BtVS Club

[Keltena]

...still two episodes to go of S5, but I saw Once More, With Feeling at my brother's friend's house (it's the only episode he's seen; I need to get that guy into BtVS), and... OHGODTHEEPIC<3333

I can't choose a favorite song... Under Your Spell is beautiful, I'll Never Tell is hilarious and perfect, Standing is gorgeous and sad, Rest in Peace is awesomely catchy, and Walk Through the Fire is just EPIC. I got slightly spoiled for late S5/early S6, but oh well, it was so worth it. =D

 

[Dannichu]

I knoooooow it's so, so good <3333

Funny story; back when I was at school and at the height of my musical obsession, a friend of mine kept telling me to watch the Buffy musical ep because it was epic and I kept saying "Yeah, but I don't know the characters, blah blah" and oh, what a fool I was.

Except it is much better when you know the characters, but still. I might've gotten into Buffy sooner! :D

My favourite OMWF song changed pretty much daily, but I *think* my favourite is the reprise of Under Your Spell, mostly because Amber and Tony sound amazing together.

In more "amusing people from Buffy on The West Wing" news, the woman in Where The Wild Things Are who was all "the children had unnatural sexual desires! D<" is the secretary to the president X3

 

[Harlequin]

Kari Whalgren voices absolutely loads of characters in all kinds of games and anime. She was Shelke in Dirge of Cerberus, too, and so many times I've watched a random anime series and recognised her voice playing some woman. The PW fandom is in almost universal agreement that if there's a PW anime, she should voice Mia. And Cam Clarke should be Edgey :)

Tara being evil was a huge fan theory for quite a while; it doesn't surprise me, especially since it took ages to get an explanation for her deliberately messing up the demon locator spell in Goodbye Iowa, and the logical explanation was either a) she was a demon, or b) she was working for the bad guys and didn't want the demon found (though that makes less sense, since they were looking for a polgara demon at the time and it wasn't a polgara but actually Adam, who probably wouldn't have shown up). But yeah.

I've seen Willow/Jenny fics before. One-sided ones, but still. I think it's fairly adorable (less weird than Willow having a crush on Giles, which still disturbs me), and it would've been awesome if it'd been mentioned in canon.
I admit your "It just annoys me so much that Willow shows no interest in boys and then suddenly becomes exclusively lesbian." made me giggle, but I know what you meant. It was fairly annoying that her sexuality did a complete, unexplained (Amber being gorgeous notwithstanding) 180, but it wasn't entirely sudden; as early as A New Man (the first time W&T met up after Hush and did the rose levitation spell), Willow lied about where she was to Buffy, so one assumes she realized there were feeling fairly early, but they aren't really addressed at all until Who Are You?, and not explained until New Moon Rising. Plus, as I think Butterfree mentioned before, in late S4/early S5 there are a couple of instances where Willow does mention attraction to guys (Giles in WTWTA, Dracula in Buffy Vs. Dracula), but by mid-S5 these pretty much stop happening and she identifies as a lesbian. It was a 'figuring out' thing, as explained by canon (and quite adorably by Willow in Hell's Bells; "It's a good thing I figured out I was gay, else... you, me... formal clothes..."), but not explained very well at all at the time.

It's not like it was never hinted at, either. Vampire Willow from The Wish, anyone? It could be handwaved by "pfft, vampire!" but Vampire Xander didn't show any homosexual inclinations... Honestly, I think most of us here understand how difficult to work out sexuality is. Give the girl a break! :P

 

[Minish]

I do understand that Willow suddenly being lesbian wasn't totally out-of-the-blue or anything, but it just seems like another case of 'bisexuals don't exist'. When Willow told Buffy she was interested in girls, Buffy never asked whether she was bisexual. Nobody ever mentions bisexuality. Tara and Kennedy are both lesbians, the only other bisexuality hinted at is by vampires, and that doesn't exactly help. :/

I just think it would have made perfect, lovely canonical sense if Willow had been bisexual. It was just a shame to hear that the show had been so revolutionary in having a non-straight character, and it turns out that it follows the 'no bisexuals' cliché.

Willow didn't break up with Oz because she didn't find him sexually attractive anymore, it was because she had fallen in love with someone else. I always thought it was implied that Willow would have stayed with Oz for a long time had he not left.

Eh, I dunno. :/

I understand that this does happen to people -- hell, I was pretty sure I was a lesbian less than a year ago and I'd never even had a crush on a girl, ever. And I know sexuality is fluid and confusing, Harlequin. Which is why I don't like how it was suddenly Straight -> Lesbian, very suddenly, and (to me) with absolutely no warning or even a transition phase whatsoever. We didn't see Willow wonder whether she was gay, or, really, whether she was bisexual, which is what most people do for quite a long time. If alternative sexualities were going to be brought into the show (which is a great thing, of course), then I wish it had been dwelt on just a little bit more for Willow's development...

 

[PK]

Season 8 is WEIRD and makes little to no sense.

 

[Harlequin]

I do understand that Willow suddenly being lesbian wasn't totally out-of-the-blue or anything, but it just seems like another case of 'bisexuals don't exist'. When Willow told Buffy she was interested in girls, Buffy never asked whether she was bisexual. Nobody ever mentions bisexuality. Tara and Kennedy are both lesbians, the only other bisexuality hinted at is by vampires, and that doesn't exactly help. :/

No, yeah, I do get that completely. I think it was a compromise at the time. Lesbianism was already controversial enough, but someone who likes men and women?! I mean yeah, okay, so so far we've only seen lesbians. What about the gays? There are no gays, either. (Well, Andrew likes to think he's not a gay...)

I just think it would have made perfect, lovely canonical sense if Willow had been bisexual. It was just a shame to hear that the show had been so revolutionary in having a non-straight character, and it turns out that it follows the 'no bisexuals' cliché.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's like I said up there, though, with the "wait she likes girls AS WELL AS boys?!" thing. Not that that's a reason not to do it, I just think it probably factored in a bit.

Willow didn't break up with Oz because she didn't find him sexually attractive anymore, it was because she had fallen in love with someone else. I always thought it was implied that Willow would have stayed with Oz for a long time had he not left.

Would she have, though? I know a man who had a wife for like twenty years and then one day he was like "oh shit I'm gay". I mean he probably carried on the charade for a bit but I don't think he'd do it for over twenty years. AFAIK it was a creeping realisation thing, and probably that would have happened to Willow. Bear in mind that Tara was her soulmate, too, so, er, yeah. IDK.

I quite like the "lesbianism as an attempt to show confidence and blah blah blah" theory, though. IDK.

I understand that this does happen to people -- hell, I was pretty sure I was a lesbian less than a year ago and I'd never even had a crush on a girl, ever. And I know sexuality is fluid and confusing, Harlequin. Which is why I don't like how it was suddenly Straight -> Lesbian, very suddenly, and (to me) with absolutely no warning or even a transition phase whatsoever. We didn't see Willow wonder whether she was gay, or, really, whether she was bisexual, which is what most people do for quite a long time. If alternative sexualities were going to be brought into the show (which is a great thing, of course), then I wish it had been dwelt on just a little bit more for Willow's development...

I wasn't being condescending, or anything. Sorry if it came across that way! Perhaps Willow did wonder these things -- just not aloud, or where we could hear her. Which admittedly is pure speculation and utterly meaningless to our current conversation, but I'm guessing she did question herself quite a lot. Willow did get a hell of a lot of development without the "AM I BI" "AM I GAY" "AM I A FISH" issues anyway. (Although I actually kind of dislike Dark Willow, because

Spoiler: season 8 comics

if she didn't even kill Warren, what the FUCK was the point in that? The only redeeming feature of Dark Willow is that she got rid of Tara's killer, and removing that pretty much removes the entire point of the whole thing. But then Dark Willow allowed Willow to realise just how powerful she was and aided in her transition to MOTHER GODDESS WILLOW WHO CAN FLYYYYYYY so idk.

 

[Butterfree]

Willow could for that matter be bi, or have transitioned through a period of being bi even though she ended up going exclusively for girls, but they just felt explicitly bringing bisexuality into it would complicate things (especially with the "will have sex with anything that moves" stereotype associated with it, which could make viewers feel like her relationship with Tara was just a sex thing) so they use the word "lesbian" essentially to describe "is currently in a committed relationship with a girl".

 

[Dannichu]

Butterfree has a point; while there's obviously nothing wrong with bisexuality, much of society, and especially TV, doesn't seem to get it.

Not only back in th' day of Buffy was bisexuality perhaps too much of a touchy subject - the extent to which lesbianism was shown was pioneering (Joss had to fight tooth and nail to keep Willow and Tara's kiss in The Body in the ep, and the Willow/Kennedy sex scene (which I actually couldn't bring myself to watch) was the first lesbian sex scene ever shown on daytime TV), and to show a bisexual character at that time might have been just that one step too contraversial (this show aired on Fox, remember), there are also a whole number of issues associated (very wrongly) with bisexuality that the writers might not have wanted to address. I'm not making excuses for them, though, and I think it'd have been great if they could have shown a bisexual character in a loving, monogamous relationship (actually, showing a lesbian in such a relationship was pretty much unheard of at that time, since lesbians, when shown on '90s TV, were almost exclusively overly sexual, promiscuous and always ended up dead. ...one could argue that two out of three isn't bad ><), especially since those stereotypes are perpetuated in TV today.
I love House, but having the bisexual woman have a series of drugged-up, self-destructive one night stands with anonymous women before settling into a healthy, "normal" relationship with a man just isn't cool.

On a totally different note, who here has seen any of Angel? My housemate got the boxset for Christmas and has been showing me some of her favourite episodes, and I'm really enjoying it. I don't think it's quite as good as Buffy - the characters aren't quites as lovable, it has way more traditional gender roles (the reversal of which was one of my absolute favourite things about Buffy), it has long plot arcs that aren't very interesting (hello, Darla!), takes itself a little too seriously at times and, uh, has no Tara. But it has lots of Joss humour and lots of wackiness and Lorne, who I adore <3

 

[Harlequin]

I have the Angel boxset but I haven't had time to watch it yet. Too busy! Although I have found a guilty pleasure in BBC3's Material Girl.

 

[Butterfree]

On a totally different note, who here has seen any of Angel? My housemate got the boxset for Christmas and has been showing me some of her favourite episodes, and I'm really enjoying it. I don't think it's quite as good as Buffy - the characters aren't quites as lovable, it has way more traditional gender roles (the reversal of which was one of my absolute favourite things about Buffy), it has long plot arcs that aren't very interesting (hello, Darla!), takes itself a little too seriously at times and, uh, has no Tara. But it has lots of Joss humour and lots of wackiness and Lorne, who I adore <3

Shadey and I have been watching Angel, or rather we watched the first few episodes and then Shadey went and watched ahead so now he's somewhere in season five and I'm still in season two. I agree on the characters not being as lovable; on Buffy I adored practically everyone in their own different ways, but I don't really care about Angel, Wesley or Cordelia (though she has gotten a lot more fun since Buffy and can be very amusing), which makes me a lot less interested in it. But on the plus side, it can indeed be very amusing in various ways and though Angel still doesn't really interest me, I do like him somewhat more than in Buffy too.

I'm still looking forward to seeing those episodes you mentioned sometime (the one with everyone losing their recent memories and the one with Angel being turned into a puppet). Shadey's seen them both now and I haven't. D:

I love House, but having the bisexual woman have a series of drugged-up, self-destructive one night stands with anonymous women before settling into a healthy, "normal" relationship with a man just isn't cool.

God, that really bothered me too. ><

 

[Dannichu]

I think it might be that my love for the Scooby Gang was at its highest when there were a lot of them (the Core four, Anya, Tara and even Dawn and Spike), so going from that to Angel where there are only three main characters is a bit of a shock, but I didn't like the first series of Angel too much; maybe, like Buffy in its infancy, it felt a bit like it was getting its feet and trying to figure out what to do with its characters and the plot, especially in terms of characters we already knew, but needed to see differently because they're on a different show now.

I haven't seen all of it, only episodes all over the place, but my feeling is it hits its stride around the end of S2. The S2 finale is an excellent arc spanning three episodes (Joss himself guest-stars as a dancing demon and knowing it's him makes it a million times funnier) and I was talking to my friend who says she's seen it a whole bunch of times, and always forgets what happens at the very end (Hint: S2 of Angel happens in the same timeline as S5 of Buffy, so you can guess what bad news they're told at the very end).

The losing the recent memories ep isn't quite as fun as Tabula Rasa in the fun part (but perhaps preferable because it doesn't have the ANGST), but the way it's told - it's presented to the viewer in the form of Lorne doing standup, which I personally found hilarious - is excellent.

My absolute favourite scene in Angel (one of my favourite scenes in anything, ever, I think) is an episode in which Angel (minor )becomes human for an ep. The scene where he rediscovers how tasty food is is brilliant, but the crowning moment, for me, is when he and Buffy get together to discuss it, leaving Cordy and Doyle to speculate what's going to happen and what the two of them are doing. Cordy's line, "Oh, please! They've got the forbidden love of all time. They've been apart for months. Now he's suddenly human? I'm sure they're down there just having tea and crackers."
And the scene abruptly cuts to Angel pouring Buffy some tea, asking "Would you like some more?"

Makes me nearly cry laughing every time. XD

 

[Butterfree]

(Joss himself guest-stars as a dancing demon and knowing it's him makes it a million times funnier)

A dancing demon! No, wait, something isn't right there...

(Sorry, couldn't resist. x3)

Hee, I loved that scene you spoilered, too. And Angel going all "...FOOOD! OH GOD FOOD I LOVE IT!" It was so delightfully out-of-character-yet-not. What bugs me, though, is that in that episode they concluded Angel could never be human, and yet in the S1 finale they discover his 'reward' is supposed to be becoming human...? @_@ Or was it something specific with the demon-guys they were fighting in that one episode?

 

[Dannichu]

A dancing demon! No, wait, something isn't right there...
(Sorry, couldn't resist. x3)

I have a fun story semi-related to this (in that it's geeky as hell). So the other day, my housemates and I were lounging around after a big meal, all feeling very full, and Alex says something like "I get headaches when I eat too much. Then I lie down until they go away."
So Ruth and I immediately looked up, caught each other's eyes and couldn't stop laughing at our geekiness for about ten minutes, leaving Alex and Zoe totally confused as to what the hell was so funny.

I haven't seen the end of S1 - really, just episodes from all over the place; as I type we're watching an episode (Life of the Party) from S5 - but there's a whole ton of stuff about Angel - his soul, him humanizing, all sorts - that I just don't get and have learned not to question.

 

[Harlequin]

I think it might be that my love for the Scooby Gang was at its highest when there were a lot of them (the Core four, Anya, Tara and even Dawn and Spike), so going from that to Angel where there are only three main characters is a bit of a shock, but I didn't like the first series of Angel too much; maybe, like Buffy in its infancy, it felt a bit like it was getting its feet and trying to figure out what to do with its characters and the plot, especially in terms of characters we already knew, but needed to see differently because they're on a different show now.

I haven't seen all of it, only episodes all over the place, but my feeling is it hits its stride around the end of S2. The S2 finale is an excellent arc spanning three episodes (Joss himself guest-stars as a dancing demon and knowing it's him makes it a million times funnier) and I was talking to my friend who says she's seen it a whole bunch of times, and always forgets what happens at the very end (Hint: S2 of Angel happens in the same timeline as S5 of Buffy, so you can guess what bad news they're told at the very end).

The losing the recent memories ep isn't quite as fun as Tabula Rasa in the fun part (but perhaps preferable because it doesn't have the ANGST), but the way it's told - it's presented to the viewer in the form of Lorne doing standup, which I personally found hilarious - is excellent.

My absolute favourite scene in Angel (one of my favourite scenes in anything, ever, I think) is an episode in which Angel (minor )becomes human for an ep. The scene where he rediscovers how tasty food is is brilliant, but the crowning moment, for me, is when he and Buffy get together to discuss it, leaving Cordy and Doyle to speculate what's going to happen and what the two of them are doing. Cordy's line, "Oh, please! They've got the forbidden love of all time. They've been apart for months. Now he's suddenly human? I'm sure they're down there just having tea and crackers."
And the scene abruptly cuts to Angel pouring Buffy some tea, asking "Would you like some more?"

Makes me nearly cry laughing every time. XD

I'm really enjoying Angel so far. In fact I'm currently watching the episode you spoiler tagged and it was indeed a hilarious moment. I like Angel because it's Buffy but fare more adult in tone, and it pulls it off well.

IDK, maybe I just wanted more Buffy. I like it, though!

... also this episode is so tragic. ; ;

"God I love food." :(:(:(:( poor, poor Angel.

DAMN IT David Boreanaz is so hot with his clothes off and in bed with SMG and and and and.

A dancing demon! No, wait, something isn't right there...

(Sorry, couldn't resist. x3)

Hee, I loved that scene you spoilered, too. And Angel going all "...FOOOD! OH GOD FOOD I LOVE IT!" It was so delightfully out-of-character-yet-not. What bugs me, though, is that in that episode they concluded Angel could never be human, and yet in the S1 finale they discover his 'reward' is supposed to be becoming human...? @_@ Or was it something specific with the demon-guys they were fighting in that one episode?

Spoiler: Angel, season eight comics

Well, I think the point was that Angel couldn't be human at that point because he still had a job to do. Maybe when his job is done he finally gets to become human and live happily ever after with Buffy? who is no longer a Slayer because idk Melaka Fray?

 

[Dannichu]

Spoiler: uh, something. I dunno. Possibly the S8 comics?

Re: Melaka Fray - I haven't read the S8 comics, but Mel's the main character in Joss' other comic, Fray, and she's a slayer from the future- I don't get how (I assume she travels back in time, if she's in the Buffy comics?) she gets to wherever Buffy is, but I don't get why it'd make her not a slayer? I'm very confused o.O

 

[Harlequin]

Spoiler: S8 comics in reply to Danni

Well, Buffy travels through time to Melaka Fray's time period and meets her there. There, the BIG BAD of the S8 comics won and caused all magic and demons to be banished from Earth, thus ending the Slayer line and undoing all of Buffy & co's work in SHARING THE POWER and stuff.

SO: In the future there are no Slayers or demons or anything. Then BAM comes along Melaka Fray who's like the first Slayer in two hundred years or something. And then she meets Buffy in the future. And Buffy does some stuff and then Willow is all "COME BACK BUFFYYYYYY" and drags her back into the past. But yeah. At some point between season eight and Fray, all the Slayers are de-Slayerised.

Spoiler: Angel: After the Fall comics

ACTUALLY I DISCOVERED THAT ANGEL DOES BECOME HUMAN! In the A:AtF comic books he's human after some p. wacky stuff goes on. So. yeah.

 

[Dannichu]

Aaaaaaaaaah, okay. That, uh, makes some kind of sense, I guess. I'm marginally closer to understanding it now, thanks :D

So I have a fun story (well, it amuses me at least); I was reading the Buffy Watcher's Guide Vol 2 (a book about BtVS that covers S3 and 4) and there's an interview with Amber Benson in there, but the interview's done before Hush even happens, so some f it is speculation about Tara's character. The interviewer asks if she thinks Tara's likely to be a good or bad character, and Amber says something like "I kind of hope she's good. My grandparents are born-again Christians and if I'm a good character, they can watch it."

 

[Keltena]

Saw 'Seeing Red'. Just... oh my god.

Such a happy, funny episode ("No, don't stop! I'll go downstairs... and watch TV loudly... in the basement! Keep doing what you're doing!", "I guess he never really loved... uh, hanging out with us.", etc.~), and then right at the end...

God. My brain is dead. My heart might be as well.

(On a different note: what is this i don't even)

 

[Harlequin]

Oh. My. God.

I fucking love Drusilla. She is the best character ever. So deliciously insane! I watched most of the Angel episodes with her last night and I have to say: I have never laughed so hard in my life. Drusilla is hilarious but oh-so-creepy at the same time.

Her lines are amazing. <3 Drusilla.

 

[Dannichu]

Saw 'Seeing Red'. Just... oh my god.

Muuuuuuh, oh, I KNOW DDD: Did you know it was coming?

I just couldn't enjoy or really be at all emtionally invested in the end of S6t after that. I know a lot of people think the next few episodes are some of the best in the whole series, but I just can't bring myself to care. ;~;

Seconding the Dru love. Still not as good as Anya and Tara, but a hilarious character nonetheless.