Does a God of ANY KIND exist?

[Zeph]

Why is it so hard to accept that evolution doesn't just happen overnight?

Exactly. Some people seem to find evolution impossible because they think it means that a frog magically turns into a lion all of a sudden.

I've probably posted here before but oh well, 'twas probably pages ago. I don't really believe in any God. The idea just seems.. odd. A few years ago I used to keep trying to convince myself he/she/it does exist because otherwise I'd go to hell or something, but I couldn't bring myself to believe it.

As for evolution, I see no other remotely plausible theories about (Other than "This magic dude in the sky did it"), and in my opinion it makes perfect sense.

 

[Eevee]

Why do I believe it? Because it makes so much sense to me.

No, it doesn't. It just raises questions that are so huge you feel comfortable ignoring them. Evolution is complex, and creationism appears deceptively simple because you can just say "oh well God can do anything" without really considering what that means.

If evolution were completely true, then I wanna know why we as humans haven't evoloved yet. There's a flaw in science right there.

This is akin to saying "If chemistry were completely true, then I wanna know why Antarctica hasn't melted yet. That's a flaw in science right there."

Please don't use Picard in an X-Men movie as a scientific source. Evolution is about adaptation, not spontaneously changing into something else just for the hell of it.

Evolution also works by natural selection, something our species strives very hard to counteract. We do whatever we can to keep everyone alive as long as possible.

Besides, for all you know, we are evolving.

I also blieve in God because his values and mine fit well together, somewhat.

"God doesn't like murder, therefore he exists"?

What deities are there that you don't agree with? I'm pretty sure the tooth fairy agrees with a lot of the Ten Commandments too.

 

[Butterfree]

Just to add on the subject of how evolution "at the class/phylum/kingdom level" can happen: see, at the time it happens, it isn't at a special "level" that constitutes any sort of major leap. When plants first diverged from other organisms, for instance, they were identical except that the single-celled organism that would later become the ancestor of plants had devoured a photosynthesizing bacterium and gotten into a symbiotic relationship with it; later, that bacterium would become the ancestor of what we now know as chloroplasts, and they would live independent lives and reproduce inside all plant cells, which would also change in further ways.

When what we today consider to be a new class, phylum or kingdom originates, it is just another new species, no more different from its closest relative species than any average modern species is from its closest relative. It is further evolution, taking the descendants of those two species in separate directions, that makes them seem so far apart, in our hindsight.

And Jason-Kun: all species are continuously evolving at all times; it just so happens that expecting to actually see notable change happen within any of recorded human history is quite literally akin to concluding, after measuring your height with a few minutes or seconds in between, that people don't grow with age because you haven't grown any yet.

 

[opaltiger]

Also I'm not sure what you would call the progression of modern man if not evolution. A hundred thousand years ago we were mostly likely incapable of speaking as we do now. See? Evolution!

 

[Harlequin]

Uhh, maybe because we're the furthest in the evolution chain so far?

what

evolution doesn't work like that

there is no "progression" to any particular life-form, all evolution does is adapt an organism to its environment. it's not trying to make humans - it just makes animals that are adapted perfectly to where they live.

 

[opaltiger]

Evolution just as creationism are both theories and without any evidence to your theory you can't throw it around as fact.

Listen closely, I'm only going to say this once.

Scientific theories are hypotheses which have been extensively tested, are supported by all the facts, and are accepted by the scientific community to be true. Theories in every day speech refer to an untested hypothesis, which is in fact quite the opposite.

Darwinism is a scientific theory. Creationism is not.

See also: the theory of gravity. Are you going to start doubting it because it's just a theory?

And I don't see any questions and exsitence of God would raise other than the question of how they came to be, with the simple answering being that they always existed.

But if God didn't exist, then you wouldn't have to deal with him "just existing", either. How could the existence of an all-powerful being possibly be more simple than the non-existence of such?

You talk about evolution as if it were true, but you seem to keep forgetting it is just a theory. Unless you can site any evidence that your claims are true, stop spewing stuff just for the sake of an arguement. Common sense says that if creatures evovled over time, we should have by now.

Do you have any idea how evolution works? We have evolved. Thousands of years ago, humans did not have the capacity of speech that we do now. Thousands of years before that, no opposable thumbs. Now we have these.

See above for the "just a theory" argument and holy christ I propose we start banning people who say that.

On another note, I suggest you read through talkorigin's section on evolution. It might prove enlightening.

Some links to start. Particularly the first and last.

edit:

An example of my theory would be a chuwawa (nor sure I spelt that right) evolving into a Labrador Retriever or some other species of dog over time.

Uh. All dogs are the same species.

 

[Butterfree]

How about you read my post before restating what I already countered in it, Jason-Kun?

And your personal beliefs have no place in a debate. You can only debate if you've got something intelligent to back up what you say. There is abundant evidence for evolution everywhere; deciding "It makes more sense to me if God did it" is called an argument from personal incredulity and is a logical fallacy, something that could be kept as far away from any sort of debate as possible.

 

[EvilCrazyMonkey]

Okay just because you believe the world to be billions of years old doesn't mean anything. Evolution just as creationism are both theories and without any evidence to your theory you can't throw it around as fact.

re: just a theory (sorry opal i must steal your argument)
Gravity is just a theory. Therefore, it has not been proven to exist. Furthermore, since gravity likely doesn't exist, I will not fall to the ground when I jump off of the Empire State Building, and survive, likely making me famous.
Let's give this a test run.
...
Aw, crap.

I said it made since to me. You can not tell me how to think or how to feel on a matter, because you lack the right to do so. And I don't see any questions and exsitence of God would raise other than the question of how they came to be, with the simple answering being that they always existed.

It doesn't make sense to the rest of us; explain your logic.
The ability to violate every known law and/or reality that we cling to raises a crapton of questions.
And if you can say "lol He always existed stoopid" then I have the full right to use the argument "lol the universe always existed stoopid" and be just as correct. This is the problem with creationist arguments; they are simple skeleton arguments and can be used against the original arguer.

I never said things evolved for the heck of it, stop taking whatever I say out of context. You talk about evolution as if it were true, but you seem to keep forgetting it is just a theory. Unless you can site any evidence that your claims are true, stop spewing stuff just for the sake of an arguement. Common sense says that if creatures evovled over time, we should have by now.

Um. Evolution takes way to long to be studied in a lab normally. In the special case of bacteria and such, the cells able to survive vaccines, treatment, medicine and whatnot have a greater chance of living, and therefore passing their immunity on, while the susceptible ones will be killed, and their inability to resist treatment will not be passed on, making a higher percent of the species immune to the treatment, effectively increasing the species' chance of survival, which is the whole point of evolution.
That has been studied in labs, by the way, and is the reason vaccines are rotated every year.

Look I was asked a question on my beliefs and I was stating why I believe in God. I never once stated that my beliefs were fact. Learn to read before you say anything, or you'll just make yourself look like an ass. As for the question presented in your statement, I don't beileve in ANY deities other than the Christian God.

Well my imaginary friend has similar morals to me.
Plus, if you don't even believe that your own beliefs are fact, then a) how are they your beliefs, and b) (which ignores a) why do you believe them?
And it would make sense to believe in only the Christian God, because, well, that would invalidate your belief in the Christian God otherwise.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

Okay just because you believe the world to be billions of years old doesn't mean anything. Evolution just as creationism are both theories and without any evidence to your theory you can't throw it around as fact.

...
Why?
Why is it people seem to pretend to know the definition to a word they most certainly do not?
You don't just throw around the word 'theory' as if it means 'something we just came up with.' Evolution is a recordable, testable, and highly documented subject. Maybe if you'd spent some time reading the thread you'd have seen why this is. What makes me sad is that Eevee linked to a site regarding evidence for evolution twice only a page ago.

Meanwhile, I have yet to see a shred of credible proof for creationism other than some thousand year old books that some guys in caves wrote.

I said it made since to me. You can not tell me how to think or how to feel on a matter, because you lack the right to do so. And I don't see any questions and exsitence of God would raise other than the question of how they came to be, with the simple answering being that they always existed.

... Um...
If God could have 'always existed', and we ignore, for a second, the Big Bang theory (lol just a theory), why can't the universe have 'always existed'. Or is it not as special as a beardy man in the sky?
Oh, and it does raise other questions;
1. Where does God get his reality and physics bending powers?
2. Why is he such a dick to his own creations?
3. Why is it that everything he made is imperfect?
4. How can he be perfect when perfection is subjective?
5. If he's omniscient, does this dictate fate? And if so, how could he have given man free will considering he'd surely know the future?
6. If he's omniscient (or even omnipotent, as he'd have the power to give himself omniscience), why is he such a dick to his creations considering he knows everything that's going to happen, and thus it's his fault?
7. Why is the magic beardy man more plausible than scientific observation?
To name a few.
Oh, and what makes sense to you means nothing without evidence to back it up. If I said it makes sense to me that chicken should logically taste like bacon, as they're both meat products, that wouldn't make me right until I went and tasted them both.

I never said things evolved for the heck of it, stop taking whatever I say out of context. You talk about evolution as if it were true, but you seem to keep forgetting it is just a theory. Unless you can site any evidence that your claims are true, stop spewing stuff just for the sake of an arguement. Common sense says that if creatures evovled over time, we should have by now.

...
He posted links to evidence for evolution on the other page.
Read the thread.

Oh, and go learn yourself some science. Evolution doesn't just 'happen' like you seem to think it should. Humans have been around for a mere few thousand years, which is a minuscule amount of time compared to the amount of time life has existed on this planet, and even then evolution on a noticeable scale occurred at a slow rate.

In other news, harmful microorganisms like flu are constantly adapting to resist new vaccines, we're unnaturally selecting domesticated animals to breed for qualities that we want (larger eggs from chickens, and the like), and we share, like, 98% of our DNA with chimps, and 49% with banana trees (iirc).

Look I was asked a question on my beliefs and I was stating why I believe in God. I never once stated that my beliefs were fact. Learn to read before you say anything, or you'll just make yourself look like an ass. As for the question presented in your statement, I don't beileve in ANY deities other than the Christian God.

Wait, wait. You're telling us to learn to read when I doubt you've even skimmed over the thread!?

Oh, and why don't you believe in any other deities, other than the Christian God? I mean, I'd think the Thor would have much more impact, I mean, he kills giants. And what about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? He has verifiable proof of his existence, like the increase of global warming with the decrease of pirates, and whatnot.

Gees, why're you such an atheist to all these awesome gods!?

 

[Shadowstar]

No.

Because, if god created the universe, what created god? The 'Big Bang' make alot more sense because it's belive able, I mean I read somewhere that astonimers heard the last faint wisper of the Big Bang in 19 something, so it only makes sense that it's true. How could you hear the last of something if it never happened? You can't. And...

Scientific theories are hypotheses which have been extensively tested, are supported by all the facts, and are accepted by the scientific community to be true. Theories in every day speech refer to an untested hypothesis, which is in fact quite the opposite.

Darwinism is a scientific theory. Creationism is not.

Quoted becaue it is exactly what I'm thinking. opaltiger just beat me to it. Meh.

I alwasys fail at trying to debate because someone will alwayssay something like "Then who created you? That's right, god did." and I'd be at a loss of words.

 

[EvilCrazyMonkey]

and also
this is not what evolution is, scientifically speaking.

 

[Shadowstar]

Exactly! I don't know why anyone would have thought it was.

 

[Valor]

what

evolution doesn't work like that

there is no "progression" to any particular life-form, all evolution does is adapt an organism to its environment. it's not trying to make humans - it just makes animals that are adapted perfectly to where they live.

Same thing. Adapted, progression.

Or not. My bad.

 

[Eevee]

Okay just because you believe the world to be billions of years old doesn't mean anything.

On the contrary. Something with a one-in-a-million chance is going to happen fairly frequently across billions of years and trillions of trillions of planets.

Evolution just as creationism are both theories and without any evidence to your theory you can't throw it around as fact.

Creationism is not a theory. Theories are things like the atomic model and quantum mechanics. Evolution is in this category.

I said it made since to me. You can not tell me how to think or how to feel on a matter, because you lack the right to do so.

I am making a conjecture I believe to be quite sound.

And I don't see any questions and exsitence of God would raise other than the question of how they came to be, with the simple answering being that they always existed.

And you have confirmed exactly what I said: believing in a god wraps up everything in a deceptive neat little package.

You judge evolution by how it compares to your observations of the world, but do not seem willing to do the same to the concept of a deity. This is hypocrisy. Most definitions of "god" violate all of the more major physical laws we have; you cannot simply brush that aside and call it more sensible than natural selection.

I never said things evolved for the heck of it, stop taking whatever I say out of context.

I did not say you said that; I simply said it is not true.

You talk about evolution as if it were true, but you seem to keep forgetting it is just a theory.

Unless you can site any evidence that your claims are true, stop spewing stuff just for the sake of an arguement.

Common sense says that if creatures evovled over time, we should have by now.

Common sense also says that it is impossible to create something from nothing, and yet you believe in a god.

Tectonic plates move over time. Shouldn't the continents be elsewhere?

This argument makes no sense for several reasons.
1. Evolved into what? Anything different from now? Then you could say the same thing!
2. Evolution takes time; it has been only a few hundred thousand years since this species even existed.
3. Creatures do not merely evolve over time. Creatures adapt over time. Our technology has long since been good enough that we don't need to adapt to our environment. We don't need to develop fur; we have clothing and heating. We don't need to develop better modes of transportation; we have vehicles. We don't need to develop better immune systems; we have antibiotics and cooking. We have greatly reduced environmental pressures with technology, so there is little to adapt to.
4. As I said before, we have fairly well defeated natural selection by keeping everyone alive as long as possible. Natural selection only works when certain traits make an individual more likely to procreate. If traits carry little risk of death and the population is large and monogamous enough that almost everyone has a chance to breed, natural selection's effect will be considerably dulled.

Look I was asked a question on my beliefs and I was stating why I believe in God.

You may or may not have noticed that this is a debate thread. If I see something with which I significantly disagree, I will debate it. If you cannot defend your own beliefs well enough to participate, you are free to leave.

I never once stated that my beliefs were fact.

If you do not think them to be facts, then why believe them?

As for the question presented in your statement, I don't beileve in ANY deities other than the Christian God.

Why not? Why are they less valid than the Christian god? You said you believe in God because you agree with his "values"; how are they different from the values of other gods?

 

[Time Psyduck]

1. Where does God get his reality and physics bending powers?

He invented reality and physics, therefore why would he be limited by them?

2. Why is he such a dick to his own creations?

He isn't. God has given Satan and humanity a chance to prove they don't need God and humans can rule themselves. God is actually being fair by remaining uninvolved in what happens on Earth

3. Why is it that everything he made is imperfect?
4. How can he be perfect when perfection is subjective?

God is perfect. Everything else is perfect for it's purpose and is only perfect in a relative sense. Humanity later became imperfect thank to Satan.

5. If he's omniscient, does this dictate fate? And if so, how could he have given man free will considering he'd surely know the future?

Because he can choose not to forsee what will happen. For example, say I have the key to the cabinet which has my test papers for next week in. I have the power to see the questions before I am asked them, however I can also choose not to see the papers

7. Why is the magic beardy man more plausible than scientific observation?

Why is blind chance more plausable than innelligence?

To some people, God is more plausable than scientific speculation. To others, he is not. It's a difference of veiwpoint, and without absolute proof either way no-one can be knowingly right or wrong

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

Science openly admits they made errors and constantly seek to become better and close loopholes which is something creationism never does, ever.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

He invented reality and physics, therefore why would he be limited by them?

This makes no sense, and drags forward the question of, "where the hell did he come from, if he's not the subject of the laws of physics?"

He isn't. God has given Satan and humanity a chance to prove they don't need God and humans can rule themselves. God is actually being fair by remaining uninvolved in what happens on Earth

I agree, isn't God a nice person, allowing the Holocaust, the World Wars, the Crusades, the Iraq war, and many other gruesome things humanity has done! I'm so happy he's not intervening!

Also, you forget that a few posts ago I already stated reasons why God is a complete and utter dick, mainly for allowing the Earth to be imperfect enough for earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, etc. to occur on a regular basis, and also for, logically, creating every hideous pandemic that has threatened humanity since the beginning of time.

Also, didn't you say you didn't believe in hell? Why're you bringing the big red guy in the ground into this?

Because he can choose not to forsee what will happen. For example, say I have the key to the cabinet which has my test papers for next week in. I have the power to see the questions before I am asked them, however I can also choose not to see the papers

... Um, so?
You didn't answer my next question, which was essentially, "if he has omniscience, and he can know everything that will happen, why does he blame us for mistakes he could've made sure wouldn't happen.

The very existence of omniscience dictates fate, and the very existence of omnipotence can grant omniscience, thus God is still a dick for punishing us for his own mistakes.

Why is blind chance more plausable than innelligence?

Go learn yourself some science; that is not what evolution is.​

To some people, God is more plausable than scientific speculation. To others, he is not. It's a difference of veiwpoint, and without absolute proof either way no-one can be knowingly right or wrong

...
Read the thread.

Evolution isn't wild speculation, evolution isn't without proof, and evolution most certainly isn't at the same level of credibility as your immaterial magic man.

 

[nastypass]

can we ban time psyduck? I'm offended by his lack of common sense :'[

 

[Time Psyduck]

This makes no sense, and drags forward the question of, "where the hell did he come from, if he's not the subject of the laws of physics?"

God has no beginnning. I realise that the concept is beyond human comprehension, but why does that make it wrong?

I agree, isn't God a nice person, allowing the Holocaust, the World Wars, the Crusades, the Iraq war, and many other gruesome things humanity has done! I'm so happy he's not intervening!

God allows these thing to happen. God does not cause them, but if he were to stop them he would defete his own argument (humans need God)

Also, you forget that a few posts ago I already stated reasons why God is a complete and utter dick, mainly for allowing the Earth to be imperfect enough for earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, etc. to occur on a regular basis, and also for, logically, creating every hideous pandemic that has threatened humanity since the beginning of time.

God DOES NOT get involved in such matters as humanity is at the moment trialing life without God. See the end of the post.

Also, didn't you say you didn't believe in hell? Why're you bringing the big red guy in the ground into this?

Satan =/= hell.
Satan exists. Hell = Death. Hell as in eternal torture is fiction.

... Um, so?
You didn't answer my next question, which was essentially, "if he has omniscience, and he can know everything that will happen, why does he blame us for mistakes he could've made sure wouldn't happen.

The very existence of omniscience dictates fate, and the very existence of omnipotence can grant omniscience, thus God is still a dick for punishing us for his own mistakes.

Because he gives us free will, and part of that privilige is the responsibility to use it correctly. Hence blaming god for misue of free will is somewhat like blaming Butterfree if people started posting porn on these forums

Go learn yourself some science; that is not what evolution is.​

Blind = Lacking an intelligent mind (or similar)
Chance = Happening for no specific reason

Blind Chance = Unplanned occurences for no specific reason

...
Read the thread.

Evolution isn't wild speculation, evolution isn't without proof, and evolution most certainly isn't at the same level of credibility as your immaterial magic man.

At higher classifications it's to a large degree extrapolation, it is not proven, and my point was the difference of opinion

Satan (and Adam & Eve) has posed a challenge to God: That humas don't need God. In order to prove his point, God has given humanity the chance to rule itself. This way it can be proven to all creation (including angels) that God is needed. If god were to make life easy for humans, they'd think they don't need God (Although a lot of humans think that anyway) and it would defeat God's argument.

It's like a teacher, who, when a student thinks the lesson is being taught wrong, allows the student to teach instead. This would provide proof that the teacher is right, as opposed to just sending the student out, which would not resolve the issue. God helping out humanity would be like the teacher telling the student how to teach the class better than himself, which would be a bad idea.

The last point may sound like waffle but I'm struggling to put it in words.

 

[opaltiger]

Chance = Happening for no specific reason

this is the bit you are tripping up on. Evolution is not random chance.