Vegetarianism/Veganism/etc.

[surskitty]

What do ants kill?
I'm not asking this in a 'you can't answer this, hahaha' way, I'm actually asking.

Ants farm aphids; ants are also predators and will kill and eat many other animals. I can't recall offhand if they eat the aphids or simply eat various aphid by-products but either way.

 

[Murkrow]

Unless you defecate in soil afterwards, you're disallowing another apple tree from sprouting, which is the sole reason apple trees create apples; so animals can eat them and then leave the seeds elsewhere to grow.

So effectively you're aborting an apple tree if you don't leave the remnants of the fruit on soil.

1. There are plenty of apple seeds/pips/whatever they're called to go around.
2. Yes, I do plant them occasionally. :P

EDIT: Quick editing is quick D:
Fair enough. Either way the 'it is/isn't natural' argument is retarded due to the fact that everything could probably be considered natural with a bit of reasoning.

Your editing is quick too!
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Ants farm aphids; ants are also predators and will kill and eat many other animals. I can't recall offhand if they eat the aphids or simply eat various aphid by-products but either way.

I don't know what aphids are (although I've heard of them, I think), but fair enough.

*Will Google aphids*

Although this isn't disproving the whole farming thing, ants are drones aren't they, they have to do what the queen wants? It doesn't exactly sound like they have a choice not to eat them.

But who cares; they're ants.

 

[Vyraura]

Going against what your body is biologically designed for is unnatural, in case you need clarification.

Damn this went fast and now it's late and I should go to bed. A few points:

Ruby: Farming animals would be more beneficial to the environment if done in the way I mentioned, was the point. That would be hard but very worth it.

Murkrow: Cows fart and poop when they eat, not wander around to chew their cud. Well they fart then but not so much. Hence the barn thing. And I don't try to 'convert' people unless presenting the raw facts for them to mull over counts as 'converting'. Many people have beliefs based on ignorance.

All i have time for.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

1. There are plenty of apple seeds/pips/whatever they're called to go around.

So the vastness of them justifies the mindless slaughter of our green cousins? D:

And surely if distributed properly, there should be enough meat to go around as well?
Although I'm not especially sure of that point, and it's mainly based on the assumption that if a noticeable amount of people in the west can get morbidly obese, meat, and general food, substances could probably be distributed a little more effectively.

 

[Alexi]

1. There are plenty of apple seeds/pips/whatever they're called to go around.

Plenty of cows, too. :3

EDIT: GameFreakerZero is ninja. D:

 

[Murkrow]

Going against what your body is biologically designed for is unnatural, in case you need clarification.

Origionally I was going to respond to that with.
'We weren't exactly designed for McDonalds either' but then I noticed how stupid that would be considering McDonalds isn't natural anyway.

Just because we were designed so that we can eat meat, does it necessarily we were designed so that we have to eat meat.

Also, we have an appendix, is unnatural that we don't use that?

Murkrow: Cows fart and poop when they eat, not wander around to chew their cud. Well they fart then but not so much. Hence the barn thing.

Yeah, I know that. I just mean you say that farming is usually considered wasteful unless you do what you describes, I was agreeing with you in a way, just by saying that although the farms are wasteful, they're no more wasteful than nature itself.

Pretty bad explanation from me again.

I agree with you on that (mostly). That's what I mean.

So the vastness of them justifies the mindless slaughter of our green cousins? D:

And surely if distributed properly, there should be enough meat to go around as well?
Although I'm not especially sure of that point, and it's mainly based on the assumption that if a noticeable amount of people in the west can get morbidly obese, meat, and general food, substances could probably be distributed a little more effectively.

I think you missed my point.

EDIT:

Plenty of cows, too. :3

EDIT: GameFreakerZero is ninja. D:

Yes, but cows are alive, apple seeds aren't.

Before you say anything about 'aborting' them. Well, tell that to people who use condoms.

 

[Alexi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you, Murkrow, who said you drink milk? That's unnatural; lactose tolerance is only a very recent mutation in the human genes, and that's why a lot of people are intolerant: they don't have the gene.

 

[Murkrow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you, Murkrow, who said you drink milk? That's unnatural; lactose tolerance is only a very recent mutation in the human genes, and that's why a lot of people are intolerant: they don't have the gene.

Which part(s) of my post(s) are you replying to?

I thought it was the other way around. Were evolving further away from cows so lactose intolerance is the newer thing. :/


Anyway:
If you're right: Our genes have developed to tolerate milk, how are genes unnatural?
If I'm right: My genes tolerate milk, how are genes unnatural?

 

[Alexi]

Er, it was either the first post or some other post I saw where you mentioned that.

I thought it was the other way around. Were evolving further away from cows so lactose intolerance is the newer thing. :/

Cows were domesticated 10,000 years ago so it's evolving towards lactose tolerance.

If you're right: Our genes have developed to tolerate milk, how are genes unnatural?

They developed out of necessity. More, it was unnatural. Dairy, that is.

 

[Murkrow]

Er, it was either the first post or some other post I saw where you mentioned that.
Cows were domesticated 10,000 years ago so it's evolving towards lactose tolerance.

Just because they're domesticated doesn't mean they're evolving towards us. I doubt cats etc. are either.

You're probably right, though.

They developed out of necessity. More, it was unnatural. Dairy, that is.

You trying to make me a vegan or something?

Ok, you got me. I can't really think of a good response.
However, given how natural selection works, how exactly would people who are lactose tolerant have an advantage?
It could just me dominant/recessive genes stuff, though.

Then again who was the first person to try cow's milk, did they have a reaction and why did the first person to not have a reaction try it?

 

[Old Catch]

I clicked 'other' because I am an omnivore. I'm not sure if 'meat-eater' meant just that or also included plants and dairy.

Yes, but cows are alive, apple seeds aren't.

Apple seeds are living, right? I mean, they don't just burst into life once they've been planted. So, if you eat an apple, you're eating something that won't have a chance at life because of you. It'd probably live if you buried it in the garden, right? No matter which way you slice it, you're still eating something that once lived, so it's sort of like you're choosing whom to kill and eat based on how much you like / identify with them.

Ants farm aphids; ants are also predators and will kill and eat many other animals. I can't recall offhand if they eat the aphids or simply eat various aphid by-products but either way.

I know they eat the nectar-like stuff the aphids produce. I'm not sure if they also eat aphids, though.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

Also, we have an appendix, is unnatural that we don't use that?

Actually we do use our appendix.
iirc from an episode of QI, it's supposed to help with the reparation of organs or something.

I think you missed my point.

I said effectively what Alexi said afterwards, but with more words and the green cousins bit.

Yes, but cows are alive, apple seeds aren't.

Yes, but there's more to the plant kingdom that we consider edible than just their seeds. Every time you eat a carrot you're eating the entirety of the plant's body.

Also, the 'abortion/ contraception' analogy doesn't work in comparison to humans, as humans have a choice, rather than having their unborn children pilfered by hungry snackers =P

However, given how natural selection works, how exactly would people who are lactose tolerant have an advantage?

I'd take a wild guess and say that it would mean they would be able to survive with less water and a cow than someone who was lactose intolerant with a cow, as the tolerant person could 'share' water with the cow through milk, whilst the intolerant person couldn't.

...
Or something. Natural selection doesn't necessarily apply to domesticated animals anyway, hence this debate for the bad things that come from human interference, although with animals used for food, it's less about look and more about size and whatnot.

 

[Murkrow]

I clicked 'other' because I am an omnivore. I'm not sure if 'meat-eater' meant just that or also included plants and dairy.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
I even put it right at the begging of the post.
Did you even read my first post?

Apple seeds are living, right? I mean, they don't just burst into life once they've been planted. So, if you eat an apple, you're eating something that won't have a chance at life because of you. It'd probably live if you buried it in the garden, right? No matter which way you slice it, you're still eating something that once lived, so it's sort of like you're choosing whom to kill and eat based on how much you like / identify with them.

As I said, I do sometime plant the seeds, and in school they taught us that the whole point of fruits like apples are that animals eat them, leave the uneatable part, and therefore spreading its seeds.

Actually we do use our appendix.
iirc from an episode of QI, it's supposed to help with the reparation of organs or something.

Then how can people survive without them? :/

I said effectively what Alexi said afterwards, but with more words and the green cousins bit.

You said there's plenty of meat to go around, not cows.
My point wasn't that there's no danger of the food running out.
I was caring about the animals' numbers, not the likelihood that the amount of meat would run out.

Yes, but there's more to the plant kingdom that we consider edible than just their seeds. Every time you eat a carrot you're eating the entirety of the plant's body.

Don't carrots (and other vegetables) grow out of each other.
Correct me if I'm wrong, it's 5 AM and I've hod no sleep yet, so I could be talking gibberish.

Also, the 'plants are alive too excuse' is dumb.

Also, the 'abortion/ contraception' analogy doesn't work in comparison to humans, as humans have a choice, rather than having their unborn children pilfered by hungry snackers =P

Yeah, I know

I'd take a wild guess and say that it would mean they would be able to survive with less water and a cow than someone who was lactose intolerant with a cow, as the tolerant person could 'share' water with the cow through milk, whilst the intolerant person couldn't.

...
Or something. Natural selection doesn't necessarily apply to domesticated animals anyway, hence this debate for the bad things that come from human interference, although with animals used for food, it's less about look and more about size and whatnot.

I guess.

 

[Ruby]

What is all this tripe about vegetarianism's being unnatural? It makes no difference whether it is.

 

[EvilCrazyMonkey]

Then how can people survive without them? :/

We must not use our arms or legs either because people can survive without them.

 

[Murkrow]

We must not use our arms or legs either because people can survive without them.

I didn't say we shouldn't.
But if you believe that, then feel free to stop using your arms and legs. :P

 

[GameFreakerZero]

Then how can people survive without them? :/

I'm unsure as to whether that was what it did, and I must check that episode again, but if it's meant to heal damaged organs, then as long as you're not hurtling yourself at sharp, pointy things, you should probably be fine without it.

Or something.

Don't carrots (and other vegetables) grow out of each other.

Huh? They grow out of seeds and bulbs.
No idea what you're getting at here o-o

Also, the 'plants are alive too excuse' is dumb.

The 'animals are alive too' excuse is dumb, therefore.

I don't see how noting that you have to kill something to survive, and that it just depends on what you consider 'ethical' to kill, is either an excuse or dumb.

 

[Murkrow]

Huh? They grow out of seeds and bulbs.
No idea what you're getting at here o-o

As I said, it was 5AM, I was tired. <_<

The 'animals are alive too' excuse is dumb, therefore.

I don't see how noting that you have to kill something to survive, and that it just depends on what you consider 'ethical' to kill, is either an excuse or dumb.

No it's not. Give me evidence that plants feel pain and have feelings, I'll stop eating them.

Also, you have to eat something. I'm pretty sure it's healthier to not eat meat than not eat fruits and vegetables etc.


EDIT: IMO opinion 'plants are alive too' is one of those comebacks that turn into flame/troll wars too easily. Kinda like 'well we saved you asses in WWII' etc.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

No it's not. Give me evidence that plants feel pain and have feelings, I'll stop eating them.

Should it matter? They're living beings and discriminating against them for their lack of a nervous system is not an excuse to think that it's okay to kill them, and then criticize others for harming animals.

Also, considering you were questioning why Vyraura hadn't mentioned anything about "killing - good/bad" in a previous post, even though the method of killing the cow was humane, it seems somewhat hypocritical to say that it's all right to kill plants for their lack of feelings, and yet when a cow can be humanely slaughtered you pull out the "but you're killing an animal D:" argument.

Also, you have to eat something. I'm pretty sure it's healthier to not eat meat than not eat fruits and vegetables etc.

I'm pretty sure it's healthier, and easier, to eat both meat and plants as an omnivore, which is what we are as animals.
And who the hell has said it's healthier to only eat meat?

EDIT: IMO opinion 'plants are alive too' is one of those comebacks that turn into flame/troll wars too easily. Kinda like 'well we saved you asses in WWII' etc.

So what? The fact idiots have used the argument wrongly doesn't exclude it from proper debate, especially as it is a valid point and can show how it's a matter of "what squirms when it dies and what doesn't" when it comes to some peoples' food choices.

 

[Murkrow]

Ok, let me ask you a question.
And answer truthfully.


Do you think it's more ok to kill a plant than an animal?
If you were the one killing them, and you had to, would you rather kill a cow or a carrot?