M&F
tikitok
- Pronoun
- any
Arguably, it's been done before.
-
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Reffing Discussion
- Thread starter Negrek
- Start date
Lord of the Fireflies
Back in black.
blazheirio889
Banned
- Pronoun
- she
But the mentor shouldn't be punished because of the novice's inability to comprehend ASB calculations, or their inability to write.
The Omskivar
chah, dude
This. Advanced/Elite refs could volunteer to battle, but also to give advice/tips/corrections on the mock reffing. Maybe have a 1v1 and the battling refs would be paid in experience for their Pokemon.
Just throwing out ideas
Right, so, looking this over, most people seem to prefer option number two. It's also encouraging that some people would also be willing to volunteer to actually be one of the mentor-types. I agree with Kusari that we would probably want advanced/elite referees to do the mentoring.
In addition, I think Blastoise's idea of having a sort of "battle basics" quiz would be a good first step to weed out people who aren't willing/able to use the attack guide to find things or don't have a reasonable basic grasp of how things work. So someone who wanted to be a referee would complete that, and if they passed, would get paired up with a mentor to start their battle.
A couple of people have also suggested that the referee mentor should be one of the participants in the battle, and I think that's a great idea; people typically look at the reffings for battles they're in pretty closely to begin with. All you would need to do is provide more feedback than you probably otherwise would when you posted your commands, about what was done well in the last round if there were no mistakes to point out. I don't know about getting the round PM'd to you ahead of time; it's not the best for transparency, and if you keep all that stuff out in the thread, there's the bonus that other people could later come along and learn from it. Of course, for mentored battles at least, the person would need to include all their calculations and things the way they do for mocks at present.
The other possible upside to having the mentor being a participant in the battle is that, perhaps, it could act as compensation, rather than the money: that is, in exchange for mentoring the battle, you get a guaranteed battle (without using a slot), plus the EXP and monetary prize at the end. You could prioritize the other slot for someone in the league who's never gotten to battle before or has no current battle, so the system could both help get newer people involved by helping them become referees, as well as helping to get more battles for the traditionally overlooked, i.e. newer players who often have trouble getting battles reffed.
As for mentors half-assing the job: I would hope that the other people involved in the battle would complain; certainly, if it was noticed that you were doing this, you wouldn't be offered the opportunity to take any more apprentices.
In addition, I think Blastoise's idea of having a sort of "battle basics" quiz would be a good first step to weed out people who aren't willing/able to use the attack guide to find things or don't have a reasonable basic grasp of how things work. So someone who wanted to be a referee would complete that, and if they passed, would get paired up with a mentor to start their battle.
A couple of people have also suggested that the referee mentor should be one of the participants in the battle, and I think that's a great idea; people typically look at the reffings for battles they're in pretty closely to begin with. All you would need to do is provide more feedback than you probably otherwise would when you posted your commands, about what was done well in the last round if there were no mistakes to point out. I don't know about getting the round PM'd to you ahead of time; it's not the best for transparency, and if you keep all that stuff out in the thread, there's the bonus that other people could later come along and learn from it. Of course, for mentored battles at least, the person would need to include all their calculations and things the way they do for mocks at present.
The other possible upside to having the mentor being a participant in the battle is that, perhaps, it could act as compensation, rather than the money: that is, in exchange for mentoring the battle, you get a guaranteed battle (without using a slot), plus the EXP and monetary prize at the end. You could prioritize the other slot for someone in the league who's never gotten to battle before or has no current battle, so the system could both help get newer people involved by helping them become referees, as well as helping to get more battles for the traditionally overlooked, i.e. newer players who often have trouble getting battles reffed.
As for mentors half-assing the job: I would hope that the other people involved in the battle would complain; certainly, if it was noticed that you were doing this, you wouldn't be offered the opportunity to take any more apprentices.
M&F
tikitok
- Pronoun
- any
If we go with mentor participates in a battle and gives feedback openly, half-assing it would effectively be preventable by external intervention, I suppose.
Also, one point of concern: will there still be a way to try out for a promotion? At this rate, I am likely to be the last referee promoted by mock round, so, it figures I'd notice.
Also, one point of concern: will there still be a way to try out for a promotion? At this rate, I am likely to be the last referee promoted by mock round, so, it figures I'd notice.
allitersonance
Banned
Getting the round PMed to you ahead of time was sort of meant to be separate, if it's a mentor looking over but not participating in the battle; it wouldn't be as transparent or useful for others who'd want to look at how the mentoring goes, but it'd be potentially less messy if there are a lot of questions or things to fix. Granted, it also has the potential problem of not going forward, if each round has to be approved before being posted because the description's shoddy and the applicant isn't sure how to fix that (but might get better with practice) or something. But transparency is more important regardless.
The idea of both battlers in the pseudo-mock being a ref was meant to promote fairness and such (more likely to be on equal ground, both of them wanting to scrutinise the round to their own advantage instead of just one to make up for the reduced impartiality, etc) but saving a slot for newer players would probably help the new player learn as well, I suppose, especially if they're seeing how damage and energy play out.
However it's implemented, would all referees then start out as novices, or would you/the mentor just take the overall performance into consideration and assign a rank based on that?
The idea of both battlers in the pseudo-mock being a ref was meant to promote fairness and such (more likely to be on equal ground, both of them wanting to scrutinise the round to their own advantage instead of just one to make up for the reduced impartiality, etc) but saving a slot for newer players would probably help the new player learn as well, I suppose, especially if they're seeing how damage and energy play out.
However it's implemented, would all referees then start out as novices, or would you/the mentor just take the overall performance into consideration and assign a rank based on that?
Zhorken
groove out!
- Pronoun
- they or she
Would newbies be jumping to pit themselves against experienced refs right off the bat?
I like this idea, though. Getting more refs and doing more to improve the general skill level sounds awesome.
Hiikaru
Run.
- Pronoun
- he
I like the idea of a quiz paired up with reffing a battle - it makes sure the person knows a little of what ey's doing, and helps em to understand what ey'll even need to understand, instead of just jumping right into it.
When would the quizzes be put up and how long would people have to submit their answers? It seems like it should definitely be shorter than a month between quizzes since they're faster to grade and make up and faster to answer, although I guess it wouldn't be nearly as discouraging to fail a quiz and then have to wait for ages again as to fail a mock ref.
Also I like that mentors participating in the battle would feel more inclined to check on the battle and would then have a reward, but, couldn't it be problematic for one of their priorities to be finding a newer battler? It's definitely a problem for newer people to get refs, so I'm happy that it's trying to get fixed, but how would the newer battlers be found and decided on, and also wouldn't it be scary if the only way to get an opponent and a ref was to fight someone really experienced? And then the new battler would have to deal with an unapproved referee, too. I guess it would probably just be people who signed up for it, so they'd be accepting the cons, but still.
Wouldn't it still be okay for the mentor referee to not be one of the battlers, and ey would just have to try extra hard to keep up with the battle (or maybe the person trying to get approved would PM em) and then have a different reward for doing it?
Also I was wondering how people would become mentors - would just any referee be able to mentor someone until and unless they were shown to be doing a bad job of it, or would only advanced or elite referees be able to do it, or would there be a test?
I like the idea that's been said that people trying to be referees would only be considered if their mentor gave a recommendation for them, since then Negrek wouldn't have to look it over at all if it wasn't good enough, so that would be a lot less time consuming for neg and things would go more smoothly hopefully!
I'm glad that this is being worked on, the current system seems really frustrating for lots of people and really time consuming for Negrek and hopefully with a new system we'll have a less dire shortage of refs!
edit: oops Zhorken said the same thing about new battlers versus experienced ones oh well.
When would the quizzes be put up and how long would people have to submit their answers? It seems like it should definitely be shorter than a month between quizzes since they're faster to grade and make up and faster to answer, although I guess it wouldn't be nearly as discouraging to fail a quiz and then have to wait for ages again as to fail a mock ref.
Also I like that mentors participating in the battle would feel more inclined to check on the battle and would then have a reward, but, couldn't it be problematic for one of their priorities to be finding a newer battler? It's definitely a problem for newer people to get refs, so I'm happy that it's trying to get fixed, but how would the newer battlers be found and decided on, and also wouldn't it be scary if the only way to get an opponent and a ref was to fight someone really experienced? And then the new battler would have to deal with an unapproved referee, too. I guess it would probably just be people who signed up for it, so they'd be accepting the cons, but still.
Wouldn't it still be okay for the mentor referee to not be one of the battlers, and ey would just have to try extra hard to keep up with the battle (or maybe the person trying to get approved would PM em) and then have a different reward for doing it?
Also I was wondering how people would become mentors - would just any referee be able to mentor someone until and unless they were shown to be doing a bad job of it, or would only advanced or elite referees be able to do it, or would there be a test?
I like the idea that's been said that people trying to be referees would only be considered if their mentor gave a recommendation for them, since then Negrek wouldn't have to look it over at all if it wasn't good enough, so that would be a lot less time consuming for neg and things would go more smoothly hopefully!
I'm glad that this is being worked on, the current system seems really frustrating for lots of people and really time consuming for Negrek and hopefully with a new system we'll have a less dire shortage of refs!
edit: oops Zhorken said the same thing about new battlers versus experienced ones oh well.
So this got kind of pushed aside for a bit due to preparations for the Battle for Asber, but it's very important, so I'd like to get back into it.
One thing and another, I think that I'm leaning most towards having referees participate in training battles; it seems like the best way to ensure that they're invested in the battle, and would provide a better reward than just more cash.
However, it's true that new players might be more reluctant to take on referees, as advanced and elite referees tend to be some of the better players in the league. In addition, it's certainly true that some tryout referees will produce some pretty rough work at first, so it might not be the best battle experience for a new player.
To the second point, I think it would be better for a newbie to have a less-than-stellar referee experience for their first battle than to have no experience at all; many people join the league and leave again without ever having battled because they get frustrated with waiting for someone to take one of their battles. I think this is something I'd give a shot, and if it turns out I'm totally wrong about it and people hate it, we can go back to the drawing board.
Moving backwards to the first issue, perhaps the referee should play at a handicap, to make the battle more surmountable for a new player? Perhaps the prize should be better than normal to encourage people to try their luck in hopes of getting something good if they do pull off a win? Perhaps the battle itself could be special in some way; the idea is that we want to test the referee under normal battle conditions, of course, so we wouldn't want something too out there, but if there were some way to make the battle feel more special than usual, like it was a kind of rare opportunity, perhaps that would encourage more new players to try it?
All referees would begin as novices under this system. I would prefer not to handle promotions in this way, since once a person has become a referee, it should be simple enough to just look over some of their actual battles to determine how well they're doing.
One thing and another, I think that I'm leaning most towards having referees participate in training battles; it seems like the best way to ensure that they're invested in the battle, and would provide a better reward than just more cash.
However, it's true that new players might be more reluctant to take on referees, as advanced and elite referees tend to be some of the better players in the league. In addition, it's certainly true that some tryout referees will produce some pretty rough work at first, so it might not be the best battle experience for a new player.
To the second point, I think it would be better for a newbie to have a less-than-stellar referee experience for their first battle than to have no experience at all; many people join the league and leave again without ever having battled because they get frustrated with waiting for someone to take one of their battles. I think this is something I'd give a shot, and if it turns out I'm totally wrong about it and people hate it, we can go back to the drawing board.
Moving backwards to the first issue, perhaps the referee should play at a handicap, to make the battle more surmountable for a new player? Perhaps the prize should be better than normal to encourage people to try their luck in hopes of getting something good if they do pull off a win? Perhaps the battle itself could be special in some way; the idea is that we want to test the referee under normal battle conditions, of course, so we wouldn't want something too out there, but if there were some way to make the battle feel more special than usual, like it was a kind of rare opportunity, perhaps that would encourage more new players to try it?
All referees would begin as novices under this system. I would prefer not to handle promotions in this way, since once a person has become a referee, it should be simple enough to just look over some of their actual battles to determine how well they're doing.
Dragon
disaster pigeon
- Pronoun
- she
Exception! but in any case. The handicap sounds good! Maybe the referee can start at 85% health and energy if they're advanced, and 75% each if they're elite or something? The winner could be offered either one extra EXP or $10 more, their choice.
As for making the battle feel special; maybe the referee could choose the stage from a list of pre-created ones? There are a bunch of people who'd be willing to write up stages, it seems.
Mai
Banned
I'd be up for getting punched in the face by someone much more experienced than I am! Not like I usually have too much trouble getting my battles reffed or am new, but still.
Also, rigged battles can be disappointing. :( I mean if you do end up beating someone generally regarded as experienced, then all you have is a "good job! You managed not to screw up something heavily weighed in your favor because people think you aren't good yet". If you lose, well...
EDIT: I might as well mention how horribly tempted I was to put several bee puns in this. The Battle for Asber is amazing~
Also, rigged battles can be disappointing. :( I mean if you do end up beating someone generally regarded as experienced, then all you have is a "good job! You managed not to screw up something heavily weighed in your favor because people think you aren't good yet". If you lose, well...
EDIT: I might as well mention how horribly tempted I was to put several bee puns in this. The Battle for Asber is amazing~
Whirlpool
extemporaneous living
Would these battles be fully-fledged, though (i.e. count toward battle cap, give experience and money, tagged with win/lose)?
Could we have certain (special) Pokémon selected to give the newbie a natural movepool advantage, then give out Rare Candies to /replace/ how much experience would be earned or something?
Could we have certain (special) Pokémon selected to give the newbie a natural movepool advantage, then give out Rare Candies to /replace/ how much experience would be earned or something?
blazheirio889
Banned
- Pronoun
- she
1. Luftballon
Banned
- Pronoun
- it
or, really, just giving rare candies instead of the exp would be a pretty good incentive!
allitersonance
Banned
With how much rare candies are being sold for now, I think they might be too good a prize. (Was that seriously an offer to pay $132 on one, Windyragon? I have two.)
I'm also in agreement with Mai re: rigged battles.
The battles could canonically (we have a canon now, okay) be in the holo-deck you implied existed before everyone ignored that and went all around the world to wreak havoc, which would be conducive to pre-set arenas. It also has the advantage of being approved for tutorial use, but then probably doesn't feel that special that way.
I don't think the prize should be eye-explodingly fantastic, maybe just a free buyable pokémon or something (which is still quite a boon to a new player, I suppose), but I'd consider those the best of the three types of incentives (if I were to choose between them rather than treating it as a checklist). Certainly, if a prize and handicap were to both be given, it would be excessive unless both the prize and handicap were quite minor. If you were to go the handicap route, the tutor might give commands first more often than the new battler (though not necessarily every time), which also means that the referee will more likely get a chance to look at the reffing before the new battler has to make something of it.
Probable elements would probably be that the referee should use unevolved pokémon, who'd benefit more from exp anyway, and a fairly low damage cap to ensure the battle lasts several rounds. Possibly, items and move/body mods are disabled if every ref is going to start as a novice (except maybe evolution/exp+ items?). Could also have a reduced team - the number of pokémon in the party is limited to six, or however many the challenger has, or whatever.
I'm also in agreement with Mai re: rigged battles.
The battles could canonically (we have a canon now, okay) be in the holo-deck you implied existed before everyone ignored that and went all around the world to wreak havoc, which would be conducive to pre-set arenas. It also has the advantage of being approved for tutorial use, but then probably doesn't feel that special that way.
I don't think the prize should be eye-explodingly fantastic, maybe just a free buyable pokémon or something (which is still quite a boon to a new player, I suppose), but I'd consider those the best of the three types of incentives (if I were to choose between them rather than treating it as a checklist). Certainly, if a prize and handicap were to both be given, it would be excessive unless both the prize and handicap were quite minor. If you were to go the handicap route, the tutor might give commands first more often than the new battler (though not necessarily every time), which also means that the referee will more likely get a chance to look at the reffing before the new battler has to make something of it.
Probable elements would probably be that the referee should use unevolved pokémon, who'd benefit more from exp anyway, and a fairly low damage cap to ensure the battle lasts several rounds. Possibly, items and move/body mods are disabled if every ref is going to start as a novice (except maybe evolution/exp+ items?). Could also have a reduced team - the number of pokémon in the party is limited to six, or however many the challenger has, or whatever.