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Ableist language

Datura

Datura

actually a very nice person
Just wondering, since this is a safe-ish space and all, if ableist language is included in the new guidelines about no bigotry. If not, I propose it be included! I think of TCoD as being relatively *ism-free so it throws me off seeing (for example) "crazy" or "insane" thrown around on a forum that's quite socially conscious!
 
I'm not so sure about excluding crazy and insane, but I definitely want retarded to be included in the rule.
 
Yeah, the r-word is another example, but as far as I've seen it's never really used here! (Thank god.)
 
I agree with Poly. "Crazy" and "Insane" are indeed a part of the common diction, but the r-word I find quite offensive. This is, of course, entirely subjective. Some people may go so far as to say that the whole concept of intelligence is ableist, but I wouldn't go that far.
 
I don't see how it being part of common diction is relevant? All slurs are/were part of common diction until someone(s) took a stand about it. That's basically the entire problem.
 
This is honestly the first time I've heard of crazy and insane as being ableist. This could be me being particularly dense, however, and I'm perfectly happy to correct that.

Perhaps a list of -ist words to avoid would be helpful? Some offensive words are so ingrained into people's vocabularies that they don't really notice. There's some legitimate differences in different types of English, too; for example,
spastic
isn't nearly offensive in American English when compared to British English.
 
Polymetric Sesquialtera said:
I'm not so sure about excluding crazy and insane, but I definitely want retarded to be included in the rule.
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i'm pretty sure it is: mods will probably ask someone to not say 'retarded' and people usually comply so we don't have to infract people for it. if we haven't notice someone say it, report it or send a PM or something, we don't mind.

anyway yep okay sounds good! I know I say things like 'that's crazy!' without actually thinking about it and I'm happy to change that if it makes someone feel better.
 
Datura said:
That's... because it is!
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Sadly the world doesn't treat people of lesser intelligence or whatnot as equals to "normal" people :/ (and I mean sometimes it's necessary, you can't ask people with lesser intelligence or understanding to do things that are beyond their reach but they might be things that "normal" people can do, fact of the matter is that people with lesser intelligence or mental disorders or whatnot are a minority, but this is one minority that can't necessarily be integrated.) But that doesn't mean the words to describe them should be used in the English lexicon - let's see, what are single words to say something is a dumb idea, makes no sense, etc.? Stupid, dumb, lame, retarded, crazy, insane, idiotic, moronic... and where do these words have their origins? I can't think of a single word in popular use to express the things that these words do that *doesn't* have its origin in actual terms used to refer to certain minorities. :/
 
Polymetric Sesquialtera said:
But that doesn't mean the words to describe them should be used in the English lexicon - let's see, what are single words to say something is a dumb idea, makes no sense, etc.? Stupid, dumb, lame, retarded, crazy, insane, idiotic, moronic... and where do these words have their origins? I can't think of a single word in popular use to express the things that these words do that *doesn't* have its origin in actual terms used to refer to certain minorities. :/
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You have lots to pick from! Here's a good list.
 
Vehement Mustelid said:
Some people may go so far as to say that the whole concept of intelligence is ableist, but I wouldn't go that far.
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The thing with the concept of intelligence is that just because some people are faster at learning certain things than other people doesn't mean that people slower at learning that thing can't. It might require a lot more investment of time and effort (and often people explaining it differently, since not all teaching styles work for everyone), but how easily someone learns a skill isn't really that relevant in most contexts. Usually it only matters that you have the skill, or the inclination to acquire it.

There's a certain tendency for people to think that just because it might take them longer to learn (how to do) certain things than it takes other people, it's not worthwhile. Intelligence isn't that useful of a concept the majority of the time.


I'm pretty sure if you say anything incredibly ableist, you'll be called out, yes.
 
I like absurd and ridiculous! New replacement terms for use in everyday conversation. (I'd forgotten about those but they best fit my style.)
(Even doubly important 'cause I'm a music therapy major!)
 
I don't think a full-on ban on using words like "stupid" or "crazy" is very productive. Using them as insults referring to people, of course, is Not Okay, but they're so commonplace in everyday language expressing real, useful sentiments that have nothing to do with disability that I can't possibly see something like "Man, that was a stupid mistake I just made" or "This crazy thing happened to me yesterday" being meaningfully demeaning or hurtful to anyone who is intellectually disabled or mentally ill, the way similar uses of the word "retarded" are. The latter actually invokes disability to derive a derisive meaning; the former don't really.

I say this with the reservation that English isn't my native language and my sense of the connotations could just be off here, and I can't speak for the disabled; if somebody here actually feels demeaned by such nonpersonal usage, I stand corrected.
 
Datura said:
You have lots to pick from! Here's a good list.
Click to expand...

I'd... generally be more offended by some of these slurs? :/

Words like "dumb" and "stupid" are rather watered down insults that don't have as strong a negative connotation in reality. You can't just look at the literal denotative meanings.

Ideally you shouldn't have to use any of these insults, but if you did, comparing someone to a certain part of anatomy isn't really any more acceptable than calling them foolish.
 
also just noting the only one I'm really bothered with is the r word. :|b
 
the only one I don't get is 'lame' because I imagine it referring to like, a horse that has a lame foot and I've never heard 'lame' used that way in reference to an actual person and I don't get how it's offensive I guess! because I always took 'lame' to mean 'uncool' but I'm okay with not saying it.
 
surskitty said:
also just noting the only one I'm really bothered with is the r word. :|b
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Honestly, what's the difference between describing something as "retarded" versus describing that same thing as "crazy"? The connotation might be different because the c-word is so much more diluted, but they both refer to the same thing!

(edit: By "the same thing" I mean mental disabilities!)

edit2: I have an article! Was looking for it for a while. http://disabledfeminists.com/2010/05/17/guest-post-from-rmj-ableist-word-profile-crazy/
 
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But the dilution makes a pretty substantial difference! "Retarded" only gets to its colloquial meaning via invoking the image of someone who is mentally disabled, because it has a very immediate history of being used primarily to refer to the mentally disabled - similar to how the insult "gay" only gets to its colloquial meaning through invoking the idea of homosexuality.

A word like "crazy" has a colloquial meaning that at least by now is so deep-rooted that it generally doesn't go "through" the idea of mental illness (when it's not being used as an insult in reference to people, at least). If you're saying you had a crazy day, nobody pictures anything to do with mental illness; they just picture a strange, hectic, unusual day. If you say you had a crazy idea, they expect something wacky and over-the-top. Those connotations may have gotten attached to the word "crazy" through being associated with the mentally ill, but there's no implication when you read the sentence today that the idea is being compared to the mentally ill. I can't really imagine an actual mentally ill person hearing that and feeling genuinely marginalized by it (but again, if I'm wrong, I stand corrected).
 
You may notice that I've mostly switched to absurd! But I think rather a lot of people with mental illnesses or disabilities don't really give a shit, and in a lot of contexts I'd consider it tacky rather than go 'nerd, stop that'. Bigger fish in the sea, etc, etc. Someone else wants to bother calling them out, fine, whatever, try not to be a massive asshole about it, but I personally am not that likely to be the first one in an area to do so unless the association between mental issues and being wrong is obvious.

There's a difference between calling something absurd crazy and calling someone who holds views you find repugnant crazy, and while I personally try not to do either, the former usage is a lot less tacky.
 
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