Does a God of ANY KIND exist?

[Butterfree]

See, now your interpretation of God is really being a dick. "You think you don't need me? Huh? Well, let's see you cope with THIS! You'll come crawling back to me soon enough, begging me for forgiveness! Mwahahaha!"

But that's irrelevant. The point is that you made all of this up; this is not even what any religious texts say, so this is purely your own personal speculation on God's motives. It cannot be proven wrong, because it is inherently undisprovable, as is the general concept of God.

It is very easy to create something inherently undisprovable. It is inherently undisprovable, for instance, that I have an invisible, undetectable magical fairy dragon living under my bed, but that does not make it any worth as a hypothesis about the universe. You dodge all the nonsensical things about God - the seriously strange morality, how on earth something like God could spring into existence, and so on - by making up some more nonsense - him doing it all to show us how much we need him, him being "outside of the universe" and thus not needing an explanation for his existence. You have no actual evidence that could point to any of this; it's all a stilted patchwork of snippets of religious texts, other religious traditions and your own personal ponderings. We don't need to disprove God any more than you need to disprove my magical fairy dragon; it is the person making the claim that has to prove it.

And why is something with purpose and meaning more plausible to you than something that happens automatically? Do you find it more plausible that God deliberately and intelligently pulls objects towards the ground than that all objects pull other objects towards them relative to their mass and the distance to the object, a theory that fits with everything we have ever observed and has great predictive power? If you're trying to state the argument from design ("Life is complex, so it must have been designed by an intelligent mind"), then you're misunderstanding evolution; while mutations happen randomly, the way by which certain mutations prevail, natural selection, is the very opposite of random, and it is what has driven life to become so complex.

As a matter of fact, there are a myriad of things in biology that make no sense when presumed to have been created by an intelligent mind, but do make sense in the knowledge that evolution has no foresight and can't backtrack; for instance, the photosensitive cells in the human retina are "backwards", so that the nerve comes out at the front (potentially obstructing incoming light, which has to get through the entire cell to get to the photosensitive part), and this is the reason we have a blind spot in our vision - because there needs to be a gap with no photocells where all the nerve threads turn back out of the eye. No omnipotent and intelligent being in their right mind would deliberately design it like that, but if an eye started evolving in some animal with the photosensitive cells turned that way, it could become very difficult for them to be turned back around through mutation that would pass the test of natural selection.

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

Time Pysduck do you believe in dinosaurs.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

God has no beginnning. I realise that the concept is beyond human comprehension, but why does that make it wrong?

And someone made this very point a page ago and I said, "hey, why is the magic beardy man magical enough to have existed forever, and not the universe" and they didn't respond so hey.

God allows these thing to happen. God does not cause them, but if he were to stop them he would defete his own argument (humans need God)

... That's what I said. I was saying, isn't God a lovely person for allowing these massacres and monstrosities of humanity to happen.

God DOES NOT get involved in such matters as humanity is at the moment trialing life without God. See the end of the post.

What the hell are you talking about? God created the Earth, thus he botched the job enough for natural disasters to kill thousands (likely more) of people every year, and as he created life he must have created microorganisms, meaning he created every pandemic known to man.

Satan =/= hell.
Satan exists. Hell = Death. Hell as in eternal torture is fiction.

Proof that Satan exists in the first place, please.

Because he gives us free will, and part of that privilige is the responsibility to use it correctly. Hence blaming god for misue of free will is somewhat like blaming Butterfree if people started posting porn on these forums

The paradox is that he is omnipotent, and thus omniscience exists because he has the power to give it to himself; thus free will doesn't exist because omniscience means knowing everything, including the future.

Oh, and that analogy is retarded as Butterfree neither created the members on this forum, nor does she have the capability to be omniscient.

Blind = Lacking an intelligent mind (or similar)
Chance = Happening for no specific reason

Blind Chance = Unplanned occurences for no specific reason

Go learn yourself some science; that is not what evolution is.​

At higher classifications it's to a large degree extrapolation, it is not proven, and my point was the difference of opinion

...
Why do I even bother trying to explain anything to you? Why is anyone even bothering any more? All you do is ignore everything we say.
Eevee and opal have addressed you three times now about the exact same thing.

Read the thread.

Satan (and Adam & Eve) has posed a challenge to God: That humas don't need God. In order to prove his point, God has given humanity the chance to rule itself. This way it can be proven to all creation (including angels) that God is needed. If god were to make life easy for humans, they'd think they don't need God (Although a lot of humans think that anyway) and it would defeat God's argument.

... That's circular logic. If God doesn't help us then we need God, but if he does help us, we don't?

Wait. Are you saying that our very existence is a massive bet between the beardy man in the sky and the big red dude in the ground about whether we can survive without the beardy man in the sky!?

Do you even know what the hell you're saying at this point? Because I'm having some trouble.

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

I like that from what you're saying God is basically like an irresponsible parent who needs validation every few seconds, TP.

 

[Gamma Ray]

i think what we all want to say about religion is "i dunno so i don't really care and do anything with it"

 

[Time Psyduck]

this is the bit you are tripping up on. Evolution is not random chance.

Random has nothing to do with it. When I say it has no specific reason I mean that there was no thought or intelligence applied, it just happened as a result of what was there

See, now your interpretation of God is really being a dick. "You think you don't need me? Huh? Well, let's see you cope with THIS! You'll come crawling back to me soon enough, begging me for forgiveness! Mwahahaha!"

No, God has nothing to do with wat happens either way. He has left humanity to run itself

But that's irrelevant. The point is that you made all of this up; this is not even what any religious texts say, so this is purely your own personal speculation on God's motives. It cannot be proven wrong, because it is inherently undisprovable, as is the general concept of God.

In Genesis Chapter 3 Satan calls God a liar, challenging God.

It is very easy to create something inherently undisprovable. It is inherently undisprovable, for instance, that I have an invisible, undetectable magical fairy dragon living under my bed, but that does not make it any worth as a hypothesis about the universe. You dodge all the nonsensical things about God - the seriously strange morality, how on earth something like God could spring into existence, and so on - by making up some more nonsense - him doing it all to show us how much we need him, him being "outside of the universe" and thus not needing an explanation for his existence. You have no actual evidence that could point to any of this; it's all a stilted patchwork of snippets of religious texts, other religious traditions and your own personal ponderings. We don't need to disprove God any more than you need to disprove my magical fairy dragon; it is the person making the claim that has to prove it.

And why is something with purpose and meaning more plausible to you than something that happens automatically? Do you find it more plausible that God deliberately and intelligently pulls objects towards the ground than that all objects pull other objects towards them relative to their mass and the distance to the object, a theory that fits with everything we have ever observed and has great predictive power? If you're trying to state the argument from design ("Life is complex, so it must have been designed by an intelligent mind"), then you're misunderstanding evolution; while mutations happen randomly, the way by which certain mutations prevail, natural selection, is the very opposite of random, and it is what has driven life to become so complex.

I find it plausable that God creates a system that causes things to be attracted by mass.
I remain unconvinced that at the higher levels evolution has been demonstrated sufficiently.
I clearly think in a different way to you. Does that make me insane?

As a matter of fact, there are a myriad of things in biology that make no sense when presumed to have been created by an intelligent mind, but do make sense in the knowledge that evolution has no foresight and can't backtrack; for instance, the photosensitive cells in the human retina are "backwards", so that the nerve comes out at the front (potentially obstructing incoming light, which has to get through the entire cell to get to the photosensitive part), and this is the reason we have a blind spot in our vision - because there needs to be a gap with no photocells where all the nerve threads turn back out of the eye. No omnipotent and intelligent being in their right mind would deliberately design it like that, but if an eye started evolving in some animal with the photosensitive cells turned that way, it could become very difficult for them to be turned back around through mutation that would pass the test of natural selection.

Why would God design everythig the way it would be logical for humans (especialy when the designs pre-date humanity. This is a major issue with God: people tend to humanize him, which leads to things like this. You make a good point, and I accept things like this seem odd, but also it's important to remember any god is going to see things from a different perspective to humans.

Time Pysduck do you believe in dinosaurs.

Yes. And?

And someone made this very point a page ago and I said, "hey, why is the magic beardy man magical enough to have existed forever, and not the universe" and they didn't respond so hey.

Science has shown the universe to begin. Science has not shown God to begin (for whatever reason; it's not overly significant.) Hence God can have always been around, wheras the universe cannot

... That's what I said. I was saying, isn't God a lovely person for allowing these massacres and monstrosities of humanity to happen.

You think God likes it? Let's suppose you allowed your little brother/sister/cousin/whoever to play on one of you pokemon games for a bit because they told you you were doing it wrong. If they proceded to allow your pokemon to faint, and you told them how to avoid that happening, that would allow them to claim they are better than you (as they can always say they would have done what you told them to anyway). If you allow your pokemon to faint, you may not like it but it would prove your point. You can always restore your pokemon, much in the way that God can restore the dead to life.

What the hell are you talking about? God created the Earth, thus he botched the job enough for natural disasters to kill thousands (likely more) of people every year, and as he created life he must have created microorganisms, meaning he created every pandemic known to man.

God created Adam and Eve to live forever, so they would almost certainly have been able to deal with these microorganisms, making them simply an interesting form of life with no impact on humanity

Proof that Satan exists in the first place, please.

Sorry my mistake. If the bible happens to be true Satan exists

The paradox is that he is omnipotent, and thus omniscience exists because he has the power to give it to himself; thus free will doesn't exist because omniscience means knowing everything, including the future.

He can elect not to know. Just because you have the power to know (although I presume you cannot remember) everything posted on this forum doesn't mean you have to

Oh, and that analogy is retarded as Butterfree neither created the members on this forum, nor does she have the capability to be omniscient.

Butterfree gives us the 'free will' to post what we want (as long as it's relevant). Posting Porn would be a misuse of that 'free will'. Feel free to come up with a better analogy.

... That's circular logic. If God doesn't help us then we need God, but if he does help us, we don't?

If God helps us, people think we don't need him. We do, they just think they don't

Wait. Are you saying that our very existence is a massive bet between the beardy man in the sky and the big red dude in the ground about whether we can survive without the beardy man in the sky!?

No, because if God had decided to not create humanity then it would never have happened. It would be like me saying this forum doesn't need any administrators or moderators and will be fine without ever having them. Something tells me it wouldn't go that well

 

[Gamma Ray]

Random has nothing to do with it. When I say it has no specific reason I mean that there was no thought or intelligence applied, it just happened as a result of what was there

so evolution is basically a joke unless you're sapient

good going there. so how did we go from non-sapient to sapient. did god use a magic spell and imbue us?

No, God has nothing to do with wat happens either way. He has left humanity to run itself

if he leaves humanity to run itself, what is the point of his existence. sit there point and laugh?

In Genesis Chapter 3 Satan calls God a liar, challenging God.

i guess that makes me satan

I find it plausable that God creates a system that causes things to be attracted by mass.

why

I remain unconvinced that at the higher levels evolution has been demonstrated sufficiently.

what higher level macroscopic scale is just an extrapolation of microscopic scale it's the same thing but applied to a bigger population of an entire species.

whoa what a concept

I clearly think in a different way to you. Does that make me insane?

it's not the difference
it's the way you go about it

Why would God design everythig the way it would be logical for humans (especialy when the designs pre-date humanity. This is a major issue with God: people tend to humanize him, which leads to things like this. You make a good point, and I accept things like this seem odd, but also it's important to remember any god is going to see things from a different perspective to humans.

WE'RE TOO STUPID TOO UNDERSTAND GOD

really that is the silliest thing ever

YOU DONT GET GOD WELL HE EXISTS ANYWAY PUH

that seems like a real copout

Yes. And?

evolution kinda rapes the idea of creation up the butt

Science has shown the universe to begin. Science has not shown God to begin (for whatever reason; it's not overly significant.) Hence God can have always been around, wheras the universe cannot

so where did god live before the universe if there was no universe to live in

kind of hard huh

You think God likes it? Let's suppose you allowed your little brother/sister/cousin/whoever to play on one of you pokemon games for a bit because they told you you were doing it wrong. If they proceded to allow your pokemon to faint, and you told them how to avoid that happening, that would allow them to claim they are better than you (as they can always say they would have done what you told them to anyway). If you allow your pokemon to faint, you may not like it but it would prove your point. You can always restore your pokemon, much in the way that God can restore the dead to life.

SO IF GOD DOESNT LIKE IT AND LOVES HUMANS WHY IS HE LETTING THEM KILL EACH OTHER

OH WAIT

GOD IS SO LOVING HE LETS HUMANITY RUN ITSELF AND SIT THERE POINTING AND LAUGHING

I FORGOT

God created Adam and Eve to live forever, so they would almost certainly have been able to deal with these microorganisms, making them simply an interesting form of life with no impact on humanity

you cannot physically live forever

Sorry my mistake. If the bible happens to be true Satan exists

so prove to me the bible is true

He can elect not to know. Just because you have the power to know (although I presume you cannot remember) everything posted on this forum doesn't mean you have to

oh thats convenient. so if a natural disaster occurs and god doesn't do anything about it he can just say he elected not to know.

Butterfree gives us the 'free will' to post what we want (as long as it's relevant). Posting Porn would be a misuse of that 'free will'. Feel free to come up with a better analogy.

If God helps us, people think we don't need him. We do, they just think they don't

how is god actually helping humanity

clearly we are going to the rats and god is helping. if your idea of god helping people is like America I don't know but I'd rather God stay out of my business

but god isn't actually helping because he left humanity to run itself I forgot again look I am stupid

No, because if God had decided to not create humanity then it would never have happened. It would be like me saying this forum doesn't need any administrators or moderators and will be fine without ever having them. Something tells me it wouldn't go that well

errr

even during anarchy communities start existing with leaders. you dont need god to form a society or a forum wtf

 

[opaltiger]

Science has shown the universe to begin.

No, science has shown the universe to expand. Before the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe still existed. At no point did it spring into being.

Random has nothing to do with it. When I say it has no specific reason I mean that there was no thought or intelligence applied, it just happened as a result of what was there

You say there is no thought or intelligence; this is true. It follows that any chance event, any point at which one thing or another may happen, is random. Besides, you're missing the point: evolution does not rely on chance. Calling it chance is about as wildly inaccurate as it is possible to get.

 

[Time Psyduck]

if he leaves humanity to run itself, what is the point of his existence. sit there point and laugh?

Satan says humans don't need God. God says prove it. God doesn't get involved, allowing satan to prove it. God would have been involved if it wasn't for satan.

why

I find it logical that laws had a law maker.

what higher level macroscopic scale is just an extrapolation of microscopic scale it's the same thing but applied to a bigger population of an entire species.

whoa what a concept

No. evolution at the level of say class is an extrapolation of the same thing at species level. Other than similar DNA and the odd fossil with a bit of something vaugly similar to something from another class I havent seen a lot of evidence for it

it's not the difference
it's the way you go about it

Oh dear the curse of Time Psyduck strikes again
I have problems in communication and Social Interaction
I will therefore appologise

WE'RE TOO STUPID TOO UNDERSTAND GOD

really that is the silliest thing ever

YOU DONT GET GOD WELL HE EXISTS ANYWAY PUH

that seems like a real copout

No I think it's worth noting that if God exists he may well think differently to us and so what may not be logical for us may be for him.

so where did god live before the universe if there was no universe to live in

kind of hard huh

God is a spirit creature. Who says he needs a physical space in which to exist. Plus there's the whole 'what's outside the universe' thing which I suspect is rather off-topic

you cannot physically live forever

You have an omnipotent friend. I think they may be able to do something about that

errr

even during anarchy communities start existing with leaders. you dont need god to form a society or a forum wtf

But if there are no administrators or moderators, any other leader would not have real power, for example they couldn't get rid of any spam that was posted, nor could they deal with any issuse such as the forum crashing.

No, science has shown the universe to expand. Before the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe still existed. At no point did it spring into being.

Maybe it has always existed then. The bible doesn't actually say any differently. It says God created the Heavens (Stars, etc.) and the Earth. Nowhere does it actually say he created the matter.

You say there is no thought or intelligence; this is true. It follows that any chance event, any point at which one thing or another may happen, is random. Besides, you're missing the point: evolution does not rely on chance. Calling it chance is about as wildly inaccurate as it is possible to get.

I sense I may have used the wrong words here

 

[GameFreakerZero]

No, God has nothing to do with wat happens either way. He has left humanity to run itself

Then why bother even acknowledging his existence, if he's simply buggered off to leave us be?

I remain unconvinced that at the higher levels evolution has been demonstrated sufficiently.
I clearly think in a different way to you. Does that make me insane?

No, but if you aren't going to accept the amount of evidence that we've been giving you, and others, throughout the entirety of this, and the homosexuality thread, then you are the one who is truly blind.

Why would God design everythig the way it would be logical for humans (especialy when the designs pre-date humanity. This is a major issue with God: people tend to humanize him, which leads to things like this. You make a good point, and I accept things like this seem odd, but also it's important to remember any god is going to see things from a different perspective to humans.

Dude, that isn't the point. This wasn't the cue for another 'God moves in mysterious ways' argument, this was a cue for another one of your reasons why a 'perfect' God managed to cock up and make a flawed and imperfect design.

Yes. And?

And what did they ever do to God to invoke his wrath, exactly?
Also, what the hell happened in the 65,000,000 year gap between their extinction and now, considering human societies only begun to spring up... about 5,000 years ago if I recall.

Science has shown the universe to begin. Science has not shown God to begin (for whatever reason; it's not overly significant.) Hence God can have always been around, wheras the universe cannot

[Insert Learn Yourself Some Science reply here]
And why wouldn't the 'beginning of the universe' from a scientific perspective invoke a 'LOL JUST A THEORY' response too?

Also, science has not shown God to even exist, so how the hell are they supposed to have shown him to 'begin'!?

Which raises another question! What was he doing for the ∞ years before our creation?

You think God likes it? Let's suppose you allowed your little brother/sister/cousin/whoever to play on one of you pokemon games for a bit because they told you you were doing it wrong. If they proceded to allow your pokemon to faint, and you told them how to avoid that happening, that would allow them to claim they are better than you (as they can always say they would have done what you told them to anyway). If you allow your pokemon to faint, you may not like it but it would prove your point. You can always restore your pokemon, much in the way that God can restore the dead to life.

Spoiler: death

You can't be brought back from the dead, sorry.

God created Adam and Eve to live forever, so they would almost certainly have been able to deal with these microorganisms, making them simply an interesting form of life with no impact on humanity

Spoiler: life

You can't live forever.

Also, why would he have made them in the first place? We can't see them; they're microscopic, and they're single celled organisms, meaning they're not as interesting as, say, a parasite that lives by drilling through your skin or something.

Oh, please tell me why God made the tapeworm.

He can elect not to know. Just because you have the power to know (although I presume you cannot remember) everything posted on this forum doesn't mean you have to

That wasn't the point. It doesn't matter whether or not he can choose not to know, the fact that he can give himself omniscience in the first place dictates that there must be fate due to the fact it can exist.

Unless it's something where free will and omniscience cancel each other out or something.

If God helps us, people think we don't need him. We do, they just think they don't

... What?
I'm still confused, could you explain this in a way that isn't contradictory of itself.

No, because if God had decided to not create humanity then it would never have happened. It would be like me saying this forum doesn't need any administrators or moderators and will be fine without ever having them. Something tells me it wouldn't go that well

I'd consider administrators the government and the moderators the public services in that regard, and without them it'd be an anarchy.

Meanwhile, a God is unnecessary and the universe would work fine without him, as science continues to prove.

Oh, and the fact magic beardy man took up underground red man's challenge in the first place is retarded.

EDIT: DON'T NINJA POST ME.

No. evolution at the level of say class is an extrapolation of the same thing at species level. Other than similar DNA and the odd fossil with a bit of something vaugly similar to something from another class I havent seen a lot of evidence for it

Um, what about the unnatural selection of domesticated animals, which I've mentioned before? As in, we choose to have chickens who lay more eggs, and only let that one breed, then its offspring will lay more eggs; or we breed larger chickens for more meat.
Keep continuing the larger chickens thing for a few thousand years until we get them bigger than pianos or something.

This was the only thing worth replying to :/

 

[Eevee]

Right well this is one big stupid circle-jerk so let's just focus on the bits Time Psyduck has fundamentally wrong.

He invented reality and physics, therefore why would he be limited by them?

If God is real, then he could not have been bound by reality; he is part of it.

And the question really is: where did God get his ability to create everything, and how does it work? This is the giant gaping hole in the very notion of a deity. You are inventing the most magnificent power to have ever been proposed, and yet offer absolutely no explanation for how it works or where it came from.

You CANNOT brush this off. Explaining this is far more pressing than finding a perfect fossil record to sate you. What you believe or how you think is irrelevant; this is how rationality works. You must answer this.

Once again, I question how casually you can simply insist that some being lies outside of every law we have, and yet reject something that very carefully follows every law we have.

Why is blind chance more plausable than innelligence?

Because:
1. It's not blind chance, any more than water evaporating is blind chance. (The individual molecules that evaporate are arbitrary and essentially random, but the upshot is that they will all evaporate at room temperature eventually.)
2. You cannot even demonstrate that this intelligence exists. You demand more and more evidence of evolution, but you can neither explain nor prove the existence of this deity you have, which you invented solely to fill a gap you don't think anything else fills. Evolution may not be perfect, and may not have complete proof, but it has something. The notion of a god has NOTHING besides the occasional odd event people point to and go "I can't explain this, therefore God did it". You know, odd events like lightning and the sun going across the sky.

To some people, God is more plausable than scientific speculation.

Wow. You, a theist, call evolution speculation? This is the utmost in hypocrisy.

To others, he is not. It's a difference of veiwpoint, and without absolute proof either way no-one can be knowingly right or wrong

This is nonsense. There is unfathomably more evidence for evolution than creationism. This makes evolution far, far more correct.

It's not a difference of viewpoint; it's a rejection of rationality. You have yet to provide even a scrap of evidence for the existence of a god, yet you and others continually clamor for more evidence of evolution, without either explaining what you would like to see or reading what's already out there. Please stop with this absurd double standard. Either form a real argument that doesn't revolve entirely around complaining about the opposing viewpoint (protip: "you are wrong" does not in any way imply "I am right") or leave.

 

[opaltiger]

I sense I may have used the wrong words here

Can you, for once, stop hiding behind excuses and accept that you're wrong?

 

[Time Psyduck]

Right well this is one big stupid circle-jerk so let's just focus on the bits Time Psyduck has fundamentally wrong.

So if I answer these I should cover all the points, right?

If God is real, then he could not have been bound by reality; he is part of it.

And the question really is: where did God get his ability to create everything, and how does it work? This is the giant gaping hole in the very notion of a deity. You are inventing the most magnificent power to have ever been proposed, and yet offer absolutely no explanation for how it works or where it came from.

You CANNOT brush this off. Explaining this is far more pressing than finding a perfect fossil record to sate you. What you believe or how you think is irrelevant; this is how rationality works. You must answer this.

Once again, I question how casually you can simply insist that some being lies outside of every law we have, and yet reject something that very carefully follows every law we have.

God created reality as humans know it. God may well be bound by his own reality that we are unaware of.

God is omnipotent, but he acts through his 'holy spirit'. Humanity clearly doesn't know how this works, but it isn't too far to say the 'holy spirit' would be a toolkit or machinery (or whatever the equivalent in 'Godworld' is.)

Treating both creation and evolution as fictional (to put them both on a level playing field) I see why evolution seems more logical - it was designed that way. Creation is about what we don't know, and a) it can seem fanciful and b) it can be scary. Evolution can only result in depression

Because:
1. It's not blind chance, any more than water evaporating is blind chance. (The individual molecules that evaporate are arbitrary and essentially random, but the upshot is that they will all evaporate at room temperature eventually.)
2. You cannot even demonstrate that this intelligence exists. You demand more and more evidence of evolution, but you can neither explain nor prove the existence of this deity you have, which you invented solely to fill a gap you don't think anything else fills. Evolution may not be perfect, and may not have complete proof, but it has something. The notion of a god has NOTHING besides the occasional odd event people point to and go "I can't explain this, therefore God did it". You know, odd events like lightning and the sun going across the sky.

1) Evolution relies on chance. It relies on the chance mutation being benificial for the organim in an environment. The organism may not evolve randomly but what it evolves into has a random element to it.
2) I can demonstrate that this intelligence might exist, but you will just say 'that was evolution'

Wow. You, a theist, call evolution speculation? This is the utmost in hypocrisy.

Again, I call the parts where a lot of the evidence seems to rely on extrapolating what is shown at another level speculation, not evolution as a whole. And it's not hypocracy unless I say I am not speculating, which I haven't (intentionally)

This is nonsense. There is unfathomably more evidence for evolution than creationism. This makes evolution far, far more correct.

I like the word 'more.' It seems to fit. There's still no absolute proof, however much evidence you have. If you want absolute proof, get a a time machine. Even a large amount of evidence doesn't make something correct, however.

It's not a difference of viewpoint; it's a rejection of rationality. You have yet to provide even a scrap of evidence for the existence of a god, yet you and others continually clamor for more evidence of evolution, without either explaining what you would like to see or reading what's already out there. Please stop with this absurd double standard. Either form a real argument that doesn't revolve entirely around complaining about the opposing viewpoint (protip: "you are wrong" does not in any way imply "I am right") or leave.

I think it comes down to how evolution is within human understanding but God is beyond it - the concept of this not being everything seems 'wrong' to some people, wheras others feel there must be something else. Is it irrational to think this isn't everything there is? There appears to be design in living things. Is it so impossible that there might be a designer.

You will notice that I talked about the possibility of a creator. This is key. It's important to consider this because not all creators are the same, as they have a number of differences.

Of course evolution and creation may not be incompatable at all. If God created the first cell, which isn't (acording to evolutionists) part of evolution, and then 'steered' the evolution of life (remember this is the guy who invented the physical universe), there is no conflict with science and the bible.

I'll leave anyway. All I did was provide some answers (bas as they may have been) to some questions, but clearly I am incapable of being such a skilled debator as youself.

Can you, for once, stop hiding behind excuses and accept that you're wrong?

You don't know me. You don't know what I'm like. You don't know what I mean. I spent half the homosexuality thread staring at inncorrect assumptions about me.

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

You don't know me. You don't know what I'm like. You don't know what I mean. I spent half the homosexuality thread staring at inncorrect assumptions about me.

What, a bigot? You didn't help your case much, especially since you fled instead of staying to talk about it, liek you're doing now.

Still want my slavery justification.

 

[Icalasari]

Also, you forget that a few posts ago I already stated reasons why God is a complete and utter dick, mainly for allowing the Earth to be imperfect enough for earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, etc. to occur on a regular basis, and also for, logically, creating every hideous pandemic that has threatened humanity since the beginning of time.

God DOES NOT get involved in such matters as humanity is at the moment trialing life without God. See the end of the post.

This has been bugging me. He said God made those things imperfect when he first made them/created organisms when he first created the world, with said organisms causing pandemics, not saying, "Wow, God is causing natural disasters and pandemics right now"

So how, HOW does a deity not getting involved now excuse him from making those things in the first place/not fixing these mistakes?

>.> Sorry if my words don't make sense. My brain tends to malfunction after reading several pages of pure crap being spewed out

Also:

Also, didn't you say you didn't believe in hell? Why're you bringing the big red guy in the ground into this?

Satan is a fallen angel, not some sort of bat-winged, demon-tailed red guy who lives underground. Just wanted to correct your knowledge of Judeo-Christian mythology



And it has been awhile since I posted in here, and since I don't feel like forcing my brain to melt to see if my views have significantly changed or not (alright, I know I made this thread, but yeah, I remember posting after the initial post), well, here are my current beliefs:

I believe that a deity of some sort exists. However, it is nowhere NEAR the kind of deity described in religion. It can appear to be a deity to us, but it isn't omnipotent, omniscient, or omniwhatthefuckever

Example: It might be able to create matter. However, it does this by changing energy into matter (I SWEAR somebody, maybe even in this thread, posted a link or something that shows a theory that energy can be turned into matter, and vice-versa. It was when everybody was debating in a thread about Noah's Ark)

Heck, I believe this 'deity' may even be able to manipulate reality to an extent, by manipulating sub-atomic particles (although they likely would not be able to do that for long, as that would likely require MASSIVE amounts of energy). As such, they could do something like, say, create the ILLUSION of gravity suddenly disappearing by removing a large portion of sub-atomic particles out of the Earth, for example

 

[opaltiger]

Evolution can only result in depression

Sure, tell that to all the evolutionary biologists.

1) Evolution relies on chance. It relies on the chance mutation being benificial for the organim in an environment. The organism may not evolve randomly but what it evolves into has a random element to it.

Wrong. If there are no beneficial mutations in a particular organisms, then the individuals without mutations will pass on their genes. Evolution is not about forward progression, it is about adaptation, and if there is no better alternative then the organism will, for the time being, stay the same. The only thing here that evolution relies on is the presence of some genetic difference; the difference need not be beneficiary.

 

[nastypass]

And the question really is: where did God get his ability to create everything, and how does it work?

Infinite MP is a bitch. :'[

 

[Time Psyduck]

Still want my slavery justification.

You want this? Maybe you should have said that rather than mentioning about how slavery is relevent to a debate about the existance of God. I don't see anything between the lines very often.

Anyway: Permit =/= condone. I have legal permission to drink as much alcohol as I want. This does not mean the government of my country condones binge drinking.
Also you are supposed to look after your slaves.

This has been bugging me. He said God made those things imperfect when he first made them/created organisms when he first created the world, with said organisms causing pandemics, not saying, "Wow, God is causing natural disasters and pandemics right now"

So how, HOW does a deity not getting involved now excuse him from making those things in the first place/not fixing these mistakes?

God created humans perfect for their purpose: Intelligent, free willed creature who served god willingly. Thing have gone wrong since then but if Adam and Eve hadn't gone down the path of rebellion humanity wouldn't have become imperfect. The problems are a result of Adam and Eve rejecting God. So, in short: It's our fault.

Satan is a fallen angel, not some sort of bat-winged, demon-tailed red guy who lives underground. Just wanted to correct your knowledge of Judeo-Christian mythology

And it has been awhile since I posted in here, and since I don't feel like forcing my brain to melt to see if my views have significantly changed or not (alright, I know I made this thread, but yeah, I remember posting after the initial post), well, here are my current beliefs:

I believe that a deity of some sort exists. However, it is nowhere NEAR the kind of deity described in religion. It can appear to be a deity to us, but it isn't omnipotent, omniscient, or omniwhatthefuckever

Example: It might be able to create matter. However, it does this by changing energy into matter (I SWEAR somebody, maybe even in this thread, posted a link or something that shows a theory that energy can be turned into matter, and vice-versa. It was when everybody was debating in a thread about Noah's Ark)

Heck, I believe this 'deity' may even be able to manipulate reality to an extent, by manipulating sub-atomic particles (although they likely would not be able to do that for long, as that would likely require MASSIVE amounts of energy). As such, they could do something like, say, create the ILLUSION of gravity suddenly disappearing by removing a large portion of sub-atomic particles out of the Earth, for example

See all this makes sense, and doesn't contradict evolution at all. I actually think something similar to this, only in my version God exist in a different reality and invented this one. Also my God is tied to the bible (but not mainstream christianity, since they just made up a load of stuff)

Sure, tell that to all the evolutionary biologists.

Can, not will. I say that evolution can only cause depression as opposed to other negative emotions such as fear. To be honest I didn't count positive emotions as they're basicly the same for both 'theories'

Wrong. If there are no beneficial mutations in a particular organisms, then the individuals without mutations will pass on their genes. Evolution is not about forward progression, it is about adaptation, and if there is no better alternative then the organism will, for the time being, stay the same. The only thing here that evolution relies on is the presence of some genetic difference; the difference need not be beneficiary.

If the organism stays the same, then it isn't evolving. It may evolve at another stage but for the time being it will not evolve. The real point is probably that when evolution of species takes place is random or something.

Also how does something which is almost universally harmful provide the basis of how life evolved? I don't care how many mutations occured; saying that enough beneficial ones happened for evolution is a cop-out.

 

[Icalasari]

God created humans perfect for their purpose: Intelligent, free willed creature who served god willingly. Thing have gone wrong since then but if Adam and Eve hadn't gone down the path of rebellion humanity wouldn't have become imperfect. The problems are a result of Adam and Eve rejecting God. So, in short: It's our fault.

Ok, I will give you that superbugs, viruses that are immune to conventional medicine, is our fault, but how the hell are we to blame for earthquakes? Tornadoes? Hurricanes? Volcanoes?

See all this makes sense, and doesn't contradict evolution at all. I actually think something similar to this, only in my version God exist in a different reality and invented this one. Also my God is tied to the bible (but not mainstream christianity, since they just made up a load of stuff)

^^

EDIT:

You clearly don't understand how evolution works, do you? Evolution does not happen so that a fish suddenly loses its gills or a bird its winds. Evolution happens so that an animal is better adapted to the environment.

Erm, actually, not all the time. A fish MAY lose its gills due to a genetic defect. It won't survive long enough to reproduce, however. Same with a bird and wings

 

[Autumn]

Erm, actually, not all the time. A fish MAY lose its gills due to a genetic defect. It won't survive long enough to reproduce, however. Same with a bird and wings

Yeah, I know, I just realized that (and deleted my post xD). My point was just that it doesn't necessarily happen randomly and doesn't contribute anything to the evolution of its species. :x

(of course I might be wrong but meh)