

he still deserves our worship - he is our creator...
... Of course he is.

I thought we weren't his minions though? And besides, why would he want us to worship him?
 
it has stayed popular long after that
And why would that be? Because the rich minority of Rome decided to swallow it down becuase it was much too powerful for them to keep the opression on. From there, it was shoved down the throats of every new generation. To the point it pretty much ruled the medieval world.

God is omnipotent. You keep going on about God wanting us to be able to choose, but why? Why not just make everything perfect? Because we would lose our "free will"? Why is an almighty God not capable of integrating free will into the perfect world? What does free will even matter, if the world is perfect? A perfect world is flawless by definition; unless you're going to argue that we live in the best of all possible worlds, God cannot possibly be both completely benevolent and omnipotent.
If I may, a slight addition: if free will is a good thing, a perfect world would be able to have that along with not having it cause the serious consequences it does. Maybe it's hard for us to think about how a world can be both of free will and free of evil -- but wasn't your God ominpotent, omniscient and benevolent, again? Besides, if we are a creation of God, I'd hardly think he'd make us capable of evil. I mean, sending people to Hell would equal to teaching a dog how to attack a postman, then put it down because it attacked a postman.
 
because we decided not to follow him - we're not his minions and he's not going to force happiness down our throats (that would be an almost 1984-like existence)

but clearly happiness is preferable to sadness and God is benevolent

so err... this doesn't make any sense. why does god have to make us take the long road and why are we supposed to only be happy by believing in him isn't he just being a douchebag that he isn't giving the chance to everyone?

what about people that don't know about his existence? etc etc

you cannot have an omnibenevolent being and free will at the same time
 
Omnipotence contradicts itself. Omniscience contradicts itself. Why are we even having this discussion?
 
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