Life after Death?

[Aura Cobalt]

As far as I remember: "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself." NO human is worthy to judge as I recall, only God can.

What does that even have to do with?

The problem with believing in God and Heaven without any evidence is not that it is illogical, just that it is inconsistent. In all other aspects of your life you presume that nothing exists until you have evidence for it. But as soon as God is mentioned, you presume that everything exists until you have evidence against it. One has to choose one of those principles and apply it to both God and unicorns.

The Bible uses the objective to prove the subjective. The Bible was way ahead of it's time, take for example Job 26:7 "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Ancient mythology always said that the Earth was being lifted up by something, such as a god, or sitting on another surface. In the ancient world, this surely would have been a radical concept that science has proved true today.

And that's just one example.

What? Stating animals have no souls? That's the truth and most of you think it will happen to yourselves. When I say this I don't mean there will never be animals in heaven, there will (most likely), but probably not your dog marley.

This.

No sorry I'm pretty sure Hitler was Catholic. He talks about Jesus a couple times in Mein Kampf and one of the reasons for his hatred of Jews was that they killed him.
And yeah Jesus was Jewish but you know. He's Hitler, he doesn't make much sense.
Here's a picture of him shaking hands with a cardinal:

DID YOU HEAR WHAT I FRIGGIN' SAID?!!? It's not whether or not you just accept Christ, you have to actually pursue His teachings and follow His will for your life. There will always be forgiveness for your wrongdoings, but it would be totally wrong to do something just because God will forgive you later. And just to let you know, Hitler killed jews, retards, and homosexuals because of his Darwinian perspectives; he thought what he was doing was right because he was helping the human race progress past these "deformations."

Now, please don't get me wrong, I know Darwinism doesn't automatically = Nazi, but it all did come off of Darwinism.

I also don't really understand, does that mean that only Christians can have a cool afterlife? Because you can bet that guys like Gandhi, the Dalai Lama or the Jewish holocaust victims are far more deserving of heaven than Jerry Falwell or Ratzinger ever will be.

So why do non-Christians exist?
And don't say "well they haven't embraced God" or something, I'm talking about different theologies from around the world before Christianity spread and before it even existed; what about them? Why did they exist? Why did God put humans who had no chance of believing in him on the Earth and then not let them into paradise?

To whom much is given much will be required; to whom little is given little will be required.

The Bible doesn't say anything about those who have never heard of Christ, but we know that God is just and fair. To those who havn't heard, they will be judged according to what they do know.

What?
What does that even mean!?
Are you saying that animals don't matter because they're entirely physical manifestations? Are you saying animals are like complex machines?

Well, yes, I am saying that they are complex machines, but that's not to say they don't matter. They all play an important part of the grand design of the ecosystems God has created. They are wonderful creatures, they just don't have souls.

What about the fact humans are animals? What about the fact animals can be just as emotive as humans? I think you're drawing a bigger line between us and other animals than there actually is.

Genesis 1:27 says that God created man in his image, which has many interpertations, but I think it is reffering to the aspect of actually having a soul.

Wow God has some kind of inferiority complex doesn't he? You worship God for your entire life and you be a good Christian and then in paradise the only thing that's really promised is worshipping God for eternity.

Oh, you don't see! When you've lived your whole life pursuing Him, and delight yourself in the Lord as the Bible says, there's just nothing greater you can imagin than being in his presence praising His holiness. I'm sorry, I just can't seem to find the words for what I want to say.

 

[spaekle]

First of all, animals do not have souls; they are purely matterial and the only separates an beetle from a rock is complexity.

Except for maybe that one is an organism and the other isn't. And that's really just the beginning.

I'm being an echo at this point, but everything from communication to tools to emotion is found in other animals. Humans are not special. Furthermore, if we're not animals, then what are we? You can't say we fit the descriptions for plants or bacteria better.

Animals were made for your personal enjoyment and nutrition.

This is a terrible thing to believe. Animals are here for you. How about we treat animals with some respect? I'm not one of these PETA psychos; hell, I'm not even a vegetarian. I just realize that animals are also living things and that while, yes, you do need to kill other things to feed yourself, that doesn't mean you need to act like they're inferior. Tell you what, why don't you spend a weekend fending for yourself deep in a forest with no clothing, shelter, or outside communication and tell me just how superior you were to everything else when you get back?

We are special. It amazes me how you guys think that you evolved from something so lowly and small. Your special. Every one is.

I don't need to think I'm God's Chosen or whatever to feel like my life is special. It's relatively meaningless in the grand scheme of things, yes, but I can live it how I want. The fact that it's not going to last forever and ever makes it even more important that I do make it count.

 

[Bombsii]

Personally? Nothing. I think there will be nothing. if anything, a never-ending state where you can't feel or see anything and you can do nothing but think. That for me would be hell.

I want there to be an afterlife, I also want to look back at my life and view it again so I could relfect.

 

[GameFreakerZero]

The Bible uses the objective to prove the subjective. The Bible was way ahead of it's time, take for example Job 26:7 "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Ancient mythology always said that the Earth was being lifted up by something, such as a god, or sitting on another surface. In the ancient world, this surely would have been a radical concept that science has proved true today.

... Um what?
No seriously what? So the Bible said that the Earth is floating is space and it happened to be correct. So what? It doesn't prove God exists it just proves the Bible happened to be right this one time.

The point Ruby was trying to make was that the religious won't assume, say, that unicorns or dragons or elves exist, because they haven't seen proof of them, but the minute God's doubted people will do everything they can to scrounge up some proof, some possibility, that one exists.

The Bible doesn't say anything about those who have never heard of Christ, but we know that God is just and fair. To those who havn't heard, they will be judged according to what they do know.

So then why spread the word of Christ? Due to knowing about Christianity I am doomed to hellfire because I think religion is false. Regardless of anything good I do in life, because I know what Christianity is I'm going to hell without judgement but someone who hasn't heard of Jesus will be judged fairly.

"Just and fair".

Well, yes, I am saying that they are complex machines, but that's not to say they don't matter. They all play an important part of the grand design of the ecosystems God has created. They are wonderful creatures, they just don't have souls.

Except that once upon a time before we started building up our reservoir of knowledge and technology we fit into a niche in that ecosystem.

Also see VPLJ's recent post about women.

Genesis 1:27 says that God created man in his image, which has many interpertations, but I think it is reffering to the aspect of actually having a soul.

Just a question but, what does a soul do or what is it?

Oh, you don't see! When you've lived your whole life pursuing Him, and delight yourself in the Lord as the Bible says, there's just nothing greater you can imagin than being in his presence praising His holiness. I'm sorry, I just can't seem to find the words for what I want to say.

Oh no I'm not saying anything about you, I'm sure you're enthralled in your religion if you've lived with it your entire life but what I'm asking is what this implies about God.

It's just, it seems incredibly egotistical, petit and arrogant for an infallible deity to actively want worshippers. I can sort of understand the train of thought that says he only lets good people through the pearly gates, although I don't agree with that either, but the idea that a God so petit that he would test his creations first and foremost based on whether they worshipped him or not and secondarily on their good deeds in life, only to reward them with worshipping him infitely is benevolent and just? That honestly blows my mind. A religion that likes to portray itself as altruistic and caring like Christianity sure has an arrogant snob of a God.

 

[Tarvos]

What does that even have to do with?

Simple. You are judging animals to be worthless when your fucking GOD tells you not to judge. If you're such a devout adherent of your religion, eschew your goddamn hypocrisy and actually show some tolerance and benevolence.

 

[opaltiger]

And just to let you know, Hitler killed jews, retards, and homosexuals because of his Darwinian perspectives; he thought what he was doing was right because he was helping the human race progress past these "deformations."

This is a complete fabrication. Kindly stop repeating it.

 

[Scyther]

Once again, frustration has prevented me from remembering that logic is completely ineffective when dealing with someone who has already abandoned it.

Hoenestly? It's not just you, Music Dragon, but try to understand their point of view. They're as dead set on religion as you are on athiesm, and blindly throwing insults won't change anything.

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

P.S. Vladimir Putin's LJ, you double posted. You might wanna fix that.

I'll get onto that as soon as I get mod powers.

DID YOU HEAR WHAT I FRIGGIN' SAID?!!? It's not whether or not you just accept Christ, you have to actually pursue His teachings and follow His will for your life. There will always be forgiveness for your wrongdoings, but it would be totally wrong to do something just because God will forgive you later. And just to let you know, Hitler killed jews, retards, and homosexuals because of his Darwinian perspectives; he thought what he was doing was right because he was helping the human race progress past these "deformations."

Now, please don't get me wrong, I know Darwinism doesn't automatically = Nazi, but it all did come off of Darwinism.

Don't try to tell me what the Nazis believed in because I have a morbid interest in this matter and actually do research that isn't tuning into the Glenn Beck show.
So God will forgive him even though he committed mass murder? That's what I'm getting from 'it would be totally wrong to do something just because God will forgive you later'. Darwinism isn't at all like what you describe and Adolf showed no special interest in evolution, I'm sorry to say.
And did the Jews go to heaven or not? It'd be a riot if they stepped out of the holocaust and into hell, that's for sure. They can keep the Polish, communists and gypsies out, I suppose. And every other group that was killed despite not being on your 'inferiors' list.

He might've gone mad because, you know, he had a shitty childhood, a terrible dad, failed his artistic career and decided to blame it on those who were better off. The ones who had real grudges with homosexuals were Goebbels, the minister of propaganda, and Himmler, leader of the SS. Hitler himself was good friends with Röhm, who was a very out gay man (Himmler was also his secretary and Röhm had a reputation for hitting on guys who worked for him so this is a likely connection. Himmler was actually the one who orchestrated the Night of the Long Knives, which was basically a cleansing of all known homosexuals in the SA).
Darwin has nothing to answer for as far as Nazism goes and your implications that men of science believe in foolish biggotry is outrageous and insulting.

Calling the mentally handicapped 'retards' is very sensible in a debate by the way.

Also, brandman, why did you completely ignore VPLJ's post? You clearly read it since you noticed that she double-posted, but why didn't you respond to it? It's a pretty logical thing to ask. According to the Bible, women were created to be man's plaything, created after the animals. Why isn't this notable enough to respond to?

Thanks for bringing my post to their attention because I'd like an answer as well. Slight gender pronoun mix-up, however.

 

[xkze]

Hoenestly? It's not just you, Music Dragon, but try to understand their point of view. They're as dead set on religion as you are on athiesm, and blindly throwing insults won't change anything.

Again, the fact that Christianity is about abandoning logic isn't an "insult." It's... something that is.

 

[Zuu]

Oh, you don't see! When you've lived your whole life pursuing Him, and delight yourself in the Lord as the Bible says, there's just nothing greater you can imagin than being in his presence praising His holiness. I'm sorry, I just can't seem to find the words for what I want to say.

Yeah man, it is the best being a mindless slave with no personal opinions.

 

[Saith]

It's funny how those who tell people not to judge Christianity because a few people interpret it differently still say things just as stupid.

Anyway, to the original debate, I reckon there is an afterlife. I don't know why, maybe growing up in a school in which people who weren't mainstream Christians weren't allowed in the assemblies rubbed off on me. Hope not.

Anywho, I both hope there is and there isn't. If there is, that means there must be some sort of higher being which would be cool. Although, I'd go to the other place. Not that it's so bad there. The Bible references Hell once, I think, as a 'place of gnashing teeth and away from God'. Or something.

So if you can't be arsed with Christianty in the first place, Hell wouldn't bother you, 'specially the whole gnashing teeth thing is because of being away from God.

Or something.

 

[Music Dragon]

Hoenestly? It's not just you, Music Dragon, but try to understand their point of view. They're as dead set on religion as you are on athiesm, and blindly throwing insults won't change anything.

It wasn't intended as an insult. My point is that you can't really get anywhere with these people. Trying to argue some sense into a more or less fundamentalist Christian is as big a waste of time as trying one of those phony house cures for the common cold, like having a lobster hanging from your nose by the pincers or submerging your feet in a boiled urine-and-artichoke mixture. The only possible result of this discussion is frustration and enmity between everyone involved.

My apparently unwarranted faith in the rationality of the average person tends to lead me into these conversations, but for once, I'm going to have reason lead me out.

 

[Minish]

*pops in* Since I believe in reincarnation -- of sorts (I don't think you can reincarnate as anything not human) -- I think the most likely thing after death is some sort of waiting period before the next life. I just believe that the energy that is life doesn't just frazzle out upon death. Whether or not a 'soul' transfers from one body to a baby's I'm not sure of, but at the very least I think perhaps the life 'energy' is reformed into new life... uh, sort of. Yeah. >_>

As I'm aware this is faith rather than actual scientific thought, it doesn't make much sense. XP

And I don't blindly follow anything thinking it is DEFINITELY true, because, obviously, I wouldn't know -- so it's most likely there isn't anything after life. Or at least nothing that we would experience consciously? I dunno.

I detest the idea of a heaven-like afterlife. Life is not a trial. And it shouldn't be assumed it's an ordeal, either. That just removes a lot of the necessity for morals, at the same time as saying what you do in life determines what happens after.

 

[J.T.]

Animals were made for your personal enjoyment and nutrition. God gave us control over the earth and everything.

fuck

Michael Jackson RIP 1958-2009... at least the kids are safe!

you

The Bible uses the objective to prove the subjective. The Bible was way ahead of it's time, take for example Job 26:7 "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." Ancient mythology always said that the Earth was being lifted up by something, such as a god, or sitting on another surface. In the ancient world, this surely would have been a radical concept that science has proved true today.

And that's just one example.

What?

DID YOU HEAR WHAT I FRIGGIN' SAID?!!? It's not whether or not you just accept Christ, you have to actually pursue His teachings and follow His will for your life.

The Bible has so many contradictions in it, it's nearly impossible to follow "His will" your whole life.

And just to let you know, Hitler killed jews, retards, and homosexuals because of his Darwinian perspectives; he thought what he was doing was right because he was helping the human race progress past these "deformations."

Now, please don't get me wrong, I know Darwinism doesn't automatically = Nazi, but it all did come off of Darwinism.

*face-motherfucking-palm*

If he did, and he didn't for fuck's sake get better source material, he completely missed everything about evolution's whole natural selection process. Plus, he had Darwin's works banned, so yeah, no.

The Bible doesn't say anything about those who have never heard of Christ, but we know that God is just and fair. To those who havn't heard, they will be judged according to what they do know.

So those who don't know about Christ will be judged by what they know about Christ.

Wait what.

Well, yes, I am saying that they are complex machines, but that's not to say they don't matter. They all play an important part of the grand design of the ecosystems God has created. They are wonderful creatures, they just don't have souls.

Super. Now prove that we humans have souls as well.

Oh, you don't see! When you've lived your whole life pursuing Him, and delight yourself in the Lord as the Bible says, there's just nothing greater you can imagin than being in his presence praising His holiness. I'm sorry, I just can't seem to find the words for what I want to say.

Oh man! I can't wait until I become a mindless cheerleader for the grand jackass of the universe! Freedom is slavery! War is peace! Ignorance is strength!

This kind of thing is why I wouldn't worship God even if I thought he existed.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

I'd quite like an afterlife but I don't think there is one and the only form of reincarnation I will ever experience is the eventual recycling of the components of my body into the components for another living thing.

 

[Aura Cobalt]

This was bugging me so much I couldn't help just logging in and posting. There is just one thing I want to straighten out before I go. I will be attempting to explain what I was going to say when I "didn't have the words to say what I wanted to say" before. I find this a bit painful to explain, so sorry if I screw up.

God is, by very definition, love, magnificense, joy, purity, etc. etc. There is nothing of any of these things without God, and any time one of these things is present in something, it is God Himself. Our endeavor is to make ourselves more and more like Him, and to have more and more of His character ingrained in our soul, but always we keep our individuality. Since God is pure, He cannot be in the same presence as Evil. Heaven is the ultimate manifestation of Him with the complete absence of Evil.

Worship, at its truest, is communion. In heaven, when we are at one with the God of all that is good, "mindlesness" just doesn't fit. I can't imagine anything but a flurry emotions of happiness, love, fulfillment, and joy, with maybe even a little sorrow and sadness added into the mix. I personally sure would rather that than to become nothing more.

Of course, you can reply to this, just be aware that I will not read it. Sorry if I'm going off topic, but this being my last word I just want to say to keep your minds open to the possibility of a supernatural world and just see where you end up in life. :)

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

But God is evil in the Old Testament. There are countless times where he kills innocents or makes the Israelites kill innocents for no reason.

 

[Doctor Jimmy]

Seriously, guys, no one gives a shit. You're Christian? Good for you. You believe that women are useless, the world is flat, and animals are for our own personal enjoyment? Have fun with that. You think there's another life at the end of the tunnel where everything you're ever wanted lies, and you get to live happily ever after? Sure, go for it.

See, it doesn't matter what the other person believes in. We all have different beliefs, and unless we accept our differences, stop arguing, and move on, we're all just going to kill ourselves. So, let's be good children, hold hands, and get along. That's what Jesus taught us, right?

 

[GameFreakerZero]

God is, by very definition, love, magnificense, joy, purity, etc. etc. There is nothing of any of these things without God, and any time one of these things is present in something, it is God Himself.

I know you're not going to read this (probably) but I just want to say that I hate this. I hate the idea that all the positive emotions that humans feel have to come from a fantastical deity rather than ourselves and each other. It's completely unappreciative of ourselves and our fellow human beings to credit the joys of our lives not to each other but to some deity with an inferiority complex.

I personally sure would rather that than to become nothing more.

Of course people would. I'm sure everyone here would love to live forever in a paradise that fit their needs, or have some sort of alternative to not living on but the thing is you have to come to terms with the fact that there likely isn't a place like that and there likely isn't an afterlife. It isn't a question of what you want more or what you would prefer, it's a question of what is more likely going to happen and unfortunately ceasing to be seems to be the probable outcome.

Hence, you should live your life to your fullest and not be banking on the possibility of an unlikely eternity.

See, it doesn't matter what the other person believes in. We all have different beliefs, and unless we accept our differences, stop arguing, and move on, we're all just going to kill ourselves. So, let's be good children, hold hands, and get along.

While I agree that shutting up about our differences and accepting everyone for who they are is what humanity should be aiming for; keep in mind that 1. This is the debating forum so being in complete agreement and respecting each others beliefs is sort of counter productive to the aims of the forum, 2. These different beliefs are the things that usually cause people to notice their differences and argue.

 

[Tarvos]

Even if solace, morality, and inspiration all come from God, it merely makes his existence desirable. It is no proof of his existence that we want him to exist because else we are but helpless little buggers incapable of keeping ourselves under control. I find it despicable that you cannot be moral unless someone is telling you that from above.