Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

[1. Luftballon]

it's not? it's the god that's redundant, not the always-being.

 

[Pwnemon]

But why is the god outlandish? Just because it's a god?

 

[Aisling]

Mostly because people attribute that god with either being all-powerful and capable of everything and knowing everything (when he would either be one of those or none of those, plus a dick) and/or adding some arbitrary and archaic rules that he supposedly gave us and ruining other peoples' lives using it as an excuse.

There's no real reason to assume there is such a thing when it could just as easily have been anything else. It probably wouldn't be what you would assume from the beginning if someone hadn't explained it to you as a god doing it.

 

[opaltiger]

No, you see. If somebody says that the universe always was, then why is it less outlandish than God?

Because we know the universe exists. We don't know god exists. Occam's Razor! There are two possibilities: god created the universe and god has always existed, or the universe has always existed. Which is redundant?

 

[Tarvos]

But why is the god outlandish? Just because it's a god?

You're postulating something that can create an entire universe out of nowhere, with super duper brainpower, the ability to foresee anything, and generally an entity that is regarded as the most complex thing ever. In addition, if we already think the universe is complex, how hard must it be to assimilate a God? If God created the lot, he has to be a hell of a lot more complex than the universe itself. You don't think that postulating something like that, when we already barely understand where the universe comes from in the first place, is not a teensy tiny bit unrealistic? Because if God exists, he sure has a fuckload more explaining to do than if the universe exists.

Don't you understand? You're allowing yourself a luxury that, frankly, reality just can't cope with.

 

[Pwnemon]

Because we know the universe exists. We don't know god exists. Occam's Razor! There are two possibilities: god created the universe and god has always existed, or the universe has always existed. Which is redundant?

Wait, so your computer generated this message? Because which is redundant; that this message has existed thirteen years, or that I have existed thirteen years and created this message?

 

[Zuu]

Wait, so your computer generated this message? Because which is redundant; that this message has existed thirteen years, or that I have existed thirteen years and created this message?

is this post satirical?

 

[Autumn]

is this post satirical?

... I think it's meant to be proving that opal's post apparently has an inherent flaw.

 

[opaltiger]

Wait, so your computer generated this message? Because which is redundant; that this message has existed thirteen years, or that I have existed thirteen years and created this message?

That is an incorrect application of Occam's Razor. I know your message has not existed for thirteen years, since it was not there yesterday; thus the simplest hypothesis is that you wrote the post in the last day. Equally, I know that your post was not generated by a computer, since that presupposes the existence of a computer which is capable of accessing your account, following the argument in this thread, than forming a vaguely coherent argument against my position. This would have to be a vastly complicated computer, and there is absolutely no reason to assume it exists - just as there is no reason to assume god exists - because I already know of a mechanism capable of producing your post, i.e. your having written it.

Occam's Razor favours the hypothesis which makes the fewest new assumptions. Your hypothesis involves assuming god exists; mine doesn't.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

But why is the god outlandish? Just because it's a god?

Because a god is not logical. Everything that has ever happened happened without a god. If a god existed, it would cause things to happen, as all things that exist do. But nothing has ever happened that can be attributed to a god. Therefore, god does not exist.

In other words.

1. Things exist.
2. Things that exist cause events.
3. Therefore, if a god existed, it would cause events.
4. There is no event that was caused by a god.
5. Therefore, god does not exist.

 

[#1 bro]

You're postulating something that can create an entire universe out of nowhere, with super duper brainpower, the ability to foresee anything, and generally an entity that is regarded as the most complex thing ever. In addition, if we already think the universe is complex, how hard must it be to assimilate a God? If God created the lot, he has to be a hell of a lot more complex than the universe itself. You don't think that postulating something like that, when we already barely understand where the universe comes from in the first place, is not a teensy tiny bit unrealistic? Because if God exists, he sure has a fuckload more explaining to do than if the universe exists.

Don't you understand? You're allowing yourself a luxury that, frankly, reality just can't cope with.

This is kind of tangential (then again, a very large amount of this thread is) but I've always sort of seen a (potential) all-knowing, all-powerful god as something profoundly simple.

 

[Pwnemon]

TES, I lol at your post. No event has ever happened that has been attributed to being caused by a God? Pull your head out of your butt. The greeks, Romans, Jews, Muslims, all don't exist. I forgot.

 

[Espeon]

TES, I lol at your post. No event has ever happened that has been attributed to being caused by a God? Pull your head out of your butt. The greeks, Romans, Jews, Muslims, all don't exist. I forgot.

I think you'll find that Muslims are very much alive and kicking.

TES was presumably speaking in terms of creationism and the origins of the universe. Not in terms of human factions.

Please, open your eyes and read arguements as intended, not in your warped verion of reality.

 

[Zuu]

Espeon he was using retard sarcasm in an attempt to look smart in spite of the fact that he ignored almost all of our posts.

in other news

TES, I lol at your post. No event has ever happened that has been attributed to a God? Pull your head out of your butt. The greeks, Romans, Jews, Muslims, all don't exist. I forgot.

holy shit you are so goddamn retarded I had trouble breathing for a moment. he meant it has not been proven that any event has been caused by a god, the fucking soap opera Greco-Roman mythologies have nothing to do with this.

God has not been proven to exist, therefore I do not believe in him. it's pretty simple!

 

[Tarvos]

This is kind of tangential (then again, a very large amount of this thread is) but I've always sort of seen a (potential) all-knowing, all-powerful god as something profoundly simple.

It can't logically be.

 

[Espeon]

Espeon he was using retard sarcasm in an attempt to look smart in spite of the fact that he ignored almost all of our posts.

It's still fun to pick apart. :)

 

[hopeandjoy]

If God created the universe, what created God? And what created the thing that crated God? Surely God always existing is just as silly as the universe always existing.

 

[Phantom]

Pwnemon-

The Bible is imperfect because humans have been trying to "perfect" it for centuries. Chapters have been removed, even entire Gospels.... For example the Gospel of Judas. (look it up)

In fact certain points contradict each other for example:

There are two versions of the creation story, Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.

First (Genesis 1:1-2:3)

(Humans were created after the other animals.)

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Second Account (Genesis 2:4-25)
Genesis 2:18-19
(Humans were created before the other animals.)

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

First Account (Genesis 1:1-2:3)

Genesis 1:27
(The first man and woman were created simultaneously.)

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Second Account (Genesis 2:4-25)

Genesis 2:18-22
(The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.



Moving to the Gospels and later:


John(the Baptist) was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. Mark 1:14 John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee. John 1:43 & 3:22-24

Can one pray in public? (Matthew 6:5-6) Jesus condemned public prayer. (1 Timothy 2:8) Paul encouraged public prayer.

If we decide to do good works, should those works be seen? Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works." 1 Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that ... they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." This contradicts: Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them…that thine alms may be in secret." Matthew 23:3-5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works ... all their works they do for to be seen of men."

When was Christ crucified? Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour and they crucified him." John 19:14-15 "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour; and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your king…Shall I crucify your king?" John 19:14-15.

Has anyone ascended up to heaven? Elijah went up to heaven: "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2 Kings 2:11 "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man." John 3:13

Is scripture inspired by God? "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." 2 Timothy 3:16 compared to: "But I speak this by permission and not by commandment." 1 Corinthians 7:6 "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord." 1 Corinthians 7:12 "That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord" 2 Corinthians.



The Bible contradicts itself, therefore it is not perfect. Edit something a thousand times and it will never have the same meaning.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

TES, I lol at your post. No event has ever happened that has been attributed to being caused by a God? Pull your head out of your butt. The greeks, Romans, Jews, Muslims, all don't exist. I forgot.

Religions were created by man to explain phenomena he didn't understand.

Aphrodite wasn't born from Uranus's spilled semen when Kronos chopped his balls off with a sickle. She didn't even exist.

Romulus and Remus weren't sired by a she-wolf. Rome was originally a market town that eventually grew into a city because of its strategic placement for trade.

A flaming bush didn't talk to Moses and tell him to take the Israelites out of Egypt. The Torah is a bunch of stories written by several men over several years.

Jesus wasn't immaculately conceived and didn't rise again from the cross. He was probably just the first hippy, who had crazy shit attributed to him by his wacko followers because they wanted to make a perfectly nice and ordinary preacher man into a demigod.

The angel Gabriel didn't come to Mohammed and recite the Qur'an to him. Mohammed wrote it himself.

Nothing that ever happened was caused by a god, therefore a god doesn't exist. The logic is sound. Your ability to accept it is what's at fault.

 

[Pwnemon]

Wait a sec. Perfectly nice preacher man.

Who often called himself the son of God, accepted praise, claimed he could save the world from our sins.

I so wish I could find that CS Lewis quote from "Mere Christianity."