speaking of crossdressing. i have an issue related to that that i'm curious about. last week i went to one of my former band's football games and the theme (there's always a theme, be it neon or roman garb or whatnot) was crossdressing. which led to a ton of guys showing up in short shorts and tank tops (usually pink) and a ton of girls showing up in baggy shirts and shorts with backwards baseball caps. upon realizing the theme was crossdressing and that everyone who participated was appropriating the other gender's stereotypes in such a haphazard manner, I turned to my friends and promptly stated, "I don't think that's such a politically correct theme idea. I feel like it'd be offensive to the trans* community."
I agree with Cirrus that that could be pretty harmful! (I prefer "harmful" or a variation to "offensive" in general people people tend to use "offense" in really bad ways and treat it like a joke! "lollllll are you offended lol how does that actually affect you it's not like I punched you since physical pain is obviously the only thing that exists and emotional pain is this thing people made up just to yell at me lol lol lol offense lol." Not that you're using it that way, you're not! But just a reason I try and avoid it altogether. Also "harmful" or "hurtful" can be a lot stronger!)
It's treating "cross"-dressing as this funny hilarious thing that would only happen at a party as a joke! And de-normalizing it and acting like it's really weird for people to wear those clothes, so then when others see people doing it normally, they're more inclined to dismiss that person as weird and a freak instead of thinking it's normal! Also yeah acting stereo-typically while doing it is pretty terrible. And it obviously has a lot of bad implications like that gender binary is an important valid thing and non-binary people can't exist, and that "opposite" genders are a valid thing and that stereo-types are a valid thing! (they're not.) And, with the guys people only wearing tank tops that are maaaybe pink, that has the kind of creepy implication that it's not okay for a coercively-assigned-male person to wear anything "more" than a tank top! I assume that's not a rule of the party and that that's just what people felt able to wear due to a bunch of gross social stuff that happens around clothes?? But something to keep in mind! (also a relevant article:
http://feministmedia.tumblr.com/post/30269715365/the-lesbian-guide-to-the-galaxy about comfort levels with that when other people are participating! It's about a dad who wears a skirt so that his son feels brave enough to do it, too!)
Also, though! Don't forget that there's another way that this could seriously harm trans* people, which is that what if a trans* person is pressured into going to the party!
(Because assuming everyone around who would hear about the party or have friends who want them to go is kind of gross and does that "cis is the regular gender trans* people have to come out or else we'll just assume they don't exist because that's too freakish a thing to be careful about!!" thing!)
It can be really, really, intensely uncomfortable to be in that kind of situation! Trans* people are already regular forced and coered into wearing stereo-typical clothes! This might give someone an excuse to wear clothes they're actually comfortable in when they can't normally, but! Then for instance if a transgender girl is at the party, by wearing "girl" clothes, she's going to be sending the message to everyone "hey, I'm a guy! hilariously cross-dressing in clothes I'd never really be happy wearing! also I'm a guy call me a guy hi." which is obviously really untrue and would feel really gross and painful! By coming out as transgender in an attempt to avoid it, that person would potentially (and likely) open herself up to a lot of hatered!
And then a non-binary person can't even really do anything except not go to the party! Because even if they were out as non-binary and everyone was totally nice and accepting, it's still the case that anything they wear at a party like that is going to be considered really gendered! And considered to be making a statement about which from the binary they "really" are except no they're not really either leave them alone!! Even if no trans* people exist anywhere near that event, creating an unsafe space for them is still not okay at all! It's still increasing negativity and thoughtlessness!
So, you were right to be worried! It's not just this great hilarious joke that will make everyone comfortable and laugh.
if some people do get offended though, fine whatever
but like
does it /actually/ affect their lives?
Well, yeah? If I'm hurting and throwing up and having panic attacks because of being ~offended~ (not just offended! Hurt!), surely that's an effect on my life? Are the wasted hours feeling totally miserable and awful just nothing? Are the people who see the "offensive" (harmful!) thing and then directly because of the thing think I'm more of a freak and treat me worse and become less likely to give me therapy or medicine or surgery nothing?
Phyiscally punching someone in the face isn't the only way to "affect their life"!
Saying you are trans doesn't automatically mean that you are. I completely support the talk-therapy approach before any physical steps are taken, to make sure the person is completely aware of how serious transitioning is. Detransitioning is a reality, and I've personally spoken with people who have admitted they made a mistake and had underlying issues to wrestle with.
Saying it doesn't mean that, but being trans* does automatically mean you're trans*! There isn't a magical thing about therapy that turns people trans* and that makes people who haven't had therapy inherently not-trans*! (That's obvious and I'm sure you recognize that! But maybe putting it that way can help you understand a little better what people are saying!)
Someone being wrong about their gender identity can happen! And people can be unsure about what steps they want to take and maybe feel pushed to taking a wrong step! (though that seems like it would be really, really hard to *actually* take a wrong step since you have to go for years and years on therapy before even getting hormones?? That gives you a loooot of time to figure it out.) I was wrong about my gender for a while! But, I'm not wrong now. I
am definitely, definitely, definitely trans*, and no amount of therapy is going to change my gender into a cis one! There's no reason I should have to prove that to anyone by taking years of therapy just so they'll stop treating me like it's lying and a gross freakish joke! I would
like to be able to get gender therapy and help, and I'd want something like that to make sure I was making an informed decision I was sure about before taking hormones or getting any kind of surgery, because really, I'm not sure! (and I shouldn't have to be sure from the get-go, not in a world where trying to convince yourself that you don't need to do it is a survival mechanism.) But before anyone else will agree that I'm trans*? No!!
Even though being sure is important in a situation where you can make a permanent change, though, don't you agree that it's really wrong for someone who literally
needs those things right now to not be able to for years and years and years! Or never! Even if everyone's heart is in the right place making people wait for years (though I'm not convinced that that's the case), surely it's still not okay that people have to suffer that! I don't know what the best solution is, but it's not the current one.
But this attitude is actively encouraging people who defy gender norms to identify as trans. Which in turn, gives the impression that trans people enforce gender norms rather than breaking them down.
That's not really what's happening in the case of encouraging people in general to think about being trans*, though, is it! Someone saying "oh, you like dresses, you're trans*. even if you say no you're wrong I decided!!" is obviously wrong and doing that! But people need encouragement, too! People need to know that being trans* exists and that it's okay for them to be trans*! (on their own people can come up with the idea that being trans* is a thing and sometimes they have to do that because no one ever told them! But it's pretty hard and painful and really easy to be in denial and think something's just wrong with you because as far as you know you're the only person in the whole world to feel this way!) People need to know what kinds of things could be a clue that they're trans* (like what dysphoria can feel like!) so they have a less painful confusing starting point to think about it! Spreading good information isn't encouraging those bad attitudes!
It can happen that people have wrong reasons and push those kinds of harmful ideas! But that's a reason not to push harmful ideas, not a reason to stop spreading trans* awareness, or a reason to never suggest to someone at all that they could be trans*.
(also sometimes people might do that because a stereo-type is what gave them the idea they were trans* and helped them figure out that they really were! Like maybe a male-assigned person likes wearing dresses and comes up with the idea she's a girl and doesn't mean it, but then goes "wait. Wait, wait, wait, that feels really, really right. What. But how could I be a girl." and then later she figures cross-dressing is a sign of being a girl even though it's actually not! And doesn't want people she runs into who are also male-assigned and like dresses to suffer being alone and confused and struggle to come to their own conclusions, so she tries to help by suggesting they could be trans*! Doing stereo-typical things can feel really comfortable and good to a trans* person not because that's an inherent part of being trans*, but because it feels like saying "hey, I'm $gender!" because they're taught that that's what it means! Or really bad for that same reason. So then people doing and thinking that are wrong, but how can they learn it's wrong! There's such a tiny tiny tiny amount of trans* education things to tell them others also are trans* without it being because of stereo-types! Hopefully that makes sense that I mean confused people who really are honestly trans* but have the mistaken idea that trans* is
about stereo-types! And not people who decide they're trans* because of a stereo-type but aren't trans*. I've never ever heard of a case of the latter happening but it could!)
A lot of trans people don't see their trans status as an identity. They see it as a medical condition. Their mind does not match their body, so they change their body to match their mind. Some people find calling it an identity feels belittling.
That happens, sure! And then it's not okay to tell them it has to be an identity when it's something that they're experiencing as a thing that could be fixed and go away!
But, they're not the only trans* people that exist! It's also really belittling and gross and horrible to tell someone that they
can't experience it as an identity, and that if they don't need their body "fixed" then they
can't be trans*! I experience being non-binary and trans* as really important vital things to my identity, and it's really messed up for people to tell me that that's not valid! Even if I had the choice (and I don't, really) to get things about my body "fixed" so that I'd 100% stop experiencing body dysphoria, I'd still be trans*! I'd still have all of those bad experiences, and I'd still have a completely trans* reaction to misgendering and grossness and still have triggers, and I'd still care about and be involved in the trans* community, and I'd still have coercively been assigned a really wrong gender, and I'd still be hated and treated as a freak for existing, and I'd still, overall,
feel trans*! I'll never have grown up as a cis person! I'll never erase all the horrible reactions people have had being told! I'll never get rid of the way gender feels really important and strongly real for me as a consequence of living with a coercive gender assignment! All of that matters a lot to me! I'll never suddenly be cis, ever!
It's definitely, definitely okay for someone to experience that they
are cis and just in the wrong body and that being trans* is only a problem to be overcome! That's okay! That's valid! But my experience is valid and real, too!
when i stop hearing about stupid little shits that go on T for funsies, lie to therapists, about PEOPLE WHO DECIDE TO LIVE AS MALE FOR A FEW YEARS FOR LITERALLY NO REASON, about people who think they need T to break the gender binary, and when i stop hearing that people like this actually GET t, regret it and then sue the gender clinics and shit, thus making it really fucking hard for actual trans people to get t (y'know to be able to live and shit)
THEN maybe i'll reconsider.
Even if it were true that a bunch of non-binary people were maliciously ruining their bodies in ways they didn't actually want as an intentional malicious act to personally ruin your life on purpose, the people on the forums aren't doing that! You can't punish everyone else for something someone else (supposedly) did! It's basically impossible for me to get hormones or any surgeries or medical help even if I need it to live, too, let alone do it just so I could sue someone!! I've never sued anyone or done the tiniest thing to make doctors wary of
you, and neither have Cirrus, or Diminished Third, or anyone else here!
I'm not personally maliciously on purpose harming
you just by
existing! That's
all I've done is just exist.
vast majority of people wouldn't care about these things because they do actually say next to nothing about you as an actual person.
If people don't care about those things, why are people beaten and killed and worse for those things.
why would you even want that word though, most trans people don't even want it. they just want to get on with their lives and not make a big-ass political statement out of it. why would you want people to know something like that about you?
Try and understand that it's different for you as a person who's lucky enough to potentially get hormones and surgery and then pass as cis! Then it makes lots of sense that you wouldn't want people to ever know you ever had a different body or were called anything else! That would just be dangerous and scary to tell people and give them a chance to hurt you or treat you as the wrong gender, and there's no reason you should have to tell anyone! It's a personal thing about you that no one needs to know!
As someone who can't ever pass as cis, yeah, I do need people to know! I need people to call me the right pronouns and not make me have panic attacks or and not make me experience dysphoria! I need those things to live in any kind of reasonable mental state, just like you need surgeries and hormones to live in any kind of reasonable mental state! I don't have those things, so, mostly I'm really
not in an okay mental state. I don't feel okay, at all!
I don't
want to be trans*, I just want to live my life, too! But I am, so I have to deal with that. Part of accepting myself and trying to feel okay is being able to call myself trans* and recognize that it's okay for me to be that way! I'm not a freak or wrong or gross or bad or malicious just for the detail that I exist!
being trans is having dysphoria, i.e. everything is completely and utterly wrong and not just having a bad perception of yourself.
But, I
do have dysphoria? Even if your definition that you're using it just "someone who has dysphoria", I'm definitely trans*! No, dysphoria and "a bad perception" aren't the exact same thing, but Cirrus wasn't saying they were! e was talking about how the dysphoria is a real feeling that matters and not just a random weird thing that's happening to em for reasons e doesn't understand and should ignore! Having a word that says that that's real is powerful! It's okay if you don't totally understand or don't feel that way yourself, but other people are telling you that that's the case, and for them, it is the case!
oh my god you know that people can't ACTUALLY TELL if you're trans at birth right? all this coercively assigned bullshit is so stupid
No, they can't, but that doesn't mean I wasn't coercively assigned!! It's gross and wrong that cis is the default and that being trans* is considered a gross freakish disease! I'm not a disease, I'm a person! A real person who exists! If you experience it as being a disease to be cured, fine! I don't have to, too! Dysphoria is a thing that's wrong with me that I wish wasn't wrong with me, but I'm still not diseased or a freak!!
Obviously everyone realizes that the doctors can't tell?? But looking at someone's genitals and going "this person is a THING because trans* doesn't exist and is just a gross freakish thing someone made up to be gross and freakish because they're a gross freakish freak!" is horrible! My body isn't someone else's body and the right gender for that person, it's MY body. Mine!!! Not a male or female or intersex body, MY body! It's a non-binary body becase it is mine! A body that belongs to a non-binary person! Anyone who decides it's someone else's body and I'm not allowed to have any control over it is horrible!
It doesn't matter that a doctor could never know I was non-binary, because the point is still that they were wrong! Just because they couldn't tell doesn't mean they're magically right! I can't tell someone's gender, either, does that mean everyone is the gender I decided! No! I can't control people! I don't have a magic to change a person's gender and erase their dysphoria!
Anyway, it's my experience that
coercive assignment is less a statement about a doctor being coercive, and more about everyone else! If my only experience with people was conversations like "hi, some-gender!" "oh, actually, I'm not!" "oh! okay! sorry!", then I wouldn't call my assignment coercive! But, instead, the reaction is for people to tell me I'm lying and a freak and that really I'm cis and the gender they decided because they've decided that they have the magic power to decide and change a person's gender or that anyway they know best because they're me wait no they're not, so no, they really don't know best! I do, as the only person who's me! I exist around people who are constantly telling me what gender I am even when I say no, and who try their hardest to force me to comply with their stereo-types, and who have decided my friends have a magic power to brainwash me into thinking I'm trans* and so it's their job to do whatever they can to change me into a cisgender person again even if it means emotional or physical abuse, and who are extremely controlling about me telling people, and who when they're abusive blame
me for it because if I'd never come out by mistake then I wouldn't be freaking people out so they wouldn't
have to act abusive (because being abusive is a thing you can't control if the person is that much of a freak, obviously.), and who wouldn't ever ever stop now that they've started even if I lied about my gender to agree with them!
So, that's why I use the phrase "coercively assigned"! Because just "assigned" indicates that oh it was just an honest mistake gosh we're so sorry everyone will be nice and let you get surgery and hormones and stop misgendering you now sorry again!!! No! It's not like that! I'm not going to lie and pretend it isn't coercive and hurtful!
I really dislike the attitude of blaming everything on medical professionals honestly. There's a lot of misinformation and general bad advice generated by the trans community alone.
Like what! What's misinformation! If there is, that's really important to try and clue people in!
(
aren't there a lot of really really serious and bad problems about medical professionals, though! You had nice ones that's good and lucky! I'm glad for you! But not everyone gets that.)
