Reffing Discussion

[allitersonance]

But an EXP Share makes it easier to funnel some EXP to the pokémon who need it the most, and a lucky egg doubles the fun for the pokémon already ready to play.

Buy one today!

/advertisement

Since it's treated as a standard battle other than not taking up a slot and a few differences on the challenger's part, there's no reason not to give to usual amount of money - and since the prizes are the same as a normal battle, it has the very minor but still existing benefit of ensuring the referee actually knows what's going on with prizes and such.

Throwing in my support for the "challenger can use any non-legendary ever" if the challenger sends out.

However, I still do not recall signing an agreement to donate my items--

Ah. I see. The fine print on the 45th page of the "League-subsidised business" agreement. This is why I must destroy you.

I don't think it should be a consolation prize, though - and if it is, what are you intending to give if they win? If the challenger's already able to use any pokémon ever and is basically guaranteed to have a battle picked up quickly this way, these totally fantastic items that everyone should buy seem like they'd be fairly good as additional prizes for winning; consolation prize might be more along the lines of getting as much money as they would have if they won and/or maybe an extra experience point or two to distribute amongst their pokémon to match how much exp they'd earn if they'd won.

 

[M&F]

By the way, another hurdle is that we don't have constant fluxes of newbie trainers and referee tryouts. What would happen if a prospective referee wanted to try out but nobody new showed up for quite a while?

 

[Skylark]

By the way, another hurdle is that we don't have constant fluxes of newbie trainers and referee tryouts. What would happen if a prospective referee wanted to try out but nobody new showed up for quite a while?

Somewhere around page 2, I think it has been said that newbie trainers have priority for these mock battles. I don't see any reason why a normal trainer can't participate (without the shiny toys newbies get) if a newbie isn't available.

 

[Negrek]

I don't think it should be a consolation prize, though - and if it is, what are you intending to give if they win? If the challenger's already able to use any pokémon ever and is basically guaranteed to have a battle picked up quickly this way, these totally fantastic items that everyone should buy seem like they'd be fairly good as additional prizes for winning; consolation prize might be more along the lines of getting as much money as they would have if they won and/or maybe an extra experience point or two to distribute amongst their pokémon to match how much exp they'd earn if they'd won.

Sorry, I formatted that poorly--I meant the item would be an extra prize to the newbie if they won. For consolation prize, yeah, I'd probably just increase money to $5/pokémon or something. Not a huge change, but enough to make a difference.

By the way, another hurdle is that we don't have constant fluxes of newbie trainers and referee tryouts. What would happen if a prospective referee wanted to try out but nobody new showed up for quite a while?

Like Skylark says, I was just intending for the newbies (or, indeed, anybody who hasn't been able to get a referee for their battles) to be given priority. Basically, just post on the challenge board to say, "Hey, we're doing a mock battle here. Anybody new or really needing a battle, feel free to sign up." If you don't get any takers after, say, three days, you open it to the general public. If you still don't get any takers, heck, I'm sure I'd always be up for a fight.

 

[Zexion]

If I can still throw my 2 sense into here.
Maybe a wanabe ref could do a few rounds for a Arena and Two Battlers they created out of the blue. I know that when I can't get on here or I'm bored, I sit and write arena's and simulate mock battles. Maybe someone else does to, (doubted).

It's a thought.

 

[Negrek]

If I can still throw my 2 sense into here.
Maybe a wanabe ref could do a few rounds for a Arena and Two Battlers they created out of the blue. I know that when I can't get on here or I'm bored, I sit and write arena's and simulate mock battles. Maybe someone else does to, (doubted).

It's a thought.

You mean make up an arena and sets of commands yourself? That's how Serebii does it. The only issue I have would be that it would be pretty easy for people to come up with a command string that would be easy to ref rather than one that would give a real indication of the limits of their abilities.

However, this might be a more appropriate "initial test" than a list of questions... and then nobody would have to keep generating more, either, aside from the people who are applying. Thoughts?

 

[1. Luftballon]

You mean make up an arena and sets of commands yourself? That's how Serebii does it. The only issue I have would be that it would be pretty easy for people to come up with a command string that would be easy to ref rather than one that would give a real indication of the limits of their abilities.

However, this might be a more appropriate "initial test" than a list of questions... and then nobody would have to keep generating more, either, aside from the people who are applying. Thoughts?

the complexity of the command string they come up with does show how confident in their reffing ability, I suppose?

as an initial test, it would require some grading of the actual conditions, too, though!

 

[Negrek]

To an extent, but I don't think it would have to be all that thorough.

 

[Mai]

I'm not sure how this reflects on the idea, but sometimes when testing to see whether a strategy would work I'll do all the calculations myself and account for the worst possible scenario. It wouldn't be that hard to write up the results and all that.

Which means if I needed to apply to become a referee again in that scenario you'd probably see something that looked a lot like a pessimistic outcome of the tournament battle. I'd expect something similar with the prospecting referees, depending on how seriously they took their battles.

 

[1. Luftballon]

an idea for a test: take a round in a past battle; enumerate every possible deviation from the actual reffing; then, perform energy and damage calculations for each. this demonstrates the would-be ref's breadth of knowledge regarding things such as critical hits and move side-effects.

 

[Mai]

an idea for a test: take a round in a past battle; enumerate every possible deviation from the actual reffing; then, perform energy and damage calculations for each. this demonstrates the would-be ref's breadth of knowledge regarding things such as critical hits and move side-effects.

It wouldn't cover the written aspect, though (if it did that would be insane); also depending on how chaotic the round is things could wind up getting ridiculous.

 

[1. Luftballon]

more in the vein of "initial test" than a written test.

possible deviations wouldn't be too bad, really, though I suppose exploding all those possibilities and calculating each would be overwhelming.

 

[Negrek]

Yeah, there are way too many possibilities in a single round for someone to reasonably go through and enumerate them all.

 

[Zexion]

Has anything been figured out yet?

 

[Negrek]

Yeah, I'll get stuff together fairly soon.

 

[Negrek]

Now that we have a new approval system to try out, time to move on to the next thing.

Being a referee requires that you do essentially two things: determine what happens in a round and translate that into changes in health and energy scores, and then write about it. Some people find one or the other of these things daunting--either they hate writing, or they would prefer not to deal with the math. Some may be willing to do both, but may find one or the other significantly more enjoyable/easier. Therefore, I wondered whether people would be interested in the possibility of doing joint reffings--having one person do the calculations, say, then turn them over to the other to write it up. This has the potential to be very slow, as you need to coordinate between multiple people rather than just banging something out yourself, but it might allow some people who would not ordinarily be referees to participate, and might actually be faster if people are able to do only the parts of the reffing that they enjoy/are very good at.

Is there any interest in trying to modify the system to accommodate that kind of thing?

 

[Zero Moment]

I'd definitely do the math half of a reffing if another did the writing.

 

[allitersonance]

Keep in mind that, coming first, doing the math most likely won't be the easy bit where you use Negrek's handy calculator and subtracting from the pokémon's health/energy. It'd include all rolls for accuracy/effects, etc, as well as figuring out what actually happens, interpreting the commands and determining what interactions between attacks make sense and/or looking up Negrek's rulings. While you wouldn't actually do the writing, you'd probably have to make extensive notes for the writer; the amount of it may end up the same as if you'd written it yourself, though without the effort needed to do actual narration. The softer stuff (interpretations, etc) could also be a joint effort, but generally the calculator's doing the work first and then sending it off to the writer to essentially just polish things up for presentation. You'd also have to be readily available for communication purposes.

Though naturally in the actual examination the writer should be tested for decision-making abilities as well.

It's the examination that could be an issue, though. When judging a writer, if you want it to actually work as a battle, you'd want to see the calculations as well, but then who does the calculations? The examiner is also a participant in the battle, after all.

It would be ideal if every writer-applicant had a calculator-applicant to work with, but that could be relying too much on the chance that a calculator-applicant will come by. But that would make it harder to ref the decision-making process of the writer (unless they alternate or something). Though the writer has to additionally be tested on how they'd write when given varying amounts of control (due to the calculator usually having done the calculations already when they're actually working).

Granted, there's only so much you can do wrong with the writing - technical things and reading the AAG and being able to cobble the prose together and having the time/motivation to do it is all you need - so if you could secure a third party for the side-stuff, determining the writer's interpretation and referee-judgement skills wouldn't take that many rounds.

Applying for a calculator would be easier, though; the notes you're keeping and final calculations would probably be enough to make sense of what happened... as long as the battlers don't intend to do anything convoluted.

When it comes to choosing a battle from the Challenge Board to ref, unless a writer and calculator have both already chosen to take the same battle, I'd probably still give priority to a referee willing and able to do the entire job so that the challengers don't have to wait and see if the other half of the pair comes; a small window, maybe 24-48 hours, could be left open to complete the reffing team, though. And there's no reason a full-time referee couldn't also take a partial job, I suppose.

Payment, I'm just going to leave you to figure out, though the total could reasonably be more than what a single referee would get for the same round, given the work involved. (Which is why the part-timers would never be hired if Negrek didn't have unlimited money or was a reasonable businessperson.) Also, payment cuts for late reffings and stuff could be a thing, though if it's just generally ignored and you let the calculator and writer pressure each other into working faster, they might end up more efficient than single unmotivated already-wealthy referees.

you never said it had to be coherent

 

[Zhorken]

... but generally the calculator's doing the work first and then sending it off to the writer to essentially just polish things up for presentation.

Whaaaaaaaaaat? Figuring out how a round proceeds and doing all the numbers and stuff takes me ten minutes max. Actually writing it takes like two hours at minimum. Granted, not everyone writes ~900 words a reffing, but I still can't imagine the writeup not being the bulk of the work. o_o

(On that note, I would very gladly do all the mechanical stuff for someone who just wants to write.)

 

[allitersonance]

Yes, actually doing it as a ref generally has the math being the ridiculously easy part, with writing taking much longer, but depending on how convoluted the round actually is, it could get complex. Something like the BFA would be a nightmare to coordinate between two people, and if the calculator's ever going to be able to get above novice-rank (...if there are even ranks for partials; writing I can imagine, but calculators less so), it'd have to be able to deal with that stuff.

The point, essentially, was that the calculator can be expected to do everything short of the writing. The calculations are essentially the game (though the writing is what makes it ASB), and in theory you should be able to figure out what happened by just looking at the summary of the end stats and related notes in a battle.

Still, yes, if you want to compare things, the writer should probably be getting the majority of the cash.