Is it necessary for a trans* person to transition?

[nastypass]

Okay, then let's compare it to ethnicity, because I've never understood transethnicism either. Race is a social construct. A physical spectrum. Can I say that I am black, even though my skin is not dark enough for anybody to call me black, ever? Would it be acceptable for me to walk up to a black person and say "I know what you've gone through in terms of racism. I'm black, too"? Can I say that if I get an operation that turns my skin dark enough for people to call me black?

I know this isn't a perfect analogy. Why? Because we've generally agreed that someone's race is not a costume or an "identity" that you can just appropriate. It's the reason blackface is unacceptable. But I do see parallels with the trans issue and I'd be curious to see this addressed.

okay so i was going to come in and express my desire for cooler heads to prevail but i feel like the following message is way more important: ho lee dang this part is gross and i really hope, on rereading it, you see why

 

[shy ♡]

Again: this kind of hostility is extremely unhelpful. If you want to stop having to take flak from the rest of society, you can start by not alienating the few people who actually do their best to be respectful. Just politely address the questions being asked, and cut the ridiculous sarcasm. Everyone walks home wiser and happier.

"I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights." Desmond Tutu

Read.

I have no obligation to treat someone nicely when they are saying things that offend me grossly. I do not have to cajole people into not oppressing me. I do not have to earn people not oppressing me. If ... wants to become a bigot, good for her. If she wants to blame a few 'mean' trans people, great. That does not justify anything.

ETA:

Yes. Therefore, the occasional non-oppressive non-douchebag is to be appreciated.

NO. You don't get cookies just for not being an asshole. We are not so special that you need magical brain powers to not hate us. It only takes like, a minimal amount of empathy. We do not have to adore everyone who does not hate us just because we are trans. Jesus fucking christ are you serious. Do you treat everyone like gods just because they don't hate you for being Asian? Even if they do in fact act like assholes? But my god, they aren't racist, so it doesn't matter what else they say, right!

 

[octobr]

Yes. Therefore, the occasional non-oppressive non-douchebag is to be appreciated.


I am fairly certain no such person has yet posted in this thread.

i am gonna just c/p the short convo i just had with meursault regarding this cause he said the same thing

(7:02:23 PM) Verne: that's not the point here
(7:03:15 PM) Verne: the point is, occasionally, i get sick and tired of dealing with cis people's bullshit. i have no way of being able to tell if they're gonna pull some asshole trick at the next turn. and i'm not there to educate them on this shit just for them to turn around and tell me i'm wrong.
(7:04:51 PM) Verne: and in case they didn't notice, i'm real upset. real fucking mad about this whole topic and i have tried time after time after time trying to tell people these things in nice calm ways and i am done with it

i mean like. how would you feel if someone decided they knew better about an issue that affects you very personally, and they tried to talk to you about it but then just decided you were wrong, even though they'd never experienced that issue? and how would you feel if it happened over and over and over
:?

 

[ultraviolet]

what I'd like to know is - and yeah I'm cis so whatever I probably don't know what I'm talking about - why is it important for a trans* person to transition? It's not as though all these people who don't really want to transition affect other people's chances of transitioning... because they don't want to transition! why does it matter that people are calling themselves trans* but don't really want to transition? how does negatively it affect anybody who does want to transition?

what is gained from going 'um no you're not trans* because x'. what is the point? I'm honestly confused here. how does this effect the identity of someone who does want to transition?

and yeah guys if you're finding it so hard to respond to someone without being sarcastic and awful, it would do well remember that you do not have to post. if you're feeling ill from this thread - that is okay! I don't think anyone's going to be particularly awful because you're not replying. Or you can reply later if you think you'll feel less upset. probably nothing will be gained if you're super super upset. :C sometimes it's better to just slam down your laptop and go find something else to do or go eat something unhealthy.

Yes. Therefore, the occasional non-oppressive non-douchebag is to be appreciated.

to be fair, that is kind of like being appreciative of someone being not racist or not sexist. people should be that anyway! you shouldn't have to appreciate it, but I do get what you mean.

 

[shy ♡]

Not my point at all... Let me rephrase the question: what is the difference between this "transethnicism" thing I've seen and trans issues? Pretend I am really fucking obtuse and explain it to me because while I know there is a difference, I cannot express it in words. I am 100% serious, this is not trolling.

If I am missing points, then quite frankly I want to hear them. I've honestly though about this long and hard, but my perspective is limited. As I've mentioned before and as has been stated in this thread, I am not trans (and also not transethnic). I've heard some "radical feminists" say that being trans (specifically trans woman) is appropriating and mocking the female identity. I disagree completely. And yet if someone were to tell me "I'm actually black" when they have light skin color and have no African ancestry whatsoever, I'd think that they were appropriating black culture. Being that this elicited a caps-lock filled response from you, I assume you agree. Can you better list why this is wrong, because I've honestly thought about it and I can't really communicate clearly the difference between the too.

Transethnicism is appropriating because poc are a minority and you cannot have that experience without living it, physically or otherwise. It is not the same as trans women because no one is oppressed for being transethnic. Trans women are oppressed on a whole entire level more than cis women - they aren't 'getting' anything. Transethnic people are still white (also note it only seems to be white people...) while appropriating poc's everything, and not getting any of the oppression they've had, or even being oppressed for being trans, because transethnicism isn't a thing.

Personally I'm not bothered by otherkin because no one is a) appropriated or b) oppressed by their existence. It's sort of harmless so idgaf.

ETA:

I may not understand why trans people feel the way they do but I kind of want to make it clear that I am trying to understand and even if all of TCoD comes in and says I'm a bigoted and uneducated redneck, I would not stop supporting trans people. :v Not being a huge fan of condescension and caps lock and .gifs does not mean I'm "blaming a few mean people" or that I'm going to become a bigot.

I didn't mean to imply you would, simply that I wouldn't base my actions on that fear.

 

[Byrus]

I understand the whole "I'm not going to treat you like a champion just because you're not being an oppressive ass" mindset. But I don't see the point of being unnecessarily hostile and snarky to someone who is generally being respectful and calm to you. It just seems immature. I mean, I've seen this thing on tumblr too many times to count, and I get so much second-hand embarrassment watching full grown adults screaming in all caps and throwing out ridiculous insults.

I'm not saying you have to grovel at their feet or whatever, just... respond calmly and rationally so we can have a proper discussion.

and yeah guys if you're finding it so hard to respond to someone without being sarcastic and awful, it would do well remember that you do not have to post. if you're feeling ill from this thread - that is okay! I don't think anyone's going to be particularly awful because you're not replying. Or you can reply later if you think you'll feel less upset. probably nothing will be gained if you're super super upset. :C sometimes it's better to just slam down your laptop and go find something else to do or go eat something unhealthy.

I'm eating a liquorice whip now and it's all your fault! MY WORKOUT REGIME IS RUINED

Personally I'm not bothered by otherkin because no one is a) appropriated or b) oppressed by their existence. It's sort of harmless so idgaf.

I've seen a lot of otherkin comparing their issues to trans and racial issues though. (Also, I saw a tapeworm otherkin which was pretty amusing)

 

[Autumn]

WE AREN'T TAKING FLAK FROM THE REST OF SOCIETY CAUSE THE TRANS PEOPLE ARE BEING MEAN HOLY Shit we are taking flak. from the rest of society. because the rest of society has a tendency to be oppressive douchebags.

we have *no requirement* to be nice and patient and sweet to the same people who insult us and hurt us and murder us daily.

"I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights." Desmond Tutu

Read.

I have no obligation to treat someone nicely when they are saying things that offend me grossly. I do not have to cajole people into not oppressing me. I do not have to earn people not oppressing me. If ... wants to become a bigot, good for her. If she wants to blame a few 'mean' trans people, great. That does not justify anything.

ETA:




NO. You don't get cookies just for not being an asshole. We are not so special that you need magical brain powers to not hate us. It only takes like, a minimal amount of empathy. We do not have to adore everyone who does not hate us just because we are trans. Jesus fucking christ are you serious. Do you treat everyone like gods just because they don't hate you for being Asian? Even if they do in fact act like assholes? But my god, they aren't racist, so it doesn't matter what else they say, right!

okay I was going to stay faaaaaar away from this discussion but I just want to say. This seems like a gross generalization. Like cis people, by nature of being cis, are automatically oppressing and hurting the trans* community. While it is true that the prevalence of the idea that "cis is the only thing to be!" and the general fact that the cis community does outnumber the trans* community means that the trans* community is being oppressed, that does not mean that every single cis person on the planet is dedicated to making sure the trans* community never gets rights. Trans* people can't help being trans* and neither can cis people help being cis. So if a cis person comes in and at least tries to understand or empathize with the experiences of the trans* community (even if they can never actually claim to have experienced that!) I would think you could do better than to assume that because they're cis they have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT NONE NADA to be trying to have a discussion regarding trans* issues.

Maybe these comments weren't saying the entire cis community is assholes, and in that case I apologize. But it did come across as seeming like... "We have the right to be assholes to everyone cis regardless of whether they're trying to help or hurt us simply because EVERYONE THAT'S CIS is being assholes to us!" which I find offensive since I'm cis but I still attempt to educate people on trans* issues whenever the topic comes up and I don't discriminate against the trans* community.

 

[Dinru]

okay I was going to stay faaaaaar away from this discussion but I just want to say. This seems like a gross generalization. Like cis people, by nature of being cis, are automatically oppressing and hurting the trans* community. While it is true that the prevalence of the idea that "cis is the only thing to be!" and the general fact that the cis community does outnumber the trans* community means that the trans* community is being oppressed, that does not mean that every single cis person on the planet is dedicated to making sure the trans* community never gets rights. Trans* people can't help being trans* and neither can cis people help being cis. So if a cis person comes in and at least tries to understand or empathize with the experiences of the trans* community (even if they can never actually claim to have experienced that!) I would think you could do better than to assume that because they're cis they have ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT NONE NADA to be trying to have a discussion regarding trans* issues.

Maybe these comments weren't saying the entire cis community is assholes, and in that case I apologize. But it did come across as seeming like... "We have the right to be assholes to everyone cis regardless of whether they're trying to help or hurt us simply because EVERYONE THAT'S CIS is being assholes to us!" which I find offensive since I'm cis but I still attempt to educate people on trans* issues whenever the topic comes up and I don't discriminate against the trans* community.

While I agree that people don't have to be assholes, by far cis people tend to be really disrespectful and mean to trans* folk and they kill us in the streets every day, DMAB trans folk especially. It's not unreasonable to ask that cis people not enter into trans* discussions between trans* people about trans*liness, even if those cis people aren't being assholes about it.

It's also not unreasonable to answer a question or two posted by a curious cis person.

It's also not unreasonable to be angry and upset and react as such when those cis people turn around and trigger you or make you upset.

 

[Autumn]

It's not unreasonable to ask that cis people not enter into trans* discussions between trans* people about trans*liness, even if those cis people aren't being assholes about it.

But at the same time, the general consensus here seems to be that the cis community is one of ignorance and hate. By not letting them take part in a trans* discussion, how are they supposed to understand the trans* community if they genuinely want to? It seems like it would be easy for a cis person in this case to say "You know what, fuck that, the trans* people don't deserve rights if they're going to be all high-and-mighty about themselves." Which I certainly don't feel but given some responses earlier, it would be easy for a cis person to think that, I think!

It's also not unreasonable to be angry and upset and react as such when those cis people turn around and trigger you or make you upset.

This is understandable. However sometimes this can happen by mistake (as we've already seen)! Since only trans* people can know trans* experiences, a cis person in the conversation might accidentally say the wrong thing or assume something faulty, and this cannot be traced back to malice every time! Immediate angry reactions are not doing anything to help your cause. While I understand trying to make the cis community understand the plight of the trans* community, I don't think you're doing yourselves any favors by expecting that cis people should ALWAYS know how not to offend the trans community!

I'm not trying to sound like cis people are getting oppressed/picked on unfairly/whatever but I'm just saying that it seems like you have high expectations for how cis and trans* people should interact!

 

[Datura]

Personally I'm not bothered by otherkin because no one is a) appropriated or b) oppressed by their existence. It's sort of harmless so idgaf.

It really is harmful, though. Otherkin, especially in social justice-y places like Tumblr, are generally SAWCSMs (or are, at the very least, very privileged people) who like to compare their plight and struggle to those of trans* people. Otherkin who take terms from the trans* community absolutely need to be called out. This is a good blog from an ex-otherkin who explains why people do this and why it's bad.

I agree that merely identifying as otherkin is not problematic. There are weirder things to think than "I am a cat," and I doubt anybody is going to be able to convince them otherwise, so I just leave it alone.

 

[surskitty]

@Augmented Second: Um, it's quite possible for cis people to, you know, read what trans people have to say and mostly stay out of the discussion. You don't have to share your 2¢ every time the subject comes up.

 

[Autumn]

Um, it's quite possible for cis people to, you know, read what trans people have to say and mostly stay out of the discussion. You don't have to share your 2¢ every time the subject comes up.

As I mentioned, I was going to stay out of the conversation until the cis-hate came up. Which isn't exactly endearing :/ but I mean often uneducated cis people will have a lot of questions about the trans* community! Asking questions should not be grounds for anger!

 

[octobr]

But at the same time, the general consensus here seems to be that the cis community is one of ignorance and hate. By not letting them take part in a trans* discussion, how are they supposed to understand the trans* community if they genuinely want to? It seems like it would be easy for a cis person in this case to say "You know what, fuck that, the trans* people don't deserve rights if they're going to be all high-and-mighty about themselves." Which I certainly don't feel but given some responses earlier, it would be easy for a cis person to think that, I think!

well i mean. generally the trans* population doesn't do a lot of ignoring and hating towards the trans* community so yeah.

as a general rule, all of the hate and oppressing comes from the cis community. no, they're not all ~evil masterminds~ or whatever. but how can we be expected to immediately trust the group that we know is responsible for all the oppression, yanno

if only we could say 'you know what fuck that the cis people don't deserve rights if they're going to be all high and mighty about themselves' :B

 

[Dinru]

It really is harmful, though. Otherkin, especially in social justice-y places like Tumblr, are generally SAWCSMs (or are, at the very least, very privileged people) who like to compare their plight and struggle to those of trans* people. Otherkin who take terms from the trans* community absolutely need to be called out. This is a good blog from an ex-otherkin who explains why people do this and why it's bad.

I just want to let you know that many otherkin are trans*. The otherkin I've known who talk about the violence and harassment they face because of being otherkin are also trans*. There are some who are cis and go a little to far, I'll grant you that, but don't dismiss them completely.

As I mentioned, I was going to stay out of the conversation until the cis-hate came up. Which isn't exactly endearing :/ but I mean often uneducated cis people will have a lot of questions about the trans* community! Asking questions should not be grounds for anger!

There are other places to ask questions than in the middle of a discussion.

 

[Adriane]

well i mean. generally the trans* population doesn't do a lot of ignoring and hating towards the trans* community so yeah.

as a general rule, all of the hate and oppressing comes from the cis community. no, they're not all ~evil masterminds~ or whatever. but how can we be expected to immediately trust the group that we know is responsible for all the oppression, yanno

if only we could say 'you know what fuck that the cis people don't deserve rights if they're going to be all high and mighty about themselves' :B

While I agree with the general sentiment, it pains me to say this isn't really true. Those of us who don't fit on the solid binary get plenty of crap from those who do, even if they are trans.

 

[octobr]

While I agree with the general sentiment, it pains me to say this isn't really true. Those of us who don't fit on the solid binary get plenty of crap from those who do, even if they are trans.

well i mean yeah.
but.

largely we're looking at cispeople for the hate here

there is gonna be hate within the community and that's frickin terrible and i'm mad about it but :?

 

[Autumn]

as a general rule, all of the hate and oppressing comes from the cis community.

This is true.

no, they're not all ~evil masterminds~ or whatever. but how can we be expected to immediately trust the group that we know is responsible for all the oppression, yanno

That is fair! However, no one's asking you to immediately trust the cis community, but more simply to not get defensive and angry when they haven't expressed any outright anti-trans* sentiments!

if only we could say 'you know what fuck that the cis people don't deserve rights if they're going to be all high and mighty about themselves' :B

I suppose you have a point! However cis people are not the ones seeking rights right now, that would be the trans* community! And while no one's asking you to be sweet as honey to every cis person you meet, I personally am asking if the blanket generalizations and angry reactions against cis people trying to understand the trans* community could be toned down some!

There are other places to ask questions than in the middle of a discussion.

It seems like the most appropriate place to ask, honestly. I mean, it is already a discussion about trans* people being held by trans* people, if a cis reader has a question about something a trans* person states why not add to the discussion?

 

[Byrus]

I just want to let you know that many otherkin are trans*. The otherkin I've known who talk about the violence and harassment they face because of being otherkin are also trans*. There are some who are cis and go a little to far, I'll grant you that, but don't dismiss them completely.

I don't understand what you're trying to imply here. There is no connection between being trans and otherkin.

Also, that sounds like it's more related to ableism? I mean, if someone hears about this person going around saying they're a cat or a fairy or something, then they automatically think "haha that person is crazy", and then beat them up for that or such.

 

[Datura]

Also, that sounds like it's more related to ableism? I mean, if someone hears about this person going around saying they're a cat or a fairy or something, then they automatically think "haha that person is crazy", and then beat them up for that or such.

This is a much better parallel!

 

[Music Dragon]

EDIT: People here post very fast. Huh.

"I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights." Desmond Tutu

Read.

I have no obligation to treat someone nicely when they are saying things that offend me grossly. I do not have to cajole people into not oppressing me. I do not have to earn people not oppressing me. If ... wants to become a bigot, good for her. If she wants to blame a few 'mean' trans people, great. That does not justify anything.

My entire point is that ... evidently does not want to become a bigot. She was asking questions and trying to learn. If someone offends you unintentionally, just explain why you were offended and give them an opportunity to learn from the experience, then kick their ass if they don't.

I am not saying that it's okay to use a transparent veneer of politesse to disguise vile prejudices. It's not about you having to earn anything, it's about having to teach other people what hurts you because they genuinely don't know.

NO. You don't get cookies just for not being an asshole.

No, but you should at least be given the benefit of the doubt.

We are not so special that you need magical brain powers to not hate us. It only takes like, a minimal amount of empathy. We do not have to adore everyone who does not hate us just because we are trans. Jesus fucking christ are you serious. Do you treat everyone like gods just because they don't hate you for being Asian? Even if they do in fact act like assholes? But my god, they aren't racist, so it doesn't matter what else they say, right!

I am not asking you to adore or worship anyone; I'm asking you to recognize when a person is just ignorant as opposed to an actual asshole. If somebody says terribly offensive things because they honestly don't know any better, just explain to them what they're doing wrong and why, and hopefully they'll change. If they don't care even after you've told them what offends you and why, then they really are assholes, but at least give them that opportunity to prove otherwise. How can you blame someone for offending you when they honestly had no idea what they were doing wrong?

i am gonna just c/p the short convo i just had with meursault regarding this cause he said the same thing

(7:02:23 PM) Verne: that's not the point here
(7:03:15 PM) Verne: the point is, occasionally, i get sick and tired of dealing with cis people's bullshit. i have no way of being able to tell if they're gonna pull some asshole trick at the next turn. and i'm not there to educate them on this shit just for them to turn around and tell me i'm wrong.
(7:04:51 PM) Verne: and in case they didn't notice, i'm real upset. real fucking mad about this whole topic and i have tried time after time after time trying to tell people these things in nice calm ways and i am done with it

Noted.

i mean like. how would you feel if someone decided they knew better about an issue that affects you very personally, and they tried to talk to you about it but then just decided you were wrong, even though they'd never experienced that issue? and how would you feel if it happened over and over and over
:?

You're already aware I've had to deal with mental disorder in the past, and that's something that comes with a lot of stigma too. It's frustrating when people think they can tell you who you are, but some people aren't looking to do that. They're just asking who you are.

to be fair, that is kind of like being appreciative of someone being not racist or not sexist. people should be that anyway! you shouldn't have to appreciate it, but I do get what you mean.

In a perfect world, maybe we wouldn't have to appreciate anything because we'd take it all for granted. But unfortunately, oppressive douchebags are numerous. I appreciate every halfway decent person I come across.