Gender

[Minish]

and since it's high school exams
does it really matter

Yeeeep!
Really, the idea that seeing this kind of thing constantly all day forever builds up into shitty feelings is new to you??

like, I'd understand if you were saying this about something non-important! but uh pretty much a whole lot of trans* people go through high school! (it's still going to be a frustrating people for surely even binary trans folks because you have to work out what they want to hear vs what you actually are/whether you can say what you are without complications etc. etc. etc. forever)


This kind of thing is sort of... not really a thing most non-binary people are going to bother to get angry at though, tbh. It's noooot exactly an uncommon experience in daily life. The male/female guardian thing is super-weird though, I'm pretty surprised. I'd say you could probably get it changed if you went up to them and were like um hi I have two dads sooooo... or got someone who legitimately does (or two mums!) to, it's the kind of thing they tend to pay attention to now.

 

[Music Dragon]

they probably only care because of statistics. like if boys or girls do better in certain exams which is bollocks imo anyway but yeah it's possible.

Why is it bollocks, though? I wouldn't be surprised at all if boys do better than girls in certain exams. The ways we're affected by gender roles and stereotypes aren't always readily apparent. I read an article once where they had boys and girls do a maths test and compared the results. In the first version of the experiment, they simply handed out the test, had everyone complete it and collected the results; boys and girls performed about equally well. In the second version, the subjects were specifically told that the purpose of the test was to determine whether boys were better than girls at maths; apparently this resulted in girls performing worse than boys. Quite interesting. Wish I could remember the source. In any case, gender-related statistics could surely be useful and enlightening in the right context.

 

[Minish]

Why is it bollocks, though? I wouldn't be surprised at all if boys do better than girls in certain exams. The ways we're affected by gender roles and stereotypes aren't always readily apparent. I read an article once where they had boys and girls do a maths test and compared the results. In the first version of the experiment, they simply handed out the test, had everyone complete it and collected the results; boys and girls performed about equally well. In the second version, the subjects were specifically told that the purpose of the test was to determine whether boys were better than girls at maths; apparently this resulted in girls performing worse than boys. Quite interesting. Wish I could remember the source. In any case, gender-related statistics could surely be useful and enlightening in the right context.

The story's always brought up about teaching techniques incorporating styles of learning that seemed to better help girls/FAAB (generally, things being less exam-focused and also, I think, more group-focused? coincidentally I'm better at the opposites). And then girls began to completely overtake boys! It's starting to level out now but people mostly use it to support masculism... :|

 

[shy ♡]

Why is it bollocks, though? I wouldn't be surprised at all if boys do better than girls in certain exams. The ways we're affected by gender roles and stereotypes aren't always readily apparent. I read an article once where they had boys and girls do a maths test and compared the results. In the first version of the experiment, they simply handed out the test, had everyone complete it and collected the results; boys and girls performed about equally well. In the second version, the subjects were specifically told that the purpose of the test was to determine whether boys were better than girls at maths; apparently this resulted in girls performing worse than boys. Quite interesting. Wish I could remember the source. In any case, gender-related statistics could surely be useful and enlightening in the right context.

The studies are never set out as studying how gender roles affect people, but how different genders (specifically, male and female) perform in set situations. This is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The studies never take any gender other than m/f into account.

The studies never take anyone not raised in a 'traditional' way into account: i.e. intersex people, trans people, etc.; meaning people who were raised with one gender role but identify with a different gender.

Given the fact that these studies literally create the gender roles they are studying, I find them to be completely abhorrent.

well
the vast vast majority of people ARE male or female. how many intersex or genderqueer people do you even know (outside the internet)? and wouldn't a lot of intersex people identify themselves as one of the two anyway?

and since it's high school exams
does it really matter

This is literally like saying 'well how many transgender people are there, not that many right, so why bother accounting for them'.

Or any other minority. Jews are only 1% of the total population, why bother accounting for us?? We don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Jolty]

Yeeeep!
Really, the idea that seeing this kind of thing constantly all day forever builds up into shitty feelings is new to you??

like, I'd understand if you were saying this about something non-important! but uh pretty much a whole lot of trans* people go through high school! (it's still going to be a frustrating people for surely even binary trans folks because you have to work out what they want to hear vs what you actually are/whether you can say what you are without complications etc. etc. etc. forever)

when i did my exams at school and had to write my old name down, yes it was shit because all i could think was "this is dirty lies" but y'know it's an exam. which is going to be marked by someone who doesn't know you (here at least, dunno how it works outside the uk?) and all they care about is giving you a grade or whatever.
and aren't the exams slightly more important than your feelings being hurt
besides, if these exams actually go towards something more important, all your details can be changed later

This is literally like saying 'well how many transgender people are there, not that many right, so why bother accounting for them'.

Or any other minority. Jews are only 1% of the total population, why bother accounting for us?? We don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

yeah because that is totally the same thing.


the gender identity of high school kids is not important in this context. people who grade exams do not care about your feelings and they have no reason to. exams have to do with your knowledge of whatever subject it is (more like ability to memorise shit in a very specific way but i'm not getting into that now), and that is all. your name, gender and pretty much everything else is /irrelevant/.

now. if it was something like... you had to sign up for classes, and you had to fill in a form and the only 2 choices were male or female, THAT would be problematic. because then you'd actually be in an environment where you'd be around people and most likely interacting with them. /then/ your identity has relevance.

 

[Minish]

Er, but, I don't actually care that much about what other people think of me in the first place? 99% of everyone I see in my daily life is preeeetty much going to gender me female, and there is nothing I can do about that unless I try to be more masculine or something. Most people would not believe me, understand me or give me a chance to identify correctly in the first place. I personally am soooo beyond my main issue being that. And that's just me! Other people *do* get legitimately upset that someone far away who'll never meet them might consider them as this thing that they are not!

The thing is, when you have to write your gender as F or M, whatever is wrong, it's coming to you as one horrible representative of one horrible context. It isn't just one thing that you can necessarily be momentarily discomfited by and then rationalise as something that doesn't matter at all so yay! It's just the same old life and that just adds to the pile. This is why representation in media is important! Things add up.

Kiiind of seems like it's not a big deal to you and that should be it? Not the spokesperson etc. and you can't merrily rationalise this for everyone.

 

[Autumn]

the gender identity of high school kids is not important in this context. people who grade exams do not care about your feelings and they have no reason to. exams have to do with your knowledge of whatever subject it is (more like ability to memorise shit in a very specific way but i'm not getting into that now), and that is all. your name, gender and pretty much everything else is /irrelevant/.

The thing is, when you have to write your gender as F or M, whatever is wrong, it's coming to you as one horrible representative of one horrible context. It isn't just one thing that you can necessarily be momentarily discomfited by and then rationalise as something that doesn't matter at all so yay! It's just the same old life and that just adds to the pile. This is why representation in media is important! Things add up.

Kiiind of seems like it's not a big deal to you and that should be it? Not the spokesperson etc. and you can't merrily rationalise this for everyone.

If I were outside the gender binary, what I saw on my exam registration this morning would have legitimately bothered me! Whether or not it was relevant is not the point. It is the fact that they are asking for that detail of my sex/gender (for God knows what reason) and I am not allowed to answer it with the answer that I would have written given an open field, the fact that I am not allowed to tell them (and, by extension, the rest of the world which usually only sees things in terms of the gender binary) how I wish to be treated, what I want them to know about me that would make me happy to be able to say!! It's not the fact that the exam does not matter that is relevant; it is the fact that this is proof that people only consider such a familiar (as with the male/female guardian thing, as well as the sex thing) representation of the world to be the one and only representation.

I can remember when I was younger, in about 2006 or 2007, while I was still in a slightly judgmental, closet-homophobe (and closet homo for that matter) stage, before I was aware of the existence of transgenderism and non-cisgender people (I was 12/13 back then), I remember reading a thread here about Diamond and Pearl where Dannichu said that she was going to play as the female character for once despite having played as the male character in all prior games. My response was a confused "You played as the guy? But your profile says you're a girl... 0_o" While the gender field here at TCoD (and all over the anonymous internet, too) has always been for the purpose of expressing which pronouns to go by, and while Dannichu's not transgender, this memory still remains in my head as proof of my lack of understanding/knowledge of transgenderism. I thought people got sex changes because they felt like it, not because they honestly felt so out of place in their own bodies that they would undergo a sex change to feel better. I thought that anyone who, like Dannichu, would show an interest in doing something like playing as the male character in Pokémon (which could almost be an analogue for presenting as male, I suspect, for some) were weird or abnormal or "why would they do that"? It is only fairly recently - the past two years, perhaps - that I have begun to understand that both sexuality and gender are spectrums and neither can be labeled using the very narrow, specific set of terms that society has decreed must be used.

You know why? I wasn't exposed to the concept enough from a young age. While my parents never brought up the subject or anything, they're not the only ones to blame - mainstream media implies that cisgender is the one, the only, anything else is flawed (or not represented at all!). Seeing female/male on the exam is not 'nothing' because the exam does not matter. It is representative of a more pervasive problem - of ignorance, of societal norms, of the apparent human need to lump everyone into categories with clearly defined boundaries, boundaries that are based on what is most common or expected.

 

[Dannichu]

Aww you. <3

 

[Jolty]

Kiiind of seems like it's not a big deal to you and that should be it? Not the spokesperson etc. and you can't merrily rationalise this for everyone.

you couldn't pay me enough to be "the spokesperson"

I can remember when I was younger, in about 2006 or 2007, while I was still in a slightly judgmental, closet-homophobe (and closet homo for that matter) stage, before I was aware of the existence of transgenderism and non-cisgender people (I was 12/13 back then),

ur all growed up now rite
so enlightened and all-knowing now that you're seventeen

gonna skip the pokemon part because i literally can't even

You know why? I wasn't exposed to the concept enough from a young age. While my parents never brought up the subject or anything, they're not the only ones to blame - mainstream media implies that cisgender is the one, the only, anything else is flawed (or not represented at all!). Seeing female/male on the exam is not 'nothing' because the exam does not matter. It is representative of a more pervasive problem - of ignorance, of societal norms, of the apparent human need to lump everyone into categories with clearly defined boundaries, boundaries that are based on what is most common or expected.

okay
so maybe you should put your energy into breaking down this view on things that are slightly more important. like things that will actually matter to people for longer than a few combined hours during the end of a school year.

if you get all up in arms over every little thing, you're going to end up going insane.
prioritise or something.

 

[Phantom]

I'm just gonna say it. I always played as the guy in Pokémon games. I never liked the girl sprites. They all look too... I don't even know.

Then again, on the internet I am always having to remind people that I'm a 'she'. Its not wrong for a girl to like violent video games! Stereotypes suck.

 

[octobr]

We have to do a survey to rate our teachers at the end of every term. And it asks for sex: f or m. And the last time we did it it made me actually physically ill even if I am in the binary. It was enough to kickstart a downswing. I wish I could just say oh, it's not important, you know, and some part of me knows that, but that doesn't mean I didn't immediately feel wrong.

What about making that sort of reaction avoidable (maybe with a fill-in line for gender rather than a selector for sex) is difficult? How is it gonna be hard for the people who don't have to deal with dysphoria to just fix this. And then we can all be ok.

 

[Minish]

I'm just gonna say it. I always played as the guy in Pokémon games. I never liked the girl sprites. They all look too... I don't even know.

I hate being the opposite! :c I always use girl characters when I can help it and it's really not that helpful when I explain that I don't actually like putting down F in other situations. I mean, mostly it's a combined effect of having a deep aversion to and discomfort with 'he' pronouns because of being bullied horribly at school for ~looking like a boy~ & a boredom for male characters in a sea of male characters, but.

But also, boy sprites are generally really really boring. In Pokemon games they all look identical! And are pretty much just a hat! Female characters and sprites are allowed to have cool hair and more interesting clothes and are just generally more fun by design, which sucks and is wrong, but I'd rather control an interesting-looking character.


(Iiii'd say mostly it's because male characters generally feel boring as can be, though.)

 

[Cerberus87]

I can remember when I was younger, in about 2006 or 2007, while I was still in a slightly judgmental, closet-homophobe (and closet homo for that matter) stage, before I was aware of the existence of transgenderism and non-cisgender people (I was 12/13 back then), I remember reading a thread here about Diamond and Pearl where Dannichu said that she was going to play as the female character for once despite having played as the male character in all prior games. My response was a confused "You played as the guy? But your profile says you're a girl... 0_o" While the gender field here at TCoD (and all over the anonymous internet, too) has always been for the purpose of expressing which pronouns to go by, and while Dannichu's not transgender, this memory still remains in my head as proof of my lack of understanding/knowledge of transgenderism. I thought people got sex changes because they felt like it, not because they honestly felt so out of place in their own bodies that they would undergo a sex change to feel better. I thought that anyone who, like Dannichu, would show an interest in doing something like playing as the male character in Pokémon (which could almost be an analogue for presenting as male, I suspect, for some) were weird or abnormal or "why would they do that"? It is only fairly recently - the past two years, perhaps - that I have begun to understand that both sexuality and gender are spectrums and neither can be labeled using the very narrow, specific set of terms that society has decreed must be used.

You know, Pokémon is a "role-playing game". Wishing to play as the female character (or the male) may not have to do with transgender issues at all.

Pokémon is a sexist game, though. Raising male Pokémon is favoured because they're the ones that pass on TM and egg moves. In GSC, female Pokémon had the lowest attack IVs so the only reason you'd use a female was if you wanted to use Attract or something, because the male was almost always better.

 

[Minish]

Pokémon is a sexist game, though. Raising male Pokémon is favoured because they're the ones that pass on TM and egg moves. In GSC, female Pokémon had the lowest attack IVs so the only reason you'd use a female was if you wanted to use Attract or something, because the male was almost always better.

Eh. Granted, usually in male/female splits the male species is the awesome fighter version (Nidoking, Braviary, etc.) with the female having defensive stats, but. At least things generally suck for females in the actual animal world. Though it's true that female-only Pokemon tend to be frilly healy things-that-look-like dresses as opposed to the Hitmon family, and Gallade? Why.

Pokemon's way more questionable when it comes to its actual human characters. Seriously, Juniper is the only female professor and it's because she's following in her father's footsteps, who overshadows her? Your mother is always a housewife? Picnickers/campers, all bug trainers are boys, etc. etc.?

 

[goldenquagsire]

Eh. Granted, usually in male/female splits the male species is the awesome fighter version (Nidoking, Braviary, etc.) with the female having defensive stats, but. At least things generally suck for females in the actual animal world. Though it's true that female-only Pokemon tend to be frilly healy things-that-look-like dresses as opposed to the Hitmon family, and Gallade? Why.

Pokemon's way more questionable when it comes to its actual human characters. Seriously, Juniper is the only female professor and it's because she's following in her father's footsteps, who overshadows her? Your mother is always a housewife? Picnickers/campers, all bug trainers are boys, etc. etc.?

While certainly not a defence (bigotry is still bigotry no matter what the societal context!), it's worth remembering that these games are made in Japan, a society which by most Western standards is ridiculously sexist and which strictly enforces gender roles.

 

[Minish]

Sort of my point! (Though judging the world by the west's standards: maybe not the best idea!)

 

[Autumn]

ur all growed up now rite
so enlightened and all-knowing now that you're seventeen

gonna skip the pokemon part because i literally can't even

do you have nothing better to do than criticize my thoughts on the subject
seriously wtf, why was that necessary

 

[Butterfree]

Eh, Pokémon is wayyy better than many other things sexism-wise. At least the "females have lower Attack IVs" thing was changed the moment they didn't need to restrict themselves to compatibility with the first games anymore, and rather than putting breasts and bows and eyelashes on the females when they made gender differences, they generally have actual animal gender differences where the male is usually more frilly if anything. I cannot tell you how proud I am of Game Freak for just going "Female Machamp? They look exactly like the males. They don't have bras or less muscle or a more 'feminine' build or face or whatever the hell. Fuck you for thinking that even makes any sense."

Which isn't to say it's anywhere close to perfect, and it's a lot worse with the humans, but being that there's been gradual improvement in that department, I'm at least expecting that to continue.


I'm still kind of puzzled by the "but how could you play as the male character if you're a girl?!" thing. When I was little even characters I made up wholesale were very, very disproportionately male (probably because the characters in the books I liked were very, very disproportionately male). Didn't mean I wasn't a girl; they were fictional characters, not me. Is this unusual?

(I think it must be a leftover from this that when I was taking drama class and was supposed to come up with a character to play, I'd unconsciously make it a guy almost every time. And when we were supposed to pick a monologue to do, the teacher was all "Why do you keep picking monologues by male characters?" and it hadn't even occurred to me to try to go for something by a female character so I'd be able to play it more convincingly to an audience.)


Jolty, please refrain from unsubtly mocking other members, especially when doing so isn't even slightly necessary for the point you're trying to make. Also, while "there are more important things than X" is a valid reason to not divert limited resources towards fixing X, it's not a valid reason to argue that therefore nobody should care about X at all. Yeah, there are more significant places where people shouldn't be made to tick a "Sex: male/female" box, but that doesn't mean one can't be annoyed at being made to tick such a box anywhere at all.

 

[Autumn]

I'm still kind of puzzled by the "but how could you play as the male character if you're a girl?!" thing.

I hadn't run into anybody that didn't at that point and honestly couldn't see a reason why someone would play as the guy character if they're a girl (though that may have been related to my "girls rule!" stance at the time - all the Pokémon I caught had to be female and for the first few years of my writing fanfiction all the main characters were female). Being that I was that confused over something that didn't relate to gender identity I sure as fuck would have pretty much had a brain implosion if someone told me "Hey, some people have vaginas but prefer to go by male pronouns!" or "Hey, some people don't go by female/male pronouns at all; they use pronouns like e/eir/eim to refer to themselves!" - I would have thought said people were just weird and felt like deviating from the norm rather than that that was a legitimate preference. Which is what I was trying to imply with my earlier post, using the Pokémon reference as an example of how close-minded I was to anything that implied something different from "all girls would play as the female character because they are girls!" even if it were something as dumb as Pokémon characters.

 

[goldenquagsire]

Sort of my point! (Though judging the world by the west's standards: maybe not the best idea!)

I just don't think it's fair to judge other cultrues when our own backyard isnt exactly spotless. let's sort out own our pay gap this before we beat on the japanese.

[apologies for yankees, I cannt personally speak for the us pay gap]