Gender

[Phantom]

Sarcasm, uv, it was sarcasm.

 

[surskitty]

Cutting off from the rest of whatever you guys said~

Hands down, gender was created so us, as humans, can breed. (Yes, it's insensitive, but read) It's a basic part of life. Grow up, learn, breed, die. Push though the challenges that might be of worry, make yourself comfortable for as long as possible for the time being, and keep yourself alive so you can breed and keep our species alive so our children do the same. The not letting females vote, total bullcrap, and we know that. Woman's rights? We're people, it's not like we don't have souls or something. Treating females differently? Flip 'em off and keep going. Be nice to people your friends with of family, but if someone tries to stop you, flip 'em and keep going. See the world and don't stop.

(I just noticed my speech is moving a different way, so I'll stop typing now > .>)

You should maybe look through the thread a bit.

Also 'females' as a noun to refer to people is rude :/

 

[Dannichu]

Also 'females' as a noun to refer to people is rude :/

And it makes you sound like a Doctor Who villian.

 

[Datura]

I know I'm jumping in really late here, but I was reading through this thread and this post intrigued me:

Because there are a lot of related identities that start with 'trans' and it's easier to use a wildcard than to try to list everything.

This is particularly striking because it's been established in this thread that gender identity is a very important part of the human condition for a lot of people; the idea of eliminating gender completely is insulting to many, and an idea that is afforded by the lens of cisgender privelege. Because of that, it would be quite insulting for me to dismiss one's preferred pronoun and instead use what I perceive as the ideal all-encompassing pronoun. Right?

Basically, why is the general sentiment that an all-encompassing, gender-neutral pronoun is a bad idea, yet using "trans*" isn't? Are "transgender" and "transsexual" not identity words in the same vein as "man" or "woman"? I'm aware that none of those four words are mutually-exclusive; still, why is it not insulting to throw them into one convenient umbrella term?

I'm asking this because I'm genuinely confused, not because I wish to provoke or challenge anyone.

 

[shy ♡]

I know I'm jumping in really late here, but I was reading through this thread and this post intrigued me:

This is particularly striking because it's been established in this thread that gender identity is a very important part of the human condition for a lot of people; the idea of eliminating gender completely is insulting to many, and an idea that is afforded by the lens of cisgender privelege. Because of that, it would be quite insulting for me to dismiss one's preferred pronoun and instead use what I perceive as the ideal all-encompassing pronoun. Right?

Basically, why is the general sentiment that an all-encompassing, gender-neutral pronoun is a bad idea, yet using "trans*" isn't? Are "transgender" and "transsexual" not identity words in the same vein as "man" or "woman"? I'm aware that none of those four words are mutually-exclusive; still, why is it not insulting to throw them into one convenient umbrella term?

I'm asking this because I'm genuinely confused, not because I wish to provoke or challenge anyone.

Transgender and transexual can be a part of identity, same as man and woman, however trans* isn't referring to a specific person, but the community as a whole. It's not singling anyone out, but trying to include everyone; thus it cannot erase someone's identity because the * includes everyone who is trans.

An all-encompassing gender-neutral pronoun would be applied to individuals, whereas trans* is applied where individuals are not known and thus a pronoun/specific word cannot be applied.

 

[Minish]

When you're using 'trans*', you're referring to everyone/anyone who identifies as trans*; when you decide to use a particular gender-neutral pronoun you're doing the deciding. Then it's not about how we identify but about what you are using to refer to us. For me trans* is what I am and my preferred pronouns are what I'd like you to call me!

Also, I'm a little confused too! I'm assuming you're talking about everyone using the same gender-neutral pronoun? It feels like you're implying that everyone non-binary or whatever likes to be called trans*, which isn't really true, and also that if someone said "hey I don't identify as trans* don't call me that" it would be okay to go "nope gonna call you that anyway" because it's an umbrella term.

Even then, trans* is kind of descriptive as well as an identity? Pronouns aren't descriptive... 'trans*' and pronouns have totally different meanings and functions so I don't really think they can be compared like this!

 

[Datura]

Your replies make sense, thank you! I'd like to formally blame the incoherene of my question on my lack of sleep lately. I was under the impression that using a collective term for identity words—transsexual, transgender, and any others with the trans- prefix—was akin to using one pronoun (like "it") for anybody who doesn't identify as a man or a woman.

 

[sovram]

Addressing first post --

I'm not cisgender. However, I don't really think about it a lot. It's just a thing. Admittedly it factors into a lot of things in my life, but it's not something I struggle with or anything. It's just a fact.

I encourage the use of alternate pronouns. I've never used any; I'm fine with it and I accept he/his/him since I am physically male and I've been addressed so my entire life. I'm also totally cool with they/their/them. I've always wondered; how do people pronounce ey/eir/em and zhe/zhir/zhim? I'm not trying to make a joke, so excuse me if it sounds like it, but it seems to me that em and zhe, for instance, would end up sounding very much like him and she respectively, depending on whatever dialect of English you speak. So I'm curious as to how this works out when spoken (the orthographic differences are apparent).

Where I live, it's almost a joke. My father claims it's not as bad as I think it is, but I think he's naive (or lying). LGBTQ people tend to be treated pretty poorly.

Moving on --

I think Butterfree brought this up almost half a year ago, but I too am tired of the false equivalency of grammatical gender with, well, gender gender. I admit the terminology is misleading but that's simply what was convenient at the time grammars were being written (I think it may have started with Roman descriptions of Latin but I have no idea, please don't quote me). Dyirbal is the most popular example of a natural language with weird genders, having four, where one is for edible fruits and vegetables and another is for women and dangerous phenomena. But anyway that's neither here nor there.

There are a few things that tend to strike me as annoying when it comes to trans topics, though. And this is coming from a non-cisgender. For instance, I think the idea mentioned in that trans-etiquette that "it's not our job to educate [anyone]" is stupid and counter-productive. Some of it is semantics (how can someone educate themselves without material produced by non-cisgenders?) but that's silly. But what is the point of telling people "God! You're so ignorant! Why don't you learn something about trans*!" and then not actually educating them? Like, on the spot? It seems lazy or rude or something. No matter how it makes me feel, I always go out of my way in order to teach something to people that are wrong or ignorant about transgenderism. Claiming no responsibility for the education of the ignorant will lead nowhere.

 

[Minish]

I've always wondered; how do people pronounce ey/eir/em and zhe/zhir/zhim? I'm not trying to make a joke, so excuse me if it sounds like it, but it seems to me that em and zhe, for instance, would end up sounding very much like him and she respectively, depending on whatever dialect of English you speak. So I'm curious as to how this works out when spoken (the orthographic differences are apparent).

Well! I mostly have only ever seen alternative pronouns online. Now that there are some people irl who use mine, generally I introduce my pronouns as sounding like they/their/them but with the 'th' cut off! And zee, zer, zim. I gueeeess they can sound similar to other pronouns? Like mine sound like he/her/him when spoken quickly? But I don't really mind! If someone is confused, I'll explain!

There are a few things that tend to strike me as annoying when it comes to trans topics, though. And this is coming from a non-cisgender. For instance, I think the idea mentioned in that trans-etiquette that "it's not our job to educate [anyone]" is stupid and counter-productive. Some of it is semantics (how can someone educate themselves without material produced by non-cisgenders?) but that's silly. But what is the point of telling people "God! You're so ignorant! Why don't you learn something about trans*!" and then not actually educating them? Like, on the spot? It seems lazy or rude or something. No matter how it makes me feel, I always go out of my way in order to teach something to people that are wrong or ignorant about transgenderism. Claiming no responsibility for the education of the ignorant will lead nowhere.

Well, the thing is, sometimes trans* people just want to live their lives! Sometimes I am tired, or upset, or don't have time, or simply cannot be bothered when most of the time there is some information around to do the job! Most of the time if someone genuinely just wants to know and is open-hearted and conscientious about it, I am super-happy to explain any single thing!

Because there are people like me around (who are absolutely not better than those who are not willing), it's nearly always okay to say "no, I don't want to explain". You can respect that they do not owe you anything and ask someone else and pretty soon you'll find someone entirely willing. Yep, you'll have to do a bit of work by yourself by finding out who wants to explain!

It sounds really idyllic, the idea that those who know have the moral duty to 'educate the ignorant'. But I do not, actually, have that duty. Educating someone else about something extremely important, personal, and about which I am constantly marginalised for, you know, sometimes doesn't take priority over my own happiness or my own time or my own comfort. Trans* people are already in a horrible position in life! Let them have this own one thing: the ability to say "no, I'm not a messiah, I don't feel like it".

You owe me something because of your privilege - to check it yourself. And it's nothing like you're being left in the water by yourself because I would say well over half of trans* people are going to be completely willing to help you. I don't see how trans* people are the lazy or rude ones for sometimes wanting to just live their own life.

[Mostly a general 'you', here!]

 

[sovram]

Well, the thing is, sometimes trans* people just want to live their lives! Sometimes I am tired, or upset, or don't have time, or simply cannot be bothered when most of the time there is some information around to do the job! Most of the time if someone genuinely just wants to know and is open-hearted and conscientious about it, I am super-happy to explain any single thing!

Well, okay, that's very reasonable. I was starting to get the idea that people would tend to just flat-out refuse most of the time -- which, of course, is very ridiculous and fruitless. I suppose that was my fault.

It sounds really idyllic, the idea that those who know have the moral duty to 'educate the ignorant'. But I do not, actually, have that duty. Educating someone else about something extremely important, personal, and about which I am constantly marginalised for, you know, sometimes doesn't take priority over my own happiness or my own time or my own comfort. Trans* people are already in a horrible position in life! Let them have this own one thing: the ability to say "no, I'm not a messiah, I don't feel like it".

While I agree with you on most points, and I would agree that you do not necessarily have that duty, I feel like it's something that more trans* people might consider taking up. I know everyone can't be an activist, but sometimes I feel like more can be done. And while I think this line of thinking "I don't have to do it because someone else will" can be dangerous, you're absolutely right. Thank you for clearing some of that thinking up.

 

[Autumn]

I had this idea for a lifelong 'experiment' of sorts wherein I would, upon graduating from college and entering the real world, promptly introduce myself to people by telling them that I go with the pronouns ze, zer, zem rather than female pronouns. In reality I identify as female and go by female pronouns, but there have been times in the past where I've debated my gender identity with myself and wondered if I really feel like a female in light of the fact that I don't exactly act feminine very often, but nor do I act excessively masculine; I've wondered if I'd be more suited to third-gender pronouns. I guess in a sense I'm still debating that, much like I'm still debating my sexuality (I call myself 'lesbian' but I have a boyfriend, for instance; I've explained how this makes sense but it doesn't stop people from being confused when I first mention it), but I don't think about it often enough to have reached a conclusion; I'm content with female pronouns and that's all that matters to me.

However, being as how I have had that battle - and I know damn well mine isn't the worst battle for gender identity that's been fought - when I've discussed the concept of gender identity with my friends and my own thoughts about whether I'm mentally female, not all of them take to it immediately and some aren't even aware of the concept (I've explained it many times before).

So my idea for the experiment was to introduce myself to people right off the bat by saying "I identify as a third gender and would prefer the pronouns ze, zer, and zim, please." and sort of keeping a record of sorts of how many people take to it instantly, how many are iffy at first, how many completely drop contact with me or something similar after the mention, and how many end up forgetting my desire to go by those pronouns and call me a 'she'. If there is ever confusion over the third gender and the concept of gender identity from someone unaware of such a thing, I'll be willing to explain it. It would be a twofold attempt to raise awareness of such and figure out what the current societal views on the concept of sex vs. gender are. And at the end of the day I might write a book or an article detailing the results of this lifelong survey to make it known. I have no fear about being ostracized by the community - I'm a loner most of the time as is, and I'll probably keep in touch with my current friends (who would accept me if I were to legitimately switch pronouns) and my boyfriend has absolutely no intention of leaving me, so as far as we're concerned my relationship status is indefinite. If I'm ostracized - well, all the more fuel for my research.

Thoughts?

 

[Minish]

I feel like it's something that more trans* people might consider taking up. I know everyone can't be an activist, but sometimes I feel like more can be done.

Most trans* people... are activists? Even not just going by my wide definition, which includes "getting through shitty day by shitty day while trying not to compromise yourself". Activism is more than educating any individual who asks about your identity and/or body.

I appreciate your response though, yay! There might be a few people who'd flat-out refuse, but even then, I wouldn't consider it in any way fair to judge them for it. Sometimes you've had enough. Sometimes you've had to deal with your entire family and community completely rejecting your identity and autonomy and when a casual cisgender person has the audacity to treat you like a personal educator, yeah, wow.

Polymetric: Errrrrr, I'm really not sure. I think you'd find a lot of trans* people would completely side-eye you, especially if your ultimate goal is to write a book on their appropriated experiences...

If you're going to try out alternative pronouns, maybe think about if it's mainly because you think you'd feel much more comfortable that way, or if it's because you're just curious. I mean, the latter is cool too? I guess? But can you see how you might be invalidating things by choosing to use our methods of personal survival? Maybe if the tone of this social experiment (seriously, 'experiment'? research some trans* history :C) was a bit better I'd be less disturbed buuuut yeah.

Horribly I feel like this kind of 'social experiment' would get a lot more attention than a book about trans* people just talking about their experiences.

I don't know. Pretty questionable.

 

[Autumn]

Cirrus: I didn't mean for it to come off like me being like "Olol I'll be trans for an experiment!" - it's more like I want to take a survey about society's opinions on gender identity and such and raise awareness and I figure the results might be more effective if I presented as trans than if I just, you know, brought it up randomly or whatnot. I do see how I might end up kinda belittling actual trans people through saying "I'm not trans but I'm doing an experiment and pretending to be one." but I don't wonder if perhaps the end justifies the means in this case? if I can raise awareness and manage to get it out there that trans is a normal thing and point out how reluctant society is to accept that, if I can have a hope of doing something for that cause, is my lying about my identity really so bad? I like to think my intentions are good - you'll have to excuse me if you think my method in this case is horrific; there's a chance right now that I'm just failing to put myself properly in other people's shoes and see my earlier post from a perspective that's not mine. Maybe it's just because *I* wouldn't take offense to something like that and I do have trouble understanding that little seriously does offend me but that's not true for others.

 

[sovram]

Most trans* people... are activists? Even not just going by my wide definition, which includes "getting through shitty day by shitty day while trying not to compromise yourself". Activism is more than educating any individual who asks about your identity and/or body.

I appreciate your response though, yay! There might be a few people who'd flat-out refuse, but even then, I wouldn't consider it in any way fair to judge them for it. Sometimes you've had enough. Sometimes you've had to deal with your entire family and community completely rejecting your identity and autonomy and when a casual cisgender person has the audacity to treat you like a personal educator, yeah, wow.

Yes, activist probably wasn't the best word choice. I guess educator is closer to what I was looking for. As a relatively closeted agender individual, I guess I don't have the same sort of experiences that other trans* people do. So I'm sorry if I've been inconsiderate in any of my posts. You make a good point about "personal educators". Ever since I became an atheist and became aware of transgenderism, I have always tried to be the person to talk to when you* have questions (or the person to call you* out when you* are being inconsiderate or offensive), but it's totally understandable that not everyone [can]/[wants to] do that and no, they shouldn't be judged.

Thank you very much for your civil attitude! I really appreciate it. You've given me some important things to think about. Now, I will probably violate all of the wisdom presented previously in this thread by asking, would you be one to talk about concerning your usage of alternate pronouns and what they mean to you and to trans* people in general? This subject has been beat to death, I know, but I kind of want a conversation-level discussion (like PM or something) about it because it's very interesting to me as a wanna-be linguist. If this isn't acceptable, though, please feel free to ignore this.

*general you

 

[Minish]

Cirrus: I didn't mean for it to come off like me being like "Olol I'll be trans for an experiment!" - it's more like I want to take a survey about society's opinions on gender identity and such and raise awareness and I figure the results might be more effective if I presented as trans than if I just, you know, brought it up randomly or whatnot. I do see how I might end up kinda belittling actual trans people through saying "I'm not trans but I'm doing an experiment and pretending to be one." but I don't wonder if perhaps the end justifies the means in this case? if I can raise awareness and manage to get it out there that trans is a normal thing and point out how reluctant society is to accept that, if I can have a hope of doing something for that cause, is my lying about my identity really so bad? I like to think my intentions are good - you'll have to excuse me if you think my method in this case is horrific; there's a chance right now that I'm just failing to put myself properly in other people's shoes and see my earlier post from a perspective that's not mine. Maybe it's just because *I* wouldn't take offense to something like that and I do have trouble understanding that little seriously does offend me but that's not true for others.

But the thing is, this isn't that good for trans* people. In the end, if you don't seriously and personally identify as trans*, yours is not a trans* voice.

Maybe some trans* people would find your idea interesting! I'm far from the Trans Representative here. But trans* experiences have been made into social experiments and sensationalised for the benefit of sociology before.

There is already proof out there that society is unaccepting of being trans - there are awful suicide statistics, the life expectancy is hilariously terrifying, etc. etc. etc. forever. Trans* activist organisations are already trying to prove how awful it is being trans*. Trans* writers are already writing about their experiences, and to them it's not just a research game! Probably a lot of cisgender people would be more interesting in reading something like your book, which wouldn't actually be that much of a threat. Perhaps awareness would be raised! But I don't think it'd be that much help because trying solely to raise awareness - particularly about something you would be seen as intruding into - isn't a good objective anyway.

Also yeah, lying about your identity here *would* be pretty questionable. Since you're like, going to be pretending to be trans*, presumably around at least a few people who are trans* themselves who will be seeeriously side-eyeing you.

 

[Autumn]

But the thing is, this isn't that good for trans* people. In the end, if you don't seriously and personally identify as trans*, yours is not a trans* voice.

[...]

Also yeah, lying about your identity here *would* be pretty questionable. Since you're like, going to be pretending to be trans*, presumably around at least a few people who are trans* themselves who will be seeeriously side-eyeing you.

Okay, that's fair. Thanks for explaining. Like I said - issues with putting myself in other people's shoes. ^^;

 

[shy ♡]

@Poly, you could always make an actual survey and post it online for people to answer in.

Sovram, I'd be willing to answer gender-related questions, if Cirrus isn't up to it.

 

[Minish]

I'd pretty much always be up for it?? I was explaining why sometimes people aren't! Really, I wish people I knew asked more!

Poly: Really, if you're actually interested, writing about gender-neutral pronouns or trans*ness or gender identity or whatever! could still be a really cool thing to do! :o I mean, writing about other people's experiences (or yours, if you find your gender identity really is floating in that direction) could still be interesting and useful, right!

 

[bulbasaur]

@Poly, you could always make an actual survey and post it online for people to answer in.

Well, I'd go ahead and say that the demographics of people online aren't exactly representative of the general population.

 

[shy ♡]

Well, I'd go ahead and say that the demographics of people online aren't exactly representative of the general population.

... Yes they are? The general population is online. Even homeless people go online.