Pokémafia - Super Mystery Dungeon

[Herbe]

alright i think rnp is the poisoner and made some bullshit up about that role - i mean come on. not being able to target the same person twice in a row and yet having your roleblocker identity totally blown open (while Knowing that you're blocked) without having any definite knowledge of if your roleblock worked or not? like yeah the no kills thing is a factor so like you would know that way hypothetically but it just seems like a fantastic way to get killed the next day.

anyway I'm Jirachi I'm the oracle and I got a poem last night about not just worrying about night kills but also that there's a poisoner out there. and i Did get the "rnp visited you last night" message so i'm willing to bet it's a poisoner role that can be used instead of the nightkill that reveals poisoner identity to debuff it or something

 

[Herbe]

excellent job getting ahead of the narrative though darling very 4d chess of you

 

[Herbe]

alright i think rnp is the poisoner and made some bullshit up about that role - i mean come on. not being able to target the same person twice in a row and yet having your roleblocker identity totally blown open (while Knowing that you're blocked) without having any definite knowledge of if your roleblock worked or not? like yeah the no kills thing is a factor so like you would know that way hypothetically but it just seems like a fantastic way to get killed the next day.

this is me mechanically trying to poke holes in this because fundamentally i know he is lying about his role so he's gotta have some reason to be lying.

 

[Herbe]

god there's just no world where i survive to day two is there. either i get voted out today or poisoned and die tomorrow night or i get nightkilled tomorrow to frame RNP by my poisoner accusation if by some world that's what's goin on. (which.... i mean he's demonstrably lying about Something here at the end of the day so scenario 3 is a long shot but like. point is im dying.) its a shame cause like i fucking love the oracle role

 

[Novae]

same as it ever was

 

[Herbe]

my poem also mentioned quartz lens/ infectious stones, rocks for the record

 

[M&F]

the two of yall sure have an idea of what constitutes flirting, you know that?

anyway, here we go again. from the top...
-RNP is claiming roleblocker, with some specific stipulations. ostensibly: he can't pick the same target consecutively; he can only block killing actions; and if he does block a kill, the target... well, "learns his name", but that's not altogether totally specific. like, I can't tell if the message the target would be getting is "you have been targeted by RNP", or "you have been roleblocked by RNP", or even "you have been roleblocked by RNP right on your kill action". or just "RNP". that's almost certainly not it but it'd be funny as hell-- you roll up into the night like whaddup I got a kill and the GM just turns your way and says "no. RNP."
-Herbe is putting up a contradictory claim; they're claiming oracle, which would lack a kill action, and would also most likely be able to tell pretty easily if they had in fact been roleblocked in a given night (they wouldn't be receiving info in that case). they're claiming that they nonetheless did "learn RNP's name" last night -- specifically, that they got an "RNP targeted you" message.
-Herbe is also claiming that the information they got last night was... in the form of a poem... about quartz lens and poisonous stones? (istfg Zori--) telling them that, in addition to the typical nightkill, we're potentially dealing with a poisoner. Herbe is furthermore theorizing that RNP is this poisoner, that the namedrop situation is most likely the cost of doing business that way, and that RNP is preemptively pushing for a lynch in order to get ahead of Herbe claiming to have received that message.

anyway, having summarized it, I think I'll get to trying to reason my way through these claims in my next post

 

[Novae]

i believe herbe because of them saying they got the message from rnp

i don't necessarily disbelieve rnp due to this

 

[M&F]

well then, let's have a good look at what we have here in our palms, shall we?

RNP's claim is, for the most part, actually not all that implausible. a roleblocker that only blocks kills may seem overly narrow, but for a town roleblocker, that's ultimately a net positive -- means you can blindfire the power without taking on much of a risk of interfering with useful town powers, while retaining the ability to stop what's usually the scum team's most crucial ability. conversely, not being able to target players consecutively isn't an entirely unfair tradeoff for that; what it essentially does is take away your ability to completely lock down a particular mafiosx's kills by targeting them persistently. still though, the part where your target also gets a friendly little note about your actions is where I start to think I may be looking at one too many added stipulations for totally fair plausibility here -- and lo, that's also precisely the part of the role that even Herbe is corroborating here, so it'd be a safe assumption to make that it's legitimate, whatever else about the role is or isn't.

(it's also worth noting that RNP is flavorclaiming Pancham, and that discarded PM flavor we have on our palms from the Day text is Pancham's bestie, Shelmet, as a scum role. I don't think that should go unnoted, but I also don't think it necessarily, or even probably, amounts to something.)

Herbe's claims, on the other hand, are frankly raising a couple of red flags for me. I'm not going to shade just the concept of an oracle that receives information in vague fanciful forms, but the thing that's tripping me up here is that Herbe hasn't led by claiming what question they asked to receive that answer. now, the other part of it all is strictly speculation, which means it's passible of simply coming from a place of being town but also wrong, but the explicative they've offered up to possibly explain RNP's actions isn't really holding water. see, a regular poison kill is close to on par with a regular vannila kill in terms of efficacy -- the delay can be costly, but it can also help to throw off the town powers' efforts at identifying or preventing the kill. the added stipulation of notifying the victim of the poisoning, though, assuming it's the only added stipulation, makes this a strictly inferior method of killing, as it potentially draws attention from the selfsame town powers that it's supposed to be evading. I can't imagine that being a favourable choice in lieu of a regular nightkill. most crucially, though... what kind of mafia poisoner unpromptedly attempts to lynch their poison victim? that player is about to die anyway!

so yeah -- so far, what this looks like to me is that RNP might actually be telling the truth this time, and Herbe might be offering up a hasty emergency fakeclaim to stay above the water. still, we have the rest of the Day to keep the discussion going.

(plus, it might not be worthwhile to discard the possibility that one or both of the lovebirds here are simply not playing to their wincon. for starters, this might just be RNP's idea of payback for PLA Mafia just now--)

 

[RNP]

hey zori you forgot the rule about screenshotting/cping role pm's

i'm not gonna do it unless you say that's intentional but I Was Tempted

 

[RNP]

anyways the specific language, paraphrased slightly for rules' sake, is "if they're performing an action that would kill someone else, they'll be stopped from performing it, but they'll know that you visited them."

 

[RNP]

idk if "someone else" means "not me, rnp" or "not the target"

 

[Zori]

as a general rule you shouldnt copy paste or screenshot conversation messages etc etc

 

[Herbe]

but the thing that's tripping me up here is that Herbe hasn't led by claiming what question they asked to receive that answer.

i don't ask questions (presumably so that zori can share what she planned to share without dealing with me throwing curveballs or anything), i just learn something about the game every night. also the action /can/ be roleblocked so like rnp is not a roleblocker.

anyway i asked clarification and my poems in particular can be shared verbatim but not other parts of pms

Beware not bloodied blade alone:
But the quartz lens marred with infectious stone.
Beware the truth that the rock doth kill:
And "good news" is a herald for the ill.

 

[Herbe]

i do trust mf to a certain extent with her Knowledge of balance and such so there's a chance i'm just wrong here, or maybe i was trying to connect the dots that i saw super hard without looking for other answers. conf bias and all that. point is that rnp is not a roleblocker and i didn't use an action (the info comes to me passively even though it can be blocked or messed with)

 

[JackPK]

generally here M&F is persuasive to me (as always) and I am trying to logic things out without being influenced by her, but of course that's difficult to impossible

biggest point, I think, is that a poisoner is basically certainly not going to try to start a yeet train on their poison target. so I think that says for sure that RNP is not a poisoner (and is not ingroup mafia with someone else who is a poisoner, not that that's exactly relevant to this debate)

IF herbe's poem is real, that does point to a poisoner existing, though, so in the hypothetical world that herbe's poem is real, that would indicate that either the hypo!notRNP!poisoner is 3p and we separately have a blocked/healed mafia kill that we don't know about, or the hypo!notRNP!poisoner is mafia which clears RNP from being mafia (he could still be 3p but shrug who knows)

meanwhile basically all that's been "confirmed" about RNP's role is that it announced itself to herbe overNight -- which honestly could be anything and iirc town!RNP has a track record of fibbing about his role for benign reasons, so honestly I'm not sold on the weird roleblocker claim but I don't think that my thinking RNP could be fibbing necessarily means he'd be anti-town for doing it

tl;dr at this point I feel like RNP is more likely town than not in the sum of all these scenarios, whereas herbe could go either way. this could be v/v spidermans pointing at each other or it could be v/w... it's probably not w/w wolf theater? but one or both could very well be 3p resulting in this being antitown/antitown theater. idk

the day phase is still early, I'm not pressed to place my vote yet. I want to see how things continue to play out here

incidentally @haneko you haven't posted yet! and @Zero Moment @qenya y'all haven't posted since the start of the day! I'm interested to hear the three of y'all's thoughts on this

 

[M&F]

And "good news" is a herald for the ill.

generally here M&F is persuasive to me (as always) and I am trying to logic things out without being influenced by her, but of course that's difficult to impossible

that's cute that you think you can resist my power, mortal.

anyway, a role that passively receives random setup information without inputting questions... I don't think it's typically referred to as an oracle. like, I don't think there's a typical name for it regardless, so Zori might just have branded it as a variant oracle; still, any terminological imprecision here could be a symptom of a claim being made up on the spot. ... I sure enjoy playing mafia as someone who has a hard time discerning malicious intent-

incidentally @haneko you haven't posted yet! and @Zero Moment @qenya y'all haven't posted since the start of the day! I'm interested to hear the three of y'all's thoughts on this

and yeah, speak up yall! like, I don't think that'd be the best way to settle this, but we could theorically shelve the RNP v Herbe situation for one phase just to see if someone actually dies of poison... so I can and will start pressuring yall inactives if I feel it'd be productive,

 

[Herbe]

it wasn't branded as an oracle that was just what I thought the role was called

 

[Herbe]

i'm jirachi so i'm the astronomer that looks at the stars (is she trying to give the role name the astronomer?) otherwise i didn't get an actual role title. just got told what the role does which is lets me recieve some cryptic info on the game every night. cause i'm looking at the stars and figuring stuff out that way

 

[Herbe]

if i don't die of poison i at least think that there was a poisoner active last night and that's why we don't have a kill.