Everyone's racist

[shy ♡]

well, my reasoning is as follows:
1) i am racist.
2) there is no exemplary reason for me to be racist outside of being raised in a mostly white environment during early childhood.
3) it seems to be common that many people are raised in a mostly racially homogenous environment during early childhood.
4) i do not seem to be very different from most people.
5) therefore i assume that most people ("everyone") are racist.

and okay, i am sorry for implying that you were doing so.

I agree with those lines of thought aside from, obvious by this point, that most people = everyone. And now I'm becoming repetitive, so.

 

[Aisling]

what i'm trying to say is that your claim holds about as much water as mine does, so i don't understand why you're criticising me and saying "that's just false" when you have just about as much of an idea as i do about it. i found it silly.

But the thing is that Pentimento is (for the sake of argument at least, since you seem to still be attesting that "everyone" is racist, whatever idk), not racist, because most people are pretty sure what their own thoughts are... so how does it not hold water, the same way trying to tell someone they're thinking something that they aren't doesn't? Am I missing something?

 

[Zuu]

But the thing is that Pentimento is (for the sake of argument at least, since you seem to still be attesting that "everyone" is racist, whatever idk), not racist, because most people are pretty sure what their own thoughts are... so how does it not hold water, the same way trying to tell someone they're thinking something that they aren't doesn't? Am I missing something?

i'm not telling it that it's racist, because i will accept that it knows what it's saying (even though i may be skeptical). i'm saying that its belief that not everyone is racist holds about as much water as my belief that most people are racist, because we're basing this on personal experience.

 

[#1 bro]

well, my reasoning is as follows:
1) i am racist.
2) there is no exemplary reason for me to be racist outside of being raised in a mostly white environment during early childhood.
3) it seems to be common that many people are raised in a mostly racially homogenous environment during early childhood.
4) i do not seem to be very different from most people.
5) therefore i assume that most people ("everyone") are racist.

and okay, i am sorry for implying that you were doing so.

I don't think that this is very good reasoning, (and I also am somehow doubtful that this actually is your genuine line of thought). You could substitute the first line with "i like milk" or "i played video games as a child" or "i am gay" or "i dislike short people" or almost anything you can think of that applies to you and infer the same result.

 

[Zuu]

i don't follow, could you explain what is wrong with it? edit: except maybe point four

(and for the record i don't think any of those lines could be taken to the same conclusion in a very reasonable manner :P)

 

[#1 bro]

i do x, i had an average upbringing, therefore the average person does x? this is definitely not true

edit: also this

i'm not telling it that it's racist, because i will accept that it knows what it's saying (even though i may be skeptical). i'm saying that its belief that not everyone is racist holds about as much water as my belief that most people are racist, because we're basing this on personal experience.

doesn't make sense, that's like saying "the equation x^2 - 1 will always be a positive number", followed by a person saying "not if you plug in 1/4", and you arguing that neither of you could know the answer simply because neither of you have plugged in every single possible x value.

 

[Zuu]

well we're talking about a psychological and social disposition, rather than drinking milk or something, so i think it is more likely than those given scenarios. after all i believe it is built into us :|a

 

[#1 bro]

okay then how about "i am gay" or "i hate all authority" or "i suffer from anxiety" or "i prefer to hang out in groups of 3-4 people than in a large crowd" or "i get bored very easily" or pretty much anything

or even "i am sexist" or "i am homophobic" (I don't think everyone is these things, perhaps sexist but certainly not homophobic)

 

[Zuu]

okay. i'm proposing that these different dispositions to races is an evolutionary trait, though i don't know if this is accurate at all and i'm probably just talking myself into a grave right now. none of your examples seem to really fit this proposal.

i guess i should go and research this now.

edit: okay, so it seems to me that race is used as a means to determine who one would better work with or uhh as Wikipedia states "coalition membership". (yes yes i know, Wikipedia)

apparently it's just easier for people with the same color to group together.

so i guess what i'm wondering is: why am i racist?

 

[Tailsy]

I was raised in a country with a population that is 98% white. I don't think I'd seen maybe more than ten black people in my life before I visited New York. I don't really think things like 'oh, that black person will probably mug me'* or 'that Pakistani probably owns a corner shop'**, but I was really, really hyper-aware of the fact that there were people who weren't the same colour as me. It was pretty weird. I wasn't afraid or confused or anything, I was just... aware.

I'm pretty sure I'm racist in some ways. But I don't really know why, either.

* because I didn't really know that many 'black stereotypes' because we didn't have enough black people to stereotype, I suppose
** because that is just silly

 

[Minish]

I was raised in a country with a population that is 98% white. I don't think I'd seen maybe more than ten black people in my life before I visited New York. I don't really think things like 'oh, that black person will probably mug me'* or 'that Pakistani probably owns a corner shop'**, but I was really, really hyper-aware of the fact that there were people who weren't the same colour as me. It was pretty weird. I wasn't afraid or confused or anything, I was just... aware.

Same here. My county is one of the least ethnically diverse counties in the entire country (98.5% white). I think I've seen about three black people in my life here in my county; when I went to London recently, it made me feel very, very disoriented to see black people wherever I turned.

Most people make generalisations based on race, but is this actually racism? If all the gay men you meet happen to be very camp, is it really homophobic to initially assume the next gay man you meet has to be camp?

It's just making generalisations based on what you're used to. Or, what the media tells you. But you're not doing it because of their race, or that you think their race genuinely makes them different. It's just out of experience. :/

Am I making sense?

And, I also feel like Tailsy about generalisations - I barely have any generalisations. I heard "all Asian people are nerds!" when I was younger, but because I didn't know any Asian people, and thought that this was rather ridiculous (how can all or even most Asian people be nerds?) I completely disregarded this.

Thus, if I am racist in some way, I'd think I'm very much unaware of it. But I feel like my point about generalisations still stand. To me most if it seems like thinking "most brown-haired people have blue eyes" if all the brown-haired people you know have blue eyes. In time, you realise that your misconceptions were false as you meet more brown-haired people without blue eyes.

Plus, I know hardly any racial stereotypes. :/ That said, most people I meet seem to have them. "lololol that guy on the news is Arabic, he must be a terrorist" is the kind of thing I hear constantly at school, but I just... don't think that way whatsoever, and find it rather silly? Hm.

 

[opaltiger]

"Most people" works just fine.

No it doesn't. "Most people" suggests a significant minority. I am talking about an insignificant minority.

Most people make generalisations based on race, but is this actually racism?

Well, obviously it depends on how you define racism, and obviously I'm not talking about overt racism. You can rephrase it, if you like; "everyone makes judgements based on race". I think that is essentially (if, in the majority of cases, more or less harmlessly) racist.

 

[shy ♡]

Most people make generalisations based on race, but is this actually racism? If all the gay men you meet happen to be very camp, is it really homophobic to initially assume the next gay man you meet has to be camp?

It's just making generalisations based on what you're used to. Or, what the media tells you. But you're not doing it because of their race, or that you think their race genuinely makes them different. It's just out of experience. :/

Am I making sense?

And, I also feel like Tailsy about generalisations - I barely have any generalisations. I heard "all Asian people are nerds!" when I was younger, but because I didn't know any Asian people, and thought that this was rather ridiculous (how can all or even most Asian people be nerds?) I completely disregarded this.

Thus, if I am racist in some way, I'd think I'm very much unaware of it. But I feel like my point about generalisations still stand. To me most if it seems like thinking "most brown-haired people have blue eyes" if all the brown-haired people you know have blue eyes. In time, you realise that your misconceptions were false as you meet more brown-haired people without blue eyes.

Plus, I know hardly any racial stereotypes. :/ That said, most people I meet seem to have them. "lololol that guy on the news is Arabic, he must be a terrorist" is the kind of thing I hear constantly at school, but I just... don't think that way whatsoever, and find it rather silly? Hm.

I have to disagree about generalizations (based on race or anything). If you eventually learn they're incorrect, that's good, but they are a form of racism.

Like (I think) I said before, I also don't have any concept of those generalizations. I never even heard that 'Asians are nerds' until #1 bro said it in this thread.

No it doesn't. "Most people" suggests a significant minority. I am talking about an insignificant minority.

Do you not see how that's insulting? You're saying that either I'm wrong about what my thoughts are (aka I am completely not self-aware, or stupid), or that my opinions just don't count ('insignificant').

 

[opaltiger]

Do you not see how that's insulting? You're saying that either I'm wrong about what my thoughts are (aka I am completely not self-aware, or stupid),

... well, yes, I am talking about subconscious racism. I'm not sure how that suggests you're not self-aware or that you're stupid.

or that my opinions just don't count ('insignificant').

Statistically insignificant.

 

[shy ♡]

... well, yes, I am talking about subconscious racism. I'm not sure how that suggests you're not self-aware or that you're stupid.

Subconscsious =/= unconscious, and I don't believe either exists.

 

[Pwnemon]

Zuu, you're saying everybody is racist. Pentimento is saying that that isn't true, he's not racist. Either pentimento isn't a person or not everybody is racist.

 

[Zuu]

Zuu, you're saying everybody is racist. Pentimento is saying that that isn't true, he's not racist. Either pentimento isn't a person or not everybody is racist.

i clearly amended my previous statements.

 

[#1 bro]

Like (I think) I said before, I also don't have any concept of those generalizations. I never even heard that 'Asians are nerds' until #1 bro said it in this thread.

What country do you live in? I cannot imagine that anyone could live in the US and live a relatively average life (middle class, suburban house, public school) and never have heard this stereotype.

I think that racist stereotypes are mostly caused by the media. It seems to me that people have sort of gotten over the idea that people with different skin color are meant to be feared simply because they have different skin color. As such, I think the average racist person (a.k.a. the average person) doesn't fear other races, instead simply has preconceived notions of other races that they learned from TV/Hollywood.

related reading

 

[shy ♡]

What country do you live in? I cannot imagine that anyone could live in the US and live a relatively average life (middle class, suburban house, public school) and never have heard this stereotype.

I think that racist stereotypes are mostly caused by the media. It seems to me that people have sort of gotten over the idea that people with different skin color are meant to be feared simply because they have different skin color. As such, I think the average racist person (a.k.a. the average person) doesn't fear other races, instead simply has preconceived notions of other races that they learned from TV/Hollywood.

related reading

I lived in NY when I was a kid and now live in Israel.

 

[Dannichu]

Race and racism are, I think, two massively complicated concepts that have been hugely simplified by the media, and people in this thread are using them in different ways.

I think maybe a better thread title would be "Everyone does racist things" or even "We exist inside a racist society, and as a result many of our actions, whether intentional or not, are racist".

The intentionality of racism is a very important point. Very few people mean to do racist things, but the truth is, people in a privileged position within society (for the purposes of this discussion, white people) benefit from the racist structure of society every day. Every time you get on a train and don't have to worry that people think you're a terrorist. Every time you walk down a street and don't have people crossing the road to avoid you because they think you'll mug them. Every time you go to the shops and don't have people asking you where things are because they assume you work there.

When you're a white person, people see and treat you as a person. When you're a black person, people see and treat you as a black person. This is especially obvious if you look at the labelling of people in the US - terms like "African-American", "Asian-American" and even "Native American" are commonplace, but "European-American" is almost never used because, if you're white, you're seen as "American-American".

Being white gives you the freedom to be whoever or whatever you want (obviously within the confines of other societal classifications like gender, class and so on), but if you're not white, you're constantly forced to be a representative of your entire race, whether you like it or not.

This is a very simplified, exaggerated version of the forces at work behind white privelige, but the point is how people don't realize they're benefiting from - and thusly reinforcing - a massively racist system: