Gender

[Saith]

Eh, the question marks made it more offensive than the language?
It was somehow written in a valley-girl accent? Like this? Where everything you say sounds like a question? And you make the last word rise in pitch?

Oh god, now I can't stop doing it?

 

[Arylett Charnoa]

No.

I don't know what it is that blinds you people to being obviously angry and a jerk. Because that is no way to treat people, I am sorry. Regardless of whether you can't see my face and this is the internet, I do not expect people to talk to me like that ever. Maybe it's your little clique that makes you bias. I may have wrongly worded a few things, but I did not use curse words against anyone and I certainly was not condescending. I did not talk in a valley girl pitch. This is my last post in TCoD, and in this thread, so I am going to make it count.

She was sarcastic in her post, I was not. She condescended me, I did not. And I know she is never going to apologize, and nobody is ever going to agree with me. And I know you all talk about me behind my back, and that's why you like to attack me so. Too bad you can't say it to my face. You're all talking about this, right now in your little chat. And I know you were a few days ago, attacking my Tumblr and a heartfelt post I made. How great of all of you.

This is part of the reason why you are all being so mean to me; I'm not part of your clique, I never was and I never will be. Maybe if it was somebody else besides me making the point, you might be a little less mean about it. Maybe somebody part of your own clique? If not, you just jump all over everybody.

Yes Opal, I see your post. And I thought you made some good points. I acknowledge that you were civil, and I thank you for that but I have nothing more to say on this matter because I am leaving. I concede that you are the better debater than I, even though I still disagree. I literally am left speechless at your post, and I am sorry if I offended anybody with my post. I was just trying to say how I felt for once. Because I still think all of this gender stuff is sort of ridiculous and you still CANNOT deny the fact that a thread was locked over it because it got out of hand.

So TCoD, goodbye. I mean, there were a lot of things and memories I liked about this place. But after this? I can't take all of the stress and meaness of the mods, and Cirrus' post has made me feel so offended and condescended that I just have no words for how much of an asshole she was being. I am sick of you people and your dislike of me, and I know this pertains partially to my opinion and being offended by it, but come on. Let us admit it.

I'll catch you all on the flipside. So long.

It's been awesomenocity.

 

[surskitty]

Because I still think all of this gender stuff is sort of ridiculous and you still CANNOT deny the fact that a thread was locked over it because it got out of hand.

I'm not touching most of this, but um. Last I checked? The thread about not putting things in the pronoun field that are not pronouns got locked because people kept posting in it without contributing anything of import. Not that there was much to say about it, anyway, given that it is very simple: pronouns go in the pronoun field. Not your favourite animal, not whatever joke you want to make, pronouns. I'm still not sure why this was an issue.



I'm not bothered when people refer to me as 'she', but I much prefer people using e/eir/em for me, and I freak out for hours if it's clear that someone is actually thinking of me as a woman. The pronoun itself doesn't bother me personally, but I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that the pronoun I'm referred to with actually, like, influences how people think of me.

 

[Tarvos]

Arylett, advice from someone who keeps out of the gender discussions because he thinks they're a pointless waste of time - if people want to be referred to as spongecake, they certainly have the right to think they're of the gender spongecake and be referred to it as such - but it doesn't stop me stifling a little snigger while they ask for it (because people want to be called the strangest things and I'd rather have them thinking about it in a way that makes sense and isn't out to show yourself as a Special Snowflake) - you're being an idiot.

Here's the thing - people sometimes don't fit into the gender binary. That's ok. You always have exceptions to the rule. They could not care - they could make a stand for the gender rights of people who aren't actually cisgender male or female. They're a rare goddamn minority, too - so yeah, they are outcasts in a social sense, we all are (just like you're an involuntary outcast if you have Asperger's, low functioning autism, wear glasses, or do that thing where you pick your nose and then eat it). But they are still humans. No matter how ridiculous we find it that people think they have the identity of a fish or a spongecake or an intergender person or no matter how much we are unfamiliar with how the hell their brains operate (and you won't find me venturing a guess), they're still human beings, meaning they are accorded the same amount of respect as anyone else. BECAUSE THEY ARE HUMAN. This means you address people as they would like to be addressed, because that is good form. You don't address someone with "vous" in french either if they've asked to be called "tu" either. It's irritating and impolite. If you don't give a shit about what gender people are or think it's a show that's taking place a long long way from your bed, welcome to the goddamn club - I'll have you know most people here are and I'll tell you I've NEVER EVEN MET a transgendered person. A gay is the most "strange" thing I've seen. Yeah, it all seems a little outlandish to have an extravagant rainbow colour when all you've been staring at is concrete. But honestly, they probably feel the same way about things you do. Everyone's outlandish in some way or another, they just happen to be with regards to the way their bodies and behaviour align.

To find a way to address people who can't be provided for using the he/she model is an arduous task because language development came along in a time where that idea was not really accepted yet, and honestly I find most of the ideas preposterous too. But just do the world a goddamn favour and address people as they want to be addressed and save yourself a whole heap of trouble. It's a can of worms you don't need to open and it's a whole lot more polite than I can say of most other people that don't have a fucking clue about intergender people and spongecake people. I certainly don't, I am a straight cisgendered male who likes women!

You don't get to come into this thread demanding basic respect when you don't show that to anybody else. Maybe the mods' reactions are disproportionate and I wouldn't know and I don't give a fuck because I don't frequent the IRC. I show up and am irritating occasionally - we all know that. But what I do know is that there's no need to step on anybody's toes by demanding people conform to an obviously flawed system that doesn't address their needs just because you can't step outside some arbitrary mental border.

And I am goddamn positive no one is ganging up on you because you have a difference of opinion. They're ganging up because you're failing to show a basic good human trait and that is respect for other people. I doubt we're all in agreement on gender and honestly I find things preposterous too that I read or see or hear and I too find it more comfortable and convenient to use a he/she model. But sometimes the system is broke and you gotta fix it. So let people who have their differences be and at least discuss those elements of gender that can be discussed and don't go ragtag because your arbitrary standards aren't adhered to.

 

[bulbasaur]

Is it just me who notices the irony in this? This argument (discussion) is about a matter that has the consequences of making people "...freak out for hours...". In arguing eir (is that how to use the pronoun?) points, Cirrus were being condescending (intentionally or not) and showing a deficiency of respect. This made Arylett worse off than what Viki described. Sure, she made a triggering and ignorant post, but Cirrus' response (and especially Saith's mockery) honestly wasn't much better.

 

[Ether's Bane]

Is it just me who notices the irony in this? This argument (discussion) is about a matter that has the consequences of making people "...freak out for hours...". In arguing eir (is that how to use the pronoun?) points, Cirrus were being condescending (intentionally or not) and showing a deficiency of respect. This made Arylett worse off than what Viki described. Sure, she made a triggering and ignorant post, but Cirrus' response (and especially Saith's mockery) honestly wasn't much better.

Spoilered for possible shitstorm-inducing.

Although I agree that Cirrus' response was completely uncalled for, I do think that Arylett's response to Cirrus' backlash was (and I won't mince my words here) petulant and bordering on childish. I think she should know better - this is an extremely liberal forum with many non-cis members, and to boot, all the well-established, "big-wig" members are even MORE liberal than the average TCoD member (and yes, that's actually possible), so she should have expected a backlash, as our few conservative members who have dared to challenge the forum's big names in terms of viewpoint have found out. Even if you were the most skilled conservative debater in the world, you would not survive a TCoD debate, as the "celebrity" members here have reputation as well as strength in numbers, something Arylett should have taken notice of and responded to accordingly.

Having said that, I also think that Cirrus should not have responded in that way. Yes, things are hard for non-cisgendered people, and I understand and accept that. Still, that's no reason to flip out like that. I can also see where Arylett is coming from on this one, because I felt that Cirrus seemed very harsh and condescending in that post. As someone who has in the past decried such an attitude from other members of note, I would never have expected this response from eir (<------ SEE THAT? SEE THAT?!), and I think that it was completely the wrong way to go about countering Arylett's statement - to me, it came across as sounding abrasive and almost self-righteous. I agree with her post on multiple points, but the general air that I got off that post was... less than impressive. Sorry, but if everyone else can state their opinion, so will I.

And that's my $0.02.

 

[Negrek]

This is fast becoming a debate about other members' behavior rather than about gender, so I think I'll lock it for now, and someone else can reopen it if they think they can wrench things back on-topic.

 

[Aisling]

I just wanted to walk in and say, from the perspective of someone who hasn't really been following this thread all that closely until just now

1) I'm not in the "TCoD clique" and I never have been, so don't even go there, anybody. You don't have to be on IRC all the time or post in the debate forums all the time to be treated like a person here. If you feel like you're being discriminated against and you wish they could "say it to your face", how about you PM a mod and politely inquire about it, instead of letting it fester because you "just know" and then dropping the bomb like that. You would get an honest and polite reply, and if you didn't, I would have something to say about it. (I mean, I get along with everyone I think, but I don't visit IRC much, hell I don't even post all that much lately, so I'm not going to pretend to be in the in-crowd that is being referred to)

2) We don't put down people for just having more conservative views. Usually their conservatism goes hand-in-hand with not having well-made arguments or just lacking the tact desired in a forum such as this, and that is just unfortunate. But infractions are given as objectively as possible, only when appropriate, not just because the mods disagree. We don't just oust dissenting opinions like that and I resent the implication that we do.

Now let's stop this he-said-she-said bullshit and get back on topic, alright guys? I want that to be the final word on this (unless another mod/min overturns this or wants to add something else, urgh I usually don't make posts like this, I'm sorry for being so wishy-washy) In the future please keep in mind who is going to be reading what you are saying, and consider how they might feel about it, and whether or not you are being respectful, as respectful and civil are not necessarily the same thing.

...hnnng Negrek posted while I was writing this. Okay: I vote we just ignore everything between post 56 and 69 of this thread, and attempt to continue the discussion as before. Don't quote them, don't refer to them. I'm kinda shaky on hiding the offending posts themselves, since I know if I hadn't seen them I'd want to know what just happened- I'm saying don't make any further mention of it. Alright guys?

 

[opaltiger]

Thank you, Alraune. If I might make a further point:

In the future please keep in mind who is going to be reading what you are saying, and consider how they might feel about it, and whether or not you are being respectful, as respectful and civil are not necessarily the same thing.

As a general rule in this forum, using swear words does not automatically make a post uncivil. I don't see what's wrong with using the word 'fuck' for emphasis. I genuinely have no idea what, exactly, people are finding condescending about Cirrus' post. There is a difference between being condescending and explaining things to someone who isn't aware of them. The tone was annoyed, sure, but not condescending or disrespectful - or at least, nowhere near as disrespectful as Arylett's first post was.

I guess what I want to say is, let's all try and actually read what is being said rather than focus on the fact that someone decided that using swear words as emphasis was necessary to get a point across.

And that is truly the last post on this topic. Carry on, everyone.

 

[Crazy Linoone]

In an attempt to go back on topic, I will rephrase and repost my question which kinda got drowned in all the drama.

I understand that gender identity is important to a lot of people. What I don't understand is why. This could be because I view gender as a completely socially induced thing. Thus, I'm trying to clarify the whole concept of gender so I can actually understand it.

So a question for everyone: Do you think that gender is a completely socially induced thing?

 

[goldenquagsire]

On a slightly less volatile note, what's the meaning behind the asterisk in 'trans*'? It's rather confusing, like there's meant to be a footnote at the end of the post.

 

[surskitty]

Because there are a lot of related identities that start with 'trans' and it's easier to use a wildcard than to try to list everything.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

I'm only going to weigh on this debate a little because my very limited access to an Internet connection of even average speed on a computer of even average speed means that I can't really participate to the extent that I used to before my laptop went kaput. That means if I raise a point someone disagrees with, I might not be able to respond to it and I apologise in advance if that's the case.

I am 100% cisgender, so I won't be so arrogant to claim that I understand the issues that non-cisgender people (I think that's an okay blanket term for the people I'm referring to) have to face. However, I understand being discriminated against due to inherent traits, so I like to think I have something to say on this topic.

For some people, being overweight is an inherent trait. I know a whole family with a hereditary glandular disorder and three generations of women in that family are and will be overweight for their entire lives. That's just not up for change. If you called any of them "fat", they would be made to feel uncomfortable. That's why, in general, it is not socially acceptable to call overweight people "fat".

For non-cisgender people, not being cisgender is an inherent trait. I don't personally know any non-cisgender people except for people I've encountered via the Internet, but for non-cisgender people, they will be non-cisgender for their entire lives. That's not up for change. If you referred to them using a pronoun appropriate for a cisgender person of their sex, they would be made to feel uncomfortable. In the same vein as the family with the hereditary glandular disorder, it should not be socially acceptable to call non-cisgender people by pronouns appropriate for cisgender people of their sex.

Of course, the analogies aren't perfect (being overweight is something to be avoided due to health concerns, while identifying with your own gender is not, among other things), but I've had a bit of a writing burnout today, so bear with me.

So, in the same you shouldn't call overweight people "fat", you shouldn't refer to non-cisgender people as if they were cisgender. But people do and the people who do, when called out on it, do not tend to be remorseful and do not tend to change their ways (though, of course, there are some people who are nice enough to do that). The people who refuse to change tend to cite "freedom of speech" and complain about "political correctness". These people, who are apparently civic-minded enough that they are aware of their right to freedom of speech, have forgotten that rights are a double-sided coin.

All rights come with responsibilities. There are lots of things you can do but that doesn't mean you should do them. You have every right to tell rape jokes but you shouldn't because they trivialise rape and make the majority of rape victims feel uncomfortable. You have every right to call overweight people fat but you shouldn't because it damages their already low self-esteem and makes the majority of overweight people feel uncomfortable. You have every right to refer to non-cisgender people as if they were cisgender but you shouldn't because it perpetuates the troubles they have to suffer in our intolerant soceity and makes the majority of non-cisgender people feel uncomfortable.

The whole problem here, and a lot of problems besides, boils down to the fact that people have substituted a set of entitlements for a moral code. Exercising your rights as an individual is only morally neutral in the abstract. Using your rights to make other people feel comfortable and included is a morally righteous act. Abusing your rights to make other people feel uncomfortable and excluded is a morally wrong act. You have a right to not change the way you do things to make other people feel comfortable and included but that doesn't mean you should refuse to change. The line between those who exercise their rights and those who exercise their rights and observe their responsibilities is a thin one but it's the line between being a morally upright person and being a dick. Now, really, who wants to be a dick?

 

[Saith]

For some people, being overweight is an inherent trait. I know a whole family with a hereditary glandular disorder and three generations of women in that family are and will be overweight for their entire lives. That's just not up for change. If you called any of them "fat", they would be made to feel uncomfortable. That's why, in general, it is not socially acceptable to call overweight people "fat".

I agree with everything you said, except this. :)

 

[Jolty]

So, in the same you shouldn't call overweight people "fat", you shouldn't refer to non-cisgender people as if they were cisgender.

dude no that's the point, we WANT people to think of us as cisgender.
unless you mean don't refer to trans people as the gender they were assigned at birth?? your wording confused me a bit :(

I agree with everything you said, except this. :)

why?

 

[Saith]

dude no that's the point, we WANT people to think of us as cisgender.
unless you mean don't refer to trans people as the gender they were assigned at birth?? your wording confused me a bit :(

Yeah, he's saying 'don't be a dick and call a trans-chick 'sir'.'

why?

I just don't believe in genetic fatness. No deep meaning behind it.

 

[hopeandjoy]

Well, I don't know about genetic fatness in humans, but it does exist in dogs. One of my dogs ballooned after he was a puppy and even though we feed him a cup and a half of diet food a day with the only treats we give him being vegtables, 8 years later, he's still obese.

That said, TES was just saying is rude to call trans* people by their birth sex.

 

[Adriane]

I just don't believe in genetic fatness. No deep meaning behind it.

... er? That's kind of like saying you don't believe the Earth is round.

 

[Jolty]

I just don't believe in genetic fatness. No deep meaning behind it.

so literally everyone who is fat is a lazy over-eater then?

 

[Saith]

Pretty much, yeah.
I don't understand why you're all opposed to that?