Gender

[Zero Moment]

Hmmm.....
I like it.
Hopefully this will start a chain reaction to create similar projects around the world.
First though, we have to see if this is actually successful.

 

[Tarvos]

I find that whole Egalia thing a bit too forced. I think schools should be doing less parenting on these issues anyway. It would be better if parents stopped shipping off responsibility on issues like this to schools and just SPENT TIME WITH THEIR CHILDREN TO FIND OUT WHAT THEY LIKE.

 

[Zero Moment]

I find that whole Egalia thing a bit too forced. I think schools should be doing less parenting on these issues anyway. It would be better if parents stopped shipping off responsibility on issues like this to schools and just SPENT TIME WITH THEIR CHILDREN TO FIND OUT WHAT THEY LIKE.

Not everyone can spend time with their children all day.
There's a reason preschool exists.

 

[Minish]

I find that whole Egalia thing a bit too forced. I think schools should be doing less parenting on these issues anyway. It would be better if parents stopped shipping off responsibility on issues like this to schools and just SPENT TIME WITH THEIR CHILDREN TO FIND OUT WHAT THEY LIKE.

But they don't! There are lots of parents who even if they could spend time with their children wouldn't because they aren't that great parents (and maybe it's not even their fault that they aren't!) So what do we do about that?? Just give up those children as a lost cause? And parenting is a sizeable influence on socialising kids, yeah, but hardly an absolute one.

It only seems 'forced' because it's new. Lots of things seem forced before everyone gets used to them!

 

[Hiikaru]

So I've noticed more people using these pronouns. And it's confusing the hell out of my brain. I'm sorry but every time I see ' e ' used I keep thinking they're talking like Hagrid or that their 'h' key doesn't work. My brain just doesn't work on that frequency yet. I mean I understand them, and the reason for them, but I keep having to find myself double reading things because my brain keeps looking at... like 'eir' and my brain stops and thinks, "Wtf word is that?...oh wait, that. Right...".

It is confusing especially out loud that's why new Spivak uses "ey" instead of "e"! It is less odd when you get used to it, though! Which I guess is tough if the people around you don't happen to use it that often.

Sorry for the mini-derail, but any opinions on the following:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1014003--swedish-preschool-takes-aim-at-gender-stereotypes

Just what is needed, or going too far?

I'm baffled that people actually have a problem with it, except maybe "well yes that's nice but schools shouldn't deal with that it's not their job" kind of makes sense a little or at least it makes sense that someone could think that about something even if not this thing. How can it possibly stop boys (or other people who might want to do that) playing swordfighting games what no one is saying people who happen to abide by stereo-types aren't okay, just that it shouldn't be the case that anyone *has* to abide by a stereo-type or get thought of as one!

I find that whole Egalia thing a bit too forced. I think schools should be doing less parenting on these issues anyway. It would be better if parents stopped shipping off responsibility on issues like this to schools and just SPENT TIME WITH THEIR CHILDREN TO FIND OUT WHAT THEY LIKE.

I don't understand what you mean by forced! Do you have an idea of what other kinds of things bother you if a school teachers them? How come "I think it would be better if schools didn't teach math why can't parents do it!!" isn't a thing you'd say? I mean I know that's exaggerating the point but I really don't understand why it's different? It's just a fact, even if someone thinks only cisgender people exist, that sometimes you don't know what gender someone is going to be yet. And then shouldn't it be okay for a school to teach how to deal with that? Should the school instead be promoting stereo-types and assumptions? Because I can't think how they would go about *not* doing things to encourage those things without... encouraging those things.

What are you imagining the line should be between what a school can teach and what it can't? Is it okay to make sure kids know that people of any colour are the same? Is it okay to have sex ed? Is it okay to teach evolution???? Evolution is a thing people disagree with but you probably wouldn't say a school shouldn't teach it what makes this different!

 

[shy ♡]

I hate using not-my computers ; ; oh well...

pathos: You keep saying people should just look things up, but how can they? Lots of times they're not really sure enough what it is they're wondering to be able to find anything about it (there's lots of vocabulary they're not aware exists, or they're really confused about how to phrase their questions). Are they just supposed to look up blogs about gender and read through all of them? And then hope they're actually good and accurate blogs, because since they don't have any of those feelings themselves, they're not really sure how to tell?

I don't recall saying (let alone multiple times) that people should just look things up. I did say they should ask in a way that I understand and do not find triggering. (To be honest I don't understand why people don't just look things up; but whatever.)

Also lots of times people just don't know that there's anything amiss that they even could look up. In those cases telling people they should have just looked it up doesn't really make sense - they're just going to have to either make the mistake and get corrected, or have someone randomly come up to them and teach them about it.

Also gender stuff is a really big deal for me and I still don't know any gender resources or how to find any. So how can someone who doesn't know anything about it have them?

I think you've said before that you just "taught yourself" about all the problems and looked things up on your own, but how did you find anything about it? What did you do? (Also, you kind of have a headstart on a lot of people since you already knew something was wrong.)

Yes, I'm an autodidact in every subject except ... singing and horse back riding. I just googled things and searched them on wiki and on tumblr. These are not ridiculously out-there resources; everyone knows about google and wikipedia, and I'm pretty sure everyone on tcod knows about tumblr.

Also! It meshes perfectly well with me that people could read the whole thread and still not get it. Still having a question, even if it's been answered before, doesn't mean they didn't read, it just means it's a really confusing subject and it's really tough for people to explain and then even the really good explanations don't always make sense to everyone! And I think the discussion has helped some people understand a bit, too - so they definitely can learn, it's just really tough.

I would understand not getting it after reading the previous answer. I would get that completely. But wouldn't it be better to ask it differently to how it was previously asked, then? If you just ask it in the same exact way, how can you expect different or better results? The only reason I can see someone doing that is because either they didn't read the previous answer, or because they are insane. I didn't want to assume someone was insane, so I assumed they didn't read the previous answer.

 

[Tomboy]

Sorry for the mini-derail, but any opinions on the following:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1014003--swedish-preschool-takes-aim-at-gender-stereotypes



Just what is needed, or going too far?

Personally, I think that it is going too far because I understand the thinking, but just because you are trying to respect people who do not identify as the gender they are born with, you also need to have respect towards people who do identify with the gender they were born with. The best course of action, I think, is to ask the students how they identify, and go with that, and not disregard anyone or any point of view. [Just to be (for lack of a better word) clear - I have complete respect for transgender/gay/bi/straight/etc.]

EDIT: Also, because they are only preschool kids, most of them probably do not even understand the concept of sexuality and identification, so just calling them by their born gender wouldn't necessarily be disrespecting anyone.

 

[Blastoise Fortooate]

It's not about disrespect, though. The idea is that, from an early, early age, boys are given toy trucks and blocks and guns, and girls are given ovens and pink cars and dolls. They're trying to prevent these differences from being ingrained in the children's head permanently. For example...

 

[Hiikaru]

I don't recall saying (let alone multiple times) that people should just look things up. I did say they should ask in a way that I understand and do not find triggering. (To be honest I don't understand why people don't just look things up; but whatever.)

hm, well, even if you haven't specifically said it you've come across that way! There's no reason to try finding logs or posts and nitpicking though so I won't.

I really think people just don't look things up because they don't know there's a thing to look up or how to. "how to be gender-sensitive" brings up junk, "transgender blogs" brings up some blogs that are by people who happen to be transgender but that don't seem to be particularly about how to be polite or anything, plus a post about how to cross-dress, "how to avoid gender stereo-types" is a bunch of articles about "it's okay for girls to play with trucks make sure to give your little girl lots of boy toys so she knows she can be whatever she wants not just a stereotype!!" and... well, I know those aren't the best searches, but I'm honestly not sure what else to look for. Are there some keywords I should use? Is there a better general style of phrasing searches that tends to be more helpful for that??

Also about triggering obviously it's fair to not want to be triggered but people just don't know how to avoid that sometimes yet ("how not to trigger people about gender" has some junk, a post where someone is really really offensive and icky and a different person quotes em and basically goes "shut up you're wrong" in all caps a bunch of times, which, though they're right that those things were bad and mean, doesn't help :c, and a thing on learning about gendered nouns in foreign languages...?). They should try their best, and they should pay attention when people tell them how to be nice (or how not to be a jerk), but sometimes they do that and still mess up! It's just tough for them!

Crazy Linoone for example didn't ask in the best way at first, but ey tried really hard and eir question got a lot better!

I would understand not getting it after reading the previous answer. I would get that completely. But wouldn't it be better to ask it differently to how it was previously asked, then? If you just ask it in the same exact way, how can you expect different or better results? The only reason I can see someone doing that is because either they didn't read the previous answer, or because they are insane. I didn't want to assume someone was insane, so I assumed they didn't read the previous answer.

That makes sense! I'm not sure why people are asking the same way when they've read the thread except that I guess they're not sure what other way there is to ask in? Although lots of people seem to give up really easily when they don't immediately get an answer they understand :c

Personally, I think that it is going too far because I understand the thinking, but just because you are trying to respect people who do not identify as the gender they are born with, you also need to have respect towards people who do identify with the gender they were born with. The best course of action, I think, is to ask the students how they identify, and go with that, and not disregard anyone or any point of view. [Just to be (for lack of a better word) clear - I have complete respect for transgender/gay/bi/straight/etc.]

EDIT: Also, because they are only preschool kids, most of them probably do not even understand the concept of sexuality and identification, so just calling them by their born gender wouldn't necessarily be disrespecting anyone.

Where is it that someone says you should always refer to someone neutrally regardless of how they identify? I think pretty much no one thinks so, because that doesn't make sense and just ends up oppressing people, too. But people aren't trying to oppress cisgender people! That's not a thing that's going on here! So everything's okay. (also, you might want to be careful of expressing the attitude that cisgender people are being oppressed, because it's really problematic when people try to make a movement to make people comfortable and others go "no now you're oppressing the other side!!!!" so that's really irritating for people to hear!)

Also I don't think there's anything really bad about referring to someone by the pronoun that traditionally "matches" their sex if you don't know! I tend not to do that if I can avoid it (and I can lots of times!), but it's fairly likely you'll be calling them the right thing (unless maybe you live in an area with lots of not-cis people?), and as long as you'd do your best to refer to the person the way ey wanted once you learned what that was, then you wouldn't be being mean! It isn't mean to call someone a certain pronoun, it's mean when someone is told that a different one is preferred, and insists on referring to that person as their sex anyway! Not when someone has a hard time and makes mistakes, when they insist. And the reason it's mean is because it makes people feel really, really bad, and doesn't even make anyone feel good in return for those bad feelings. So obviously it should be avoided if possible, and that's what the school is trying to do! Surely that's the best thing to be doing?

 

[Cerberus87]

I like the Egalia idea as an attempt to eliminate gender prejudice, but what I'm really interested to see in such an experiment is that whether boys and girls are naturally attracted to one kind of toys or not. Also, there's an issue that could affect the results negatively: the school may be a controlled experimental environment, but the children don't spend all their time at school. They live in a society driven by gender roles, watch TV shows biased towards gender roles, etc. So it remains to be seen whether the experiment will work or not. I, particularly, have nothing against it as there's no attempt to force certain behaviour onto the children there, and the parents, at the very least, are free to choose another school if they aren't satisfied with Egalia's unique approach.

 

[Harlequin]

I like the Egalia idea as an attempt to eliminate gender prejudice, but what I'm really interested to see in such an experiment is that whether boys and girls are naturally attracted to one kind of toys or not. Also, there's an issue that could affect the results negatively: the school may be a controlled experimental environment, but the children don't spend all their time at school. They live in a society driven by gender roles, watch TV shows biased towards gender roles, etc. So it remains to be seen whether the experiment will work or not. I, particularly, have nothing against it as there's no attempt to force certain behaviour onto the children there, and the parents, at the very least, are free to choose another school if they aren't satisfied with Egalia's unique approach.

I think you're missing something here. The parents enrolled their children into Egalia so they're obviously thinking about gender stereotyping and heteronormative socialisation, so I think it's very likely that they try and do similar things to what's done at Egalia at home. Perhaps not as fully, and perhaps not as well, but at the very least they're probably interested in making their child's home life an environment a bit similar to that which they experience at the school.

 

[Eta Carinae]

The only problem I see with the Egalia Preschool idea is the fact that it is just a preschool. I'm perfectly fine with gender roles being eliminated, or at least having the boundaries between genders become a bit murkier (even though I'm cisgendered myself), but once the children leave the preschool and start in grade school, it won't be the same story. Seeing as they most likely will be spread out among many schools, they won't have many of the same people from the preschool around them. So when a boy goes and picks up a doll, sure, he might start some sort of Kindergarten revolution, but I think there's a good chance that the kids raised in households where gender roles are present will start teasing or bullying the kid. Why wouldn't they? He's a boy. He's playing with girl toys. They're five years old, I don't see many of them instantly understanding the situation that many members of our forum (including me, lots of the time) are in the dark about.

So, a good idea in theory, but I think it would need to be expanded outside of one preschool for the full effect.

 

[surskitty]

10-year-old trans girl on being bullied by adults and accepted by her peers Yeah, er.

 

[Eta Carinae]

10-year-old trans girl on being bullied by adults and accepted by her peers Yeah, er.

Fair enough, but that is only one case (though there are probably more). That doesn't completely disprove children bullying other children for being different. In my personal experience, I could see some kids I went to kindergarten with accepting them fine, and others treating them simply as targets. It also brings up the fact that if the kids do accept the Egalia kids, then there is a high chance that the parents won't. The point I'm trying to make is you never know if other people will be accepting or discriminating in these situations.

 

[surskitty]

Oh, yeah, kids will bully other children for being different, but I doubt they police gender performance more strongly than other things, and just because you don't know if other people will be accepting doesn't mean you shouldn't try. And yeah, just having it be preschool isn't going to be as effective as if it were for everything, but it's a start and if you get to kids early enough, it'll stick with them forever.

 

[Eta Carinae]

Oh, yeah, kids will bully other children for being different, but I doubt they police gender performance more strongly than other things, and just because you don't know if other people will be accepting doesn't mean you shouldn't try. And yeah, just having it be preschool isn't going to be as effective as if it were for everything, but it's a start and if you get to kids early enough, it'll stick with them forever.

I agree with you mostly, but the one problem I have with trying these things is the consequences if they don't work out. If the kids do end up getting bullied a lot, it's not like a normal experiment where you can just scrap it and move on. If it fails, you've ruined a fair bit of a person's life.

I'll say again, I'm perfectly fine with this idea. I support it actually. I just worry about what could happen in a worst-case scenario.

 

[octobr]

Mrf. Here's my inability to phrase anything properly coming to bite me in the butt again.

I suppose the question will now boil down to: what is the thought process of the people who are okay with their body but not okay with the gender most people think of when they see a person of that sort of body?

Hopefully I didn't phrase anything wrong this time...

For me it's like I'm sloooowly getting more comfy with my body, starting to accept what I am physically and group that with still being male, but I know that for all the work I'm going through it's just personal. No one but me is going to understand the many facets of how just cause I have rockin boobs and a ridiculous waist-to-hip ratio it doesn't mean I'm not a guy. And most people see me and read me as female, because of all of those things. I know that everyone is pegging me as a girl and that sits as just Wrong because no one wants to be called something they're definitely not (unless it's flattering, which, well, it isn't here).

Hm. Did that make sense.

So I've noticed more people using these pronouns. And it's confusing the hell out of my brain. I'm sorry but every time I see ' e ' used I keep thinking they're talking like Hagrid or that their 'h' key doesn't work.

... hee hee hee that's kind of cute :B

@bullying discussion -- when I was younger I never really got any hassle for being a tomboy except from my dad. Who. ... still tries to convince me to wear dresses and do girly things. (AND YET he wanted me to quit ballet I DON'T UNDERSTAND EITHER ???)

 

[Tarvos]

But they don't! There are lots of parents who even if they could spend time with their children wouldn't because they aren't that great parents (and maybe it's not even their fault that they aren't!) So what do we do about that?? Just give up those children as a lost cause? And parenting is a sizeable influence on socialising kids, yeah, but hardly an absolute one.

Most parents are decent parents. They just do not have the guts to say no. This is the one thing parenting is about: rule-setting. Most parents feel guilty because they can't spend time with their children so they try to treat them well, ending up spoiling them. But here's the thing - if you want to be a mum or a dad and parent and influence your child the right way, that means you, as a parent, need to MAKE TIME to do so. If you're not ready to be a parent, DON'T HAVE CHILDREN. We have condoms. We have pills. We have contraceptives deluxe. Use, learn, love. There is nothing wrong with not having a child if you want to focus on your career. And if you do decide to start a family, realise that that is a responsibility, not a privilege. Everyone, bar the few people who are infertile, can MAKE BABIES.

It's that simple really. Schools need to teach these children values, and I am not denying they shouldn't, but they're not a substitute for parents doing what they are supposed to do. There are many stories of parents not accepting responsibility for their kids' behaviour when they should, and instead pushing it off to schools. Schools are where you teach children things, it's not where you babysit them, we call that a crèche (or daycare).

Schools should emphasise that there are different kinds of sexuality and teach children to deal with that accordingly, but Egalia is not what it seems: this is Identicalia. Children are not identical, they are all different. But if you want them to come in contact with the real world, then phrase things in such a way that it RHYMES with the real world. No one in the real world uses non-gendered pronouns because that's not what people do. And using them to refer to people who don't fit the gender binary and teaching children such things is one thing. But children have genders and sexes, like it or not. It's normal. So just treat them like you would any other child leave it at that.

It only seems 'forced' because it's new. Lots of things seem forced before everyone gets used to them!

I think the point about it being forced is that it really isn't a normal way to describe the way people grow up. Like Butterfree said, when it comes down to it among people maybe 5-10% of people don't identify as heterosexual. AT BEST. It is entirely relevant to show to children that different sexualities exist. It's another thing to give them an image that is completely disproportional to how reality really works. That's what's forced about it.

Fun fact - I was not taught a single thing about heterosexuality or homosexuality in school. Neither were my friends. It's not like we all turned out homophobes. Some of us came into contact with homosexuality early (I have a gay uncle and a gay cousin, f.e., and thus found it a normal way of living always). You're not doing children a favour by trying to represent homosexuality in a different way like Egalia is trying to do.

Just raise children normally with respect and teach them to treat others with respect, and explain to them what homosexuality, trans, etc is and why it's not an issue. If you can do that, you're golden. Everything else is propaganda.

And like I said: it starts with us, the people, the parents, taking responsibility for our children to be taught respect for other people and their differences. This is not a school's job. This is a parent's job, and unless the parents are completely unable to do any parenting, maybe then should a school step in and explain these things. But parents have responsibilities and a job to do and they are the first to be targeted, schools second, daycares third, and the rest last.

 

[Crazy Linoone]

stuff

more stuff

I think I get it now! Yay, thank you people for explaining this!

I'm going to rephrase what I understood in case I got something wrong. I will be using the "official" definition of the words "transgender" and "transsexual" because I don't know if there are any other words that mean the same thing as the official definition of "transgender".
Transgender people are transgender instead of transsexual because, while they've come to terms with their body, they intensely dislike/is really uncomfortable with the way society treats people of their perceived gender. So, assuming that some aliens suddenly came from outer space and zapped earth with some sort of mind-controlling beam that destroyed all stereotypes and made nobody assume anything based on perceived gender ever, transgender people would most likely not exist. Meanwhile, there would still be transsexual people.

Is this about right? Somebody please fix this if something is off because I don't want to go around with a wrong definition of things.

I would understand not getting it after reading the previous answer. I would get that completely. But wouldn't it be better to ask it differently to how it was previously asked, then? If you just ask it in the same exact way, how can you expect different or better results? The only reason I can see someone doing that is because either they didn't read the previous answer, or because they are insane. I didn't want to assume someone was insane, so I assumed they didn't read the previous answer.

:( I reposted it not because I didn't understand the answers, but because I was getting conflicting answers and nobody answered my second question when I tried to clarify... The first time I asked, the question got buried under some drama that ended up with the thread locked, and the second time I asked, it got buried under an argument about fat people...

I think the point about it being forced is that it really isn't a normal way to describe the way people grow up. Like Butterfree said, when it comes down to it among people maybe 5-10% of people don't identify as heterosexual. AT BEST. It is entirely relevant to show to children that different sexualities exist. It's another thing to give them an image that is completely disproportional to how reality really works. That's what's forced about it.

I think what Egalia is trying to do is not only to make people accept non-cis and non-straight people, but also to get rid of all gender stereotypes. Girls can play with giant robots and boys can play dressing-up, that that'd be totally alright. This has nothing to do with being queer or whatnot. It's just so that kids can do whatever they like without feeling pressure from society due to their chromosomes.

This is why I approve of it, really; I think gender stereotypes are ridiculous and need to go away forever. Since it's really ingrained into people's brains since their birth by society (see that relevant SMBC comic somebody posted), I think the best way to do it is to start from young e.g. with Egalia. Plus, parents who send their kids to a school that does that probably are doing similar things at home already. What Egalia is trying to accomplish is so that the kids won't be forced back into gender-roles etc when they go to school but can continue doing whatever they like even when their accepting parents aren't there. So instead of viewing Egalia as a place to make kids more tolerant, I think it's more of the other way around: Egalia is made so that parents who want to teach their kids to be tolerant can do so without the rest of society butting in. idk I think I'm phrasing this horribly and confusingly again :( I hope people can understand me....

Off topic, but that story about the two giraffes sounds adorable.

EDIT because I just thought of something:

And like I said: it starts with us, the people, the parents, taking responsibility for our children to be taught respect for other people and their differences. This is not a school's job. This is a parent's job, and unless the parents are completely unable to do any parenting, maybe then should a school step in and explain these things. But parents have responsibilities and a job to do and they are the first to be targeted, schools second, daycares third, and the rest last.

I think Egalia isn't to replace the first step; it's to make the second step possible.

 

[shy ♡]

I really think people just don't look things up because they don't know there's a thing to look up or how to. "how to be gender-sensitive" brings up junk, "transgender blogs" brings up some blogs that are by people who happen to be transgender but that don't seem to be particularly about how to be polite or anything, plus a post about how to cross-dress, "how to avoid gender stereo-types" is a bunch of articles about "it's okay for girls to play with trucks make sure to give your little girl lots of boy toys so she knows she can be whatever she wants not just a stereotype!!" and... well, I know those aren't the best searches, but I'm honestly not sure what else to look for. Are there some keywords I should use? Is there a better general style of phrasing searches that tends to be more helpful for that??

Hm. I started by wiking transgender, I know that. Then I moved onto ftm, mtf, the surgeries; but that was a long, long, long time ago. I'm not sure how I even remember that. Things I google tend to be not-questions and more vague, like 'ftm binding' or 'top surgery prices' or... idek... 'stomach aches binding'? (These are recent searches.) Eh... I think most gender things are inherently self-evident for me? More philosophical ones like the ones you listed. I'd never search 'can girls play with trucks' because yeah.

Also about triggering obviously it's fair to not want to be triggered but people just don't know how to avoid that sometimes yet ("how not to trigger people about gender" has some junk, a post where someone is really really offensive and icky and a different person quotes em and basically goes "shut up you're wrong" in all caps a bunch of times, which, though they're right that those things were bad and mean, doesn't help :c, and a thing on learning about gendered nouns in foreign languages...?). They should try their best, and they should pay attention when people tell them how to be nice (or how not to be a jerk), but sometimes they do that and still mess up! It's just tough for them!

I really don't feel like petting people after they've triggered me, honestly. If someone can't figure out that being offensive is offensive, I don't care to point it out to them. Someone else can. (Also often I am so triggered I just can't.) I'm not sure what you're talking about with gendered nouns, if you're talking to me...?

Crazy Linoone for example didn't ask in the best way at first, but ey tried really hard and eir question got a lot better!

That makes sense! I'm not sure why people are asking the same way when they've read the thread except that I guess they're not sure what other way there is to ask in? Although lots of people seem to give up really easily when they don't immediately get an answer they understand :c

I answered Linoone as much as I could. :\

The only problem I see with the Egalia Preschool idea is the fact that it is just a preschool. I'm perfectly fine with gender roles being eliminated, or at least having the boundaries between genders become a bit murkier (even though I'm cisgendered myself), but once the children leave the preschool and start in grade school, it won't be the same story. Seeing as they most likely will be spread out among many schools, they won't have many of the same people from the preschool around them. So when a boy goes and picks up a doll, sure, he might start some sort of Kindergarten revolution, but I think there's a good chance that the kids raised in households where gender roles are present will start teasing or bullying the kid. Why wouldn't they? He's a boy. He's playing with girl toys. They're five years old, I don't see many of them instantly understanding the situation that many members of our forum (including me, lots of the time) are in the dark about.

So, a good idea in theory, but I think it would need to be expanded outside of one preschool for the full effect.

You do realize most of what a person is is built when they're a child, right...?

Fair enough, but that is only one case (though there are probably more). That doesn't completely disprove children bullying other children for being different. In my personal experience, I could see some kids I went to kindergarten with accepting them fine, and others treating them simply as targets. It also brings up the fact that if the kids do accept the Egalia kids, then there is a high chance that the parents won't. The point I'm trying to make is you never know if other people will be accepting or discriminating in these situations.

I could give you a dozen anecdotes about how kids deal better with this than adults. More than a dozen. It's just how life works; and mostly, if kids aren't accepting, they're following an adult's lead (one they respect). If there were no adults in a situation where a trans person were introduced, I have zero doubt the kid would be totally fine with them.

I agree with you mostly, but the one problem I have with trying these things is the consequences if they don't work out. If the kids do end up getting bullied a lot, it's not like a normal experiment where you can just scrap it and move on. If it fails, you've ruined a fair bit of a person's life.

I'll say again, I'm perfectly fine with this idea. I support it actually. I just worry about what could happen in a worst-case scenario.

How is it any worse than not introducing it? Kids get bullied for the same shit now; at least with this program, someone's trying to stop that.

ETA @ Linoone: That point wasn't at you! :[