Gender

[Ether's Bane]

I think that they don't, and I happen to not be cisgender! Why do they sound degrading to you? What about avoiding ambiguity, where using they/their/them sounds like the person described has a gender unknown to the speaker, when really they just don't use gendered pronouns! Surely it's more ~degrading~ to be referred to something you either entirely resist or with the 'other' pronoun?

Wait, are you guys saying that you'd use 'they' by default, or that you wouldn't use other pronouns if someone asked you to? I can understand not referring to someone you don't know as ey when you can just use they, but it seems kind of horrible to refuse to use a pronoun if someone asks for it!

I mean that I'd use "they" by default, but I would have no problem with using other pronouns if the other person prefers it.

Basically the following:

I myself wouldn't ever use them but if someone likes to go by any I will respect that and use whatever pronouns they want.

 

[Jason-Kun]

Male, cisgender. And while I don't agree with gender roles I don't think it's important enough to separate sex and gender into two separate things. To each their own though.

 

[ultraviolet]

yay we're having discussion ^_____^

The stuff at the top is so we a) don't go around in circles defining our terms, b) so people can enter the discussion without offending anyone (like when that one person tried to describe themselves as cisgender without knowing cisgender was a word) and c) so it doesn't slow down discussion when people correct other people and whatnot. It's not meant to put anyone in a box or say 'you are this' and honestly it's nice to see people are questioning it and stuff. If we could come to a consensus about various things mean I think it'd be really fantastic and would further the discussion a lot! So please, if you have a problem with anything, please suggest something!

I wanted a discussion about gender but unfortunately I am not as well-learnt in these topics as I'd like to be (hence, discussion).

ETA: And another thing: where does the clear distinction between male/female (sexes) and man/woman (genders) come from? I've never seen it outside this forum, and I've just asked my (social anthropologist) sister about it, and she was confused too.

I thought it important to include in because I've seen at least a few cases where someone's gone 'Male and Female are sexes, not genders' and gotten a bit annoyed, so I thought I should include it so it doesn't happen again. Male and Female vs. Man and Woman seems like a really convenient way to talk about sex vs. gender, so. I've always thought there's a difference between saying 'I'm female' and 'I'm a girl/woman', so. Like, animals can be female, but they can't be girls or women because that's more an identity thing. I feel like that's a difference worth addressing, anyway!

wait
what
a hell of a lot of people reject the gender roles associated with their sex, but surely that doesn't make them genderqueer?? I thought genderqueer was identifying as a gender outside the binary

Actually I don't know how I got to that. I'll revise it; genderqueer really should have its own thingy rather than being lumped with transgender where it doesn't exactly make sense. If you've got a suggestion, let me know!

Honestly, I'm not sure where that one came from. It actually sort of bugs me because it feels like it's separating cis from trans people. I mean, I know it's the case that it is separated, but I tend to just, ignore it, because it bugs me.

I suppose it does, but I mean it's not exactly like it places cisgenderism as normal and transgenderism as different (if it comes across that way, it's not my intention). Some people are comfortable with their biological sex and others aren't, but they're all equally valid things to be, and that's what I'm trying to get across.

 

[Zero Moment]

I'd like to know the difference be tween transgender and transsexual?

From what I've read, both are when an individual identifies themself as a gender differing from their "assigned sex."
It doesn't make sense to me that there would be two words that mean the exact same thing, so their must be some difference between the two.

 

[opaltiger]

Okay - I was more saying, 'because you grew up with it' is a sort of ridiculous reason, especially for you. Because you don't care is a different reason.

Well, they're both reasons. I don't care about gender, so I can't use that as a method of choosing pronouns - therefore I need a different one, and "because I grew up with them" is as good a reason as any, given that I've already stated I don't care about gender.

Actually you said this: "I don't understand what it means to be male or female outside of the context of gender roles, but because I don't hold with the idea of gender roles, I'm left with the feeling that gender doesn't really mean anything."

Meaning you cannot separate the two and because you do not believe in gender roles then you are left balking at gender in general. That isn't exactly what you're saying now.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to state that as my conclusive opinion; it was more a line of thought I wasn't satisfied with. I realise gender identity and gender roles are different, but I don't, personally, see how. That's why I asked, because I didn't think "gender doesn't mean anything" was a satisfactory conclusion without at least further thought.

I don't understand why gender identity and gender roles have to be interconnected. Gender identity would be tied to sex. Connection to gender roles is societal; gender identity is just, it's just who you are. Honestly, if we got rid of gender roles, we'd still have gender because we still have bodies.

Well, I did specifically direct my question to people who do think gender identity is societal because then, at least in part, gender roles must play a part in gender identity, simply because, as you say, gender roles are societal. What do you mean when you say gender identity would be tied to sex?

I'd like to know the difference be tween transgender and transsexual?

The difference I've heard most often is that a transsexual feels uncomfortable with eir birth sex and thus would generally be interested in sex reassignment surgery, whereas a transgender person is comfortable with eir sex and simply identifies as the opposite gender. I'm not sure how prevalent this is, though.

 

[ultraviolet]

I was simply saying confusion and debates need not happen if the terminology and reasoning were simple.

honestly I'm not sure how much more simple anyone can make it if showing you the terms and telling you what they mean isn't simple enough. :o I'm trying very hard to make things easy for people entering the discussion!

Male, cisgender. And while I don't agree with gender roles I don't think it's important enough to separate sex and gender into two separate things. To each their own though.

well, for someone cisgendered it is kind of hard to differentiate sex and gender, but consider that some people are trapped in a biological sex that they feel isn't theirs (which is where you get gender dysphoria). It's actually, really, really important that they are differentiated so that people who do struggle with this get attention and get recognised. It's so much worse when you have to deal with these things and people don't want to recognise it.

 

[Phantom]

honestly I'm not sure how much more simple anyone can make it if showing you the terms and telling you what they mean isn't simple enough. :o I'm trying very hard to make things easy for people entering the discussion!

I do understand!

Did ANYONE read my post and understand it?

I was ranting that I've seen people almost literally chew someone's head off because of how they referred to someone. Seriously, that's what I was saying. Not everyone has a little list in front of them telling them what to say! I've seen it on sooo many forums, including TCoD where people make such a big deal about these things. You are who you are, if you have a preference just damn say it and be done with it, that's what I was saying.

Also a lot of people are under the impression this is a debate thread, when it was apparently intended to be a discussion.

 

[octobr]

I'd like to know the difference be tween transgender and transsexual?

From what I've read, both are when an individual identifies themself as a gender differing from their "assigned sex."
It doesn't make sense to me that there would be two words that mean the exact same thing, so their must be some difference between the two.

You know, this is an interesting question.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of interpretations have it that transgender is the umbrella term whereas transsexual/transexual refers to just the people who go to lengths to have their physical appearance match their gender identity? Personally I think that's silly. I don't see transsexual used as a term very often at all anymore ... I think it's falling out of use.

 

[Phantom]

Posting to make a point, anyone remember this thread? It helps explain my point. Also Jolty said a quote somewhere that made me happy. I must find that.

 

[opaltiger]

Also a lot of people are under the impression this is a debate thread, when it was apparently intended to be a discussion.

I'm interested to know how exactly you define 'debate' and 'discussion', because this thread seems like an excellent discussion to me so far.

 

[Phantom]

You realize these debates don't exist for you. Right?

Also a lot of people are under the impression this is a debate thread, when it was apparently intended to be a discussion.

Hmm, maybe "a lot" was a wrong phrase for that.

 

[Jason-Kun]

well, for someone cisgendered it is kind of hard to differentiate sex and gender, but consider that some people are trapped in a biological sex that they feel isn't theirs (which is where you get gender dysphoria). It's actually, really, really important that they are differentiated so that people who do struggle with this get attention and get recognised. It's so much worse when you have to deal with these things and people don't want to recognise it.

I get that, but if you ignore gender roles then there's really no point in separating the two.

 

[ultraviolet]

a debate is a discussion, so um. just because debates at TCoD tend to devolve into 'I'M TALKING LOUDER THAN YOU SO I WIN' doesn't mean that they have to! Things are going quite well so far!

 

[shy ♡]

I suppose it does, but I mean it's not exactly like it places cisgenderism as normal and transgenderism as different (if it comes across that way, it's not my intention). Some people are comfortable with their biological sex and others aren't, but they're all equally valid things to be, and that's what I'm trying to get across.

It's not a better or worse thing. It's just separation that bugs me. I don't want to be separated. Especially when male is the most commonly-used term; like, if you're filling out an application, it doesn't say are you a dude or a lady , it says male or female. I choose male because I am male.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to state that as my conclusive opinion; it was more a line of thought I wasn't satisfied with. I realise gender identity and gender roles are different, but I don't, personally, see how. That's why I asked, because I didn't think "gender doesn't mean anything" was a satisfactory conclusion without at least further thought.

I can't explain how they're different without seeing how they're the same. I mean, in what context are they the same?

Well, I did specifically direct my question to people who do think gender identity is societal because then, at least in part, gender roles must play a part in gender identity, simply because, as you say, gender roles are societal. What do you mean when you say gender identity would be tied to sex?

I mean that, to a certain extent, people are male-bodied and female-bodied, and obviously there are those that do not fit those categories. But there will always be people who are male-bodied and female-bodied, and that creates gender; like how can you have a sex without thinking about it at all? Someone would eventually realize hey, I'm female. Or male. Or agender or gender-neutral or something. Because it works with or against their body.

Also re: transexual/transgender, it is mostly just a personal preference, however some people prefer transexual because they are changing their sex and not their gender. I prefer transgender just because I prefer how it sounds, but I don't particularly mind either.

The official meaning is that transgender is when do not identify with the gender assigned to you at birth but you are, at least for now, not transitioning physically. Transexual means you are transitioning physically. But again, the working definition is just personal preference.

ETA: Can I just add, I know it's really nitpicky of me but it really bugs me when people say 'transgendered' or 'cisgendered'. It's just a huge pet peeve. :[ Please please please stop.

 

[Phantom]

a debate is a discussion, so um. just because debates at TCoD tend to devolve into 'I'M TALKING LOUDER THAN YOU SO I WIN' doesn't mean that they have to! Things are going quite well so far!

Haha agreed! Though I think it's less 'I'M TALKING LOUDER THAN YOU SO I WIN' it's 'I WROTE A BIGGER POST SO I'M RIGHT!'.

Please no ninja please no ninja

Also there have been sooo many discussions about this, is it possible to find and merge them/mention them in the OP or something?

 

[octobr]

7ETA: Can I just add, I know it's really nitpicky of me but it really bugs me when people say 'transgendered' or 'cisgendered'. It's just a huge pet peeve. :[ Please please please stop.

Ah, yes, I agree! Adding the -ed makes it sort of a verb and like it's something that ~happened~ to you which is just silly I mean we're not maled or femaled are we so I share your pet peeve!

 

[ultraviolet]

Haha agreed! Though I think it's less 'I'M TALKING LOUDER THAN YOU SO I WIN' it's 'I WROTE A BIGGER POST SO I'M RIGHT!'.

Well I hardly think people writing long posts is a bad thing; I want there to be discussion and if people are going to write long posts, that's a good thing.

Also there have been sooo many discussions about this, is it possible to find and merge them/mention them in the OP or something?

Several of the larger/more important ones are linked in the OP, but I'm not going to link every single gender/sexuality thread; that's why we have tags.

 

[Hiikaru]

I've never seen it as "anyone who is not-cis". o.o Simply from etymology, if you're cis your sex should match your gender and if you're trans your sex should be the opposite of your gender. Since there are (to the first approximation) only two sexes, that kind of excludes non-binary identities by definition.

ETA: Okay, Cirrus informs me transgender is used more generally by some people. I think that's silly, because a) it's redundant and b) there is a meaningful distinction between "I am in the gender binary and my gender doesn't match my sex" and "I am outside the gender binary and my gender doesn't match my sex". The former is covered by the term transgender, the latter isn't, in my opinion.

Right! I was really confused when I first saw it - I think it would be good if the term transgender stayed in the binary and then there could be a new term? I guess the term also wouldn't be "genderqueer" because I guess that means a lot more than just "not-cis"!

(lots of says)

People are interested in talking about it, so that's okay! It seems like what you really want is a Quiltbag-related-terms dictionary instead of a discussion? If you don't really want there to be a dicussion, maybe you could find a resource that's more like a dictionary or maybe only post if you have a question! Just because you don't think it's very interesting to talk about and doesn't need any other details besides "can I be called this pronoun thank you!" doesn't mean other people aren't enjoying talking about it, and it's okay for them to do that!

I definitely agree that it's not okay to attack others (and you're right that that happens on tcod and everywhere way way more than it should), but talking doesn't have to be the same as attacking! And it should be simple and it would be nice if everyone could just explain it simply for the people who only want that, but again, people are having fun talking about it and if you don't want to talk about it with them you'd probably like being somewhere else more! Or if you're not happy with a member who you feel like is attacking you, maybe you could try talking to someone who seems less like they'd do that if you do want to talk?

Also, I think it would be nice if you could not imply that long posts are automatically bad and angry? I wrote two thousand words because writing short posts is really really tough for me and makes me feel bad and because I wanted to say lots of things, not because I wanted to yell at everyone for a while!

It is important, but itsn't relevant so much in discussions like this when the answer doesn't bring anything.

But! People are curious, and if someone wants to try and explain, isn't it okay for that part of the discussion to happen? If you don't want to explain it, that's okay! But maybe someone else wants to! It's supposed to be a discussion about all the things about gender, not a discussion about gender minus this part, so it seems fine if people talk about it! Like uv said, the reason for the thread is that people talk about parts of gender in lots of other threads. So this is where they can talk if it doesn't belong in a particular thread!

Nooo. I don't believe in the reason given. Because they grew up with it. If it's because they don't feel uncomfortable with it, fine. If they don't want to go through the hassle, fine. All of those together, sure. But because they grew up with it is always a copout.

Not a copout! People saying that aren't really saying "this is okay because I grew up with it" they're saying "this pronoun already exists for me [and it happens to exist for me because I had it while growing up], and I don't mind, so I'll just keep it." Lots of things that people "grew up with" are things that they should absolutely rethink and make their own decision about, but can you see how this isn't quite the same as like religion or mean views? Those are important for most people! Pronouns are almost zero important for the people saying they'll just keep the one they grew up with since they don't mind!

I mean - female/male is cis only. That makes me feel uncomfortable, like, why...? For example my therapist asked me my gender once and I said male and she said male is cis-only. And I'm like ... what, what is the point of that. It's just, seems like a way of separating the two that doesn't have to exist.

It's not a better or worse thing. It's just separation that bugs me. I don't want to be separated. Especially when male is the most commonly-used term; like, if you're filling out an application, it doesn't say are you a dude or a lady , it says male or female. I choose male because I am male.

Oh, that makes sense! I think there should be a way to say "this person was born this way" and "this person feels this way" so that people can talk about it and explain things, but if people feel like they definitely feel like they identify as female or male as opposed to just identifying as a guy or as a girl, that's kind of an unhelpful way! What do you think of people specifying "biologically male/female" when they talk about sex? Or talked about chromosomes, maybe.

Also that it's the most commonly used for forms and things is a valid point and I guess there's kind of nothing to do about it except for every form to be changed (which should already happen!).

The thing is for this argument I find the whole 'cisgender' thing derogatory toward none trans people.

But why? It isn't "the whole cisgender thing" no one is being mean to cisgender people or attacking them or saying they're any worse! It's just a word that means you're okay with your sex and everything, and it's okay to be okay with that, and it's okay to have a word that means that! It's a cute-sounding word, it doesn't have any existing bad feelings or meanings, and it's not used to be mean, just to explain! The only alternative people suggest to the best of my knowledge is to say "not trans", but that makes people uncomfortable, and also ignores all the people who are not cisgender or trans. I guess saying "not-cis" seems like it would be the same, only, it's kind of hard to suggest that cis people are bad or abnormal or wrong when the majority of people are that and when pretty much no one has a problem with cisgender people existing? It's just a word for people to talk. There are no mean feelings with it!

ETA: Can I just add, I know it's really nitpicky of me but it really bugs me when people say 'transgendered' or 'cisgendered'. It's just a huge pet peeve. :[ Please please please stop.

I changed all the instances of "cisgendered" in this post!! (I already didn't use the other one) I'll definitely try not to do that! Also, I've seen it said that it implies that it's something that happened to people? Do people actually use it that way or is there mean stuff about it or is it just preferable to not do it? (I'll definitely try to not regardless, but, curious!)

 

[shy ♡]

Right! I was really confused when I first saw it - I think it would be good if the term transgender stayed in the binary and then there could be a new term? I guess the term also wouldn't be "genderqueer" because I guess that means a lot more than just "not-cis"!

Trans* includes non-binary.

People are interested in talking about it, so that's okay! It seems like what you really want is a Quiltbag-related-terms dictionary instead of a discussion? If you don't really want there to be a dicussion, maybe you could find a resource that's more like a dictionary or maybe only post if you have a question! Just because you don't think it's very interesting to talk about and doesn't need any other details besides "can I be called this pronoun thank you!" doesn't mean other people aren't enjoying talking about it, and it's okay for them to do that!

Oh I'm up for discussion about it, but I don't think it's relevant to this discussion. Meaning, discussion about what gender has to do with gender roles, etc.

Not a copout! People saying that aren't really saying "this is okay because I grew up with it" they're saying "this pronoun already exists for me [and it happens to exist for me because I had it while growing up], and I don't mind, so I'll just keep it." Lots of things that people "grew up with" are things that they should absolutely rethink and make their own decision about, but can you see how this isn't quite the same as like religion or mean views? Those are important for most people! Pronouns are almost zero important for the people saying they'll just keep the one they grew up with since they don't mind!

Yes. But then the key thing is that it isn't important to them. Or that they're comfortable with it. Not that they grew up with it.

Oh, that makes sense! I think there should be a way to say "this person was born this way" and "this person feels this way" so that people can talk about it and explain things, but if people feel like they definitely feel like they identify as female or male as opposed to just identifying as a guy or as a girl, that's kind of an unhelpful way! What do you think of people specifying "biologically male/female" when they talk about sex? Or talked about chromosomes, maybe.

Also that it's the most commonly used for forms and things is a valid point and I guess there's kind of nothing to do about it except for every form to be changed (which should already happen!).

Er, what do you mean by... definitely feel they identify as male or female as opposed to as a guy or a girl? It's the same thing.

Specifying biologically male/female bothers me simply because some people don't feel biologically male/female, i.e. trans male that does not want to transition (or does, even) because he feels his body is male because it belongs to a male person. Then it gets difficult to talk about the issue, so a suggested term was anatomically male/female, idk if that's really better. FAAB/MAAB work as well, or just cis male/female.

I changed all the instances of "cisgendered" in this post!! (I already didn't use the other one) I'll definitely try not to do that! Also, I've seen it said that it implies that it's something that happened to people? Do people actually use it that way or is there mean stuff about it or is it just preferable to not do it? (I'll definitely try to not regardless, but, curious!)

People do use it that way, yeah. It's more that the word just irritates me because it makes no sense and is ridiculous and arhg. :[

 

[Saith]

Honestly guys?
If you really care enough about gender to actually learn, you might as well read Whipping Girl.
Hell, no, you should read Whipping Girl.
It's a non-sensational study on gender written by a trans gendered woman. Who is also a Biologist.
It isn't a shitty biography culminating in sex-changes and finally being taken as a woman or whatever the fuck, it's... Similar, kind of, to Richard Dawkins' books, in that it's an informal discussion on certain topics.
The author goes on about her experiences, the science behind certain aspects, and though it's mainly her own opinion, it's still a great book to read if you're interested in the subject. Especially if you think you yourself maybe be trans-gendered.

As for being trans? Well it's kind of shitty. I don't feel all that much disphoria, so I'm not as worse off as a lot of people, but it's still rather uncomfortable.
Being male feels like... Well, when I used to be chubby. It was me, but it wasn't quite me. I had low self-esteem, I hated my body, I was weak and tired, but one day I hit the gym and it all worked out.
It feels the same, now. I'm me, but not the me I should be. I'm almost me, like a reflection in a spoon. It's me, I can tell it's me, I share all the same features as me... And yet it's distorted. I'm distorted.
But uh, yeah.

Also, if you're curious, there's a thread over at SomethingAwful to help with these issues.