Please stop using joke pronouns

[octobr]

Is it honestly that difficult just to have the same for everybody (who doesn't want he/she)?

We could make a poll / vote / something idk

Well, yes! It is! Because not everyone is the same. It's like, in a way, saying that everything that isn't red or blue is yellow. I mean, sure, you could say that, and a lot of it may be yellow, but there's also a lot of things that definitely are NOT yellow. Pronouns and gender are hard to understand but they're rather important. Not everyone is an 'it' or an 'e.'

 

[Adriane]

He's probably confusing the pronoun drop-down box with "he", "she", "it" and "any" with a gender box. In which case I fully support the idea: most people identify as simply male or female, and if you're willing to identify as male or female there is absolutely no reason you can't just select "he" or "she" accordingly and be done with it.

Male and female are biological sexes, not identity quantifiers. "I am male (adjective)" is not the same as "I am a man (noun)". While we are raised to equate male-ness to masculinity (and female-ness to femininity), this is something we simply need to transcend.

 

[Butterfree]

...okay, I really missed the memo where "male" and "female" can only refer to biological sex and not gender. Regardless, my point had nothing to do with that; it was about how if your identified gender has an accepted pronoun which is in the drop-down box, then you should just select the pronoun from the drop-down box and leave the text field alone.

 

[Eloi]

Male and female are biological sexes, not identity quantifiers. "I am male (adjective)" is not the same as "I am a man (noun)". While we are raised to equate male-ness to masculinity (and female-ness to femininity), this is something we simply need to transcend.

Well, yes, in the specialized-terminology of gender studies, but in ordinary language, male and female are often used as identity makers, and even in some gender studies (see also: Male-to-Female/Female-to-Male Transsexual person).

And we weren't "raised" to recognize this, its just a pattern for the majority of human beings here. It allegedly being universal is the socially created hyperbole of the actual pattern.

 

[Adriane]

Well, yes, in the specialized-terminology of gender studies, but in ordinary language, male and female are often used as identity makers, and even in some gender studies (see also: Male-to-Female/Female-to-Male Transsexual person).

I think you just answered yourself here.

And we weren't "raised" to recognize this, its just a pattern for the majority of human beings here. It allegedly being universal is the socially created hyperbole of the actual pattern.

You can't possibly believe this? Gender roles and language are societal constructs.

 

[Eloi]

I think you just answered yourself here.

It doesn't, because transsexual people don't actually transition between sexes. There is no sex change going on, as that is currently impossible with modern science. Yes, physical characteristics of sex are changed, but not the sex itself. Does this matter for identification purposes? No, because gender exists and should be used for such things.

You can't possibly believe this? Gender roles and language are societal constructs.

If gender is just a societal construct, it is an omnipresent one that defines all interactions with anyone you could ever meet, and thus it doesn't matter practically whether it is or not in daily life.

Now, if it is somehow not real, than that would be blaming transsexual people's parent(s) or guardian(s) for how they raised them instead of it being a physical condition of the brain, which suggests transsexuality is someone's fault and can be avoided somehow, and possibly even changed. This is a horribly destructive belief that harms people, and thus actually does matter. Because we don't actually know, I prefer to assume the belief that harms less people- that is, gender is created by brain structure and not societal interactions.

 

[Adriane]

It doesn't, because transsexual people don't actually transition between sexes. There is no sex change going on, as that is currently impossible with modern science. Yes, physical characteristics of sex are changed, but not the sex itself. Does this matter for identification purposes? No, because gender exists and should be used for such things.

It is an unfortunate limitation of what we can actually do, yes. It doesn't change that male and female are used to refer to sex. That is why they are trans sexual and not just "female" (instead of "male-to-female").

If gender is just a societal construct, it is an omnipresent one that defines all interactions with anyone you could ever meet, and thus it doesn't matter practically whether it is or not in daily life.

... yes. Yes it is. This is why it's such a huge problem.

Now, if it is somehow not real, than that would be blaming transsexual people's parent(s) or guardian(s) for how they raised them instead of it being a physical condition of the brain, which suggests transsexuality is someone's fault and can be avoided somehow, and possibly even changed.

Surprise, how a person is raised is a huge factor in diagnosing psychological issues and disorders. I'd rather not go into details, but I will point out that my childhood was completely miserable.

Very young children do not come into this world knowing the difference between a boy and a girl. This is excessively overlearnt during the most significant developmental years. Boys have short hair and play with boy toys. Girls have long hair and wear skirts and like pink. Kids see this on TV. Kids see this in stores. Kids see this every day until it's ingrained.

If a child exhibits non-cisgendered behaviour, and it is never discouraged (i.e. by parents, close friends, learning environment), the child will not likely grow up to have a problem with their personality and behaviour because nothing ever told them it's "wrong".

 

[Eloi]

It is an unfortunate limitation of what we can actually do, yes. It doesn't change that male and female are used to refer to sex. That is why they are trans sexual and not just "female" (instead of "male-to-female").

I think the reason why the terminology is like this is because it was not created to be inclusive to trans* people, or with recognition of the differences between sex and gender, or what those mean. Its just outdated words we still use for ease of use, they don't rationalization to be justified.

... yes. Yes it is. This is why it's such a huge problem.

But interacting as a gender I feel I am is really awesome though. Its awesome for a lot people. I don't see what the problem is.

Surprise, how a person is raised is a huge factor in diagnosing psychological issues and disorders. I'd rather not go into details, but I will point out that my childhood was completely miserable.

Yes, when it comes to emotional interaction, they are. Gender is not based in emotional interaction, but it does affect it, however, because its not based in emotional interaction, it is not a behavioral disorder caused by surroundings.

Very young children do not come into this world knowing the difference between a boy and a girl. This is excessively overlearnt during the most significant developmental years. Boys have short hair and play with boy toys. Girls have long hair and wear skirts and like pink. Kids see this on TV. Kids see this in stores. Kids see this every day until it's ingrained.

Okay, well, where did all of these concepts come from then? Did people create them ex nilho? Why did we create them? What's their function?

If a child exhibits non-cisgendered behaviour, and it is never discouraged (i.e. by parents, close friends, learning environment), the child will not likely grow up to have a problem with their personality and behaviour because nothing ever told them it's "wrong".

That's not true. I grew up not discouraged (as I had a different understanding of what gender was, as I thought it was wide-spread differences in behavior and appearance by choice of up-keep that roughly divide into 'male' and 'female', while names and pronouns are decided at birth, so I decided to be a girl in behavior and appearance which never got discouraged because I never challenged names or pronouns),and I was just horrified by adolescence, as it stole away the freedom of deciding the upkeep of my gender, which caused a rather sudden deepening of my depression. So, I don't need people to tell me its wrong. I just felt wrong because of how bodies work, and how my mind works.

 

[Adriane]

I think the reason why the terminology is like this is because it was not created to be inclusive to trans* people, or with recognition of the differences between sex and gender, or what those mean. Its just outdated words we still use for ease of use, they don't rationalization to be justified.

Connotations and denotations of words change over time. With trans* awareness rising, it is important to exemplify the difference, particularly as not everybody knows the difference between someone who is trans gender or trans sexual.

But interacting as a gender I feel I am is really awesome though. Its awesome for a lot people. I don't see what the problem is.

It's completely unnecessary and it does cause a lot of pain to a lot of people. You should be equally or more satisfied interacting as yourself than as a girl. Gender is an unnecessary construct that creates an unnecessary division.

Yes, when it comes to emotional interaction, they are. Gender is not based in emotional interaction, but it does affect it, however, because its not based in emotional interaction, it is not a behavioral disorder caused by surroundings.

And you know this how?

Okay, well, where did all of these concepts come from then? Did people create them ex nilho? Why did we create them? What's their function?

Years and years of reinforcement. During the hunter-gatherer era, sex characteristics laid out a foundation that would later develop into gender roles after civilisations were created during the agricultural revolution. The majority of early civilisations were patriarchal, and future societies continued to be patriarchal. However, we have since evolved past this; gender roles are simply unnecessary. Men are perfectly capable of raising children and women are perfectly capable of pursuing a career or leading a nation. It's an extraneous division that serves no real function. Why should possessing a vagina give you an all-exclusive pass to wear a dress? Does having a beard make you look like you match your truck?

That's not true. I grew up not discouraged (as I had a different understanding of what gender was, as I thought it was wide-spread differences in behavior and appearance by choice of up-keep that roughly divide into 'male' and 'female', while names and pronouns are decided at birth

This is wrong on so many levels. It is the #1 reason why gender roles are so intact.

so I decided to be a girl in behavior and appearance which never got discouraged because I never challenged names or pronouns),and I was just horrified by adolescence, as it stole away the freedom of deciding the upkeep of my gender, which caused a rather sudden deepening of my depression. So, I don't need people to tell me its wrong. I just felt wrong because of how bodies work, and how my mind works.

And now you've completely lost me.

 

[Eloi]

Connotations and denotations of words change over time. With trans* awareness rising, it is important to exemplify the difference, particularly as not everybody knows the difference between someone who is trans gender or trans sexual.

Right, by you were discussing specific and precise meanings.

It's completely unnecessary and it does cause a lot of pain to a lot of people. You should be equally or more satisfied interacting as yourself than as a girl. Gender is an unnecessary construct that creates an unnecessary division.

But myself is a girl. Not primarily, but its a characteristic.

And you know this how

?
Experience.

Years and years of reinforcement. During the hunter-gatherer era, sex characteristics laid out a foundation that would later develop into gender roles after civilisations were created during the agricultural revolution. The majority of early civilisations were patriarchal,

The Old Europe supposed in Kurgan hypothesis is matriarchal, and preceded patriarchal culture that invaded upon the older culture. So, I don't believe patriarchy is a natural extension of sex characteristics.

However, we have since evolved past this; gender roles are simply unnecessary. Men are perfectly capable of raising children and women are perfectly capable of pursuing a career or leading a nation. It's an extraneous division that serves no real function. Why should possessing a vagina give you an all-exclusive pass to wear a dress? Does having a beard make you look like you match your truck?

Yes, but gender stereotypes are not gender.

This is wrong on so many levels. It is the #1 reason why gender roles are so intact.

...Yes, I know, I was saying these were the incorrect things I believed as a child that reinforced my non-cisgender behavior without actually recognizing as it as such.

And now you've completely lost me.

Um. How?

 

[Medical Meccanica]

Why isn't this locked yet? It's turning into a gigantic clusterfuck of idiots and people who take gender identity way too seriously.

The answer to this has been obvious all along - put what you SERIOUSLY want to be called in the pronoun field. I think keeping this thread open is just catering to the idiots who don't understand that some people don't identify with "he" or "she" and the trans community that I mentioned in my other post who feel the need to flip three different kinds of shits whenever someone doesn't understand their worldview.

 

[Eloi]

Why isn't this locked yet?

I support a split into debate hall.

It's turning into a gigantic clusterfuck of idiots and people who take gender identity way too seriously.

Um. Thanks for passively aggressively calling me an idiot and trivializing my problems. 'preciate it.

The answer to this has been obvious all along - put what you SERIOUSLY want to be called in the pronoun field.

Yes, a split into a different topic would be good seeing as this has been resolved.

I think keeping this thread open is just catering to the idiots who don't understand that some people don't identify with "he" or "she" and the trans community that I mentioned in my other post who feel the need to flip three different kinds of shits whenever someone doesn't understand their worldview.

Sorry for caring about problems that affect me not you. I should only care about problems that affect you. Makes sense.

 

[Adriane]

But myself is a girl. Not primarily, but its a characteristic.

Right. If this element were eliminated, absolutely nothing about you would change.

?
Experience.

My experience shows otherwise.

The Old Europe supposed in Kurgan hypothesis is matriarchal, and preceded patriarchal culture that invaded upon the older culture. So, I don't believe patriarchy is a natural extension of sex characteristics.

You missed the point. We live in a patriarchal society today; gender roles still exist today. They are slowly disappearing, but they are still there.

Yes, but gender stereotypes are not gender.

It is to a lot of people. Boys who act "girly" get called "sissies"; both terms evoke gender.

...Yes, I know, I was saying these were the incorrect things I believed as a child that reinforced my non-cisgender behavior without actually recognizing as it as such.

Wait, are you a trans girl? For some reason, I had registered you as cis gender. My apologies.

 

[Jolty]

ok I came in here like 10 mins ago and Meccanica wasn't banned then so I assume she was banned for that post
seriously??????

she has a point though
half (if not more) of the trans community on this forum DO take things way too goddamn seriously and will freak out over the most retarded of things. for example, the t-shirt fiasco in the "NY legalised gay marriage" thread

jesus christ stop beating everyone to death with political correctness
I get that you're trying to educate people and shit but a lot of you (Alvyren especially) do it IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD and it's beyond irritating

 

[Eloi]

(Making replies assuming an eventual split into a debate thread about the validity of the concept of gender.)

Right. If this element were eliminated, absolutely nothing about you would change.

Well, yes, but there is no way to feasibly eliminate this element in my lifespan, nor am I aware of anyone actively trying to do so that are in powerful positions to initiate such a movement with enough momentum to do so.

My experience shows otherwise.

Hence anecdotal evidence being invalid in debates. =/

You missed the point. We live in a patriarchal society today; gender roles still exist today. They are slowly disappearing, but they are still there.

That is true, but I am saying gender does not originate from a patriarchal society based on sex characteristics, which is fundamental to your model of gender being a concept invented by human minds and not a concept caused by the human mind.

It is to a lot of people. Boys who act "girly" get called "sissies"; both terms evoke gender.

Yes, but majority belief is not truth.

Wait, are you a trans girl? For some reason, I had registered you as cis gender. My apologies.

Um, s'okay, no problems here. ^^; I tried to come out as such in the last Grr thread because I implied otherwise on the forums beforehand but it suddenly vanished and yeah.


_______

ok I came in here like 10 mins ago and Meccanica wasn't banned then so I assume she was banned for that post
seriously??????

I think it was because of the mean-spiritedness of the post as opposed to the points raised.

half (if not more) of the trans community on this forum DO take things way too goddamn seriously and will freak out over the most retarded of things.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think years of having your problems trivialized and systematic oppression will do that to a person.

jesus christ stop beating everyone to death with political correctness

One cannot have too much of treating people in general nicely, methinks.

for example, the t-shirt fiasco in the "NY legalised gay marriage" thread [...] I get that you're trying to educate people and shit but a lot of you (Alvyren especially) do it IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD and it's beyond irritating

I will concede that a lot of off-topic debate prompted by on-topic stuff does occur especially related to that, which I thing would be solved nicely by a specific topic to discuss it.

 

[Adriane]

ok I came in here like 10 mins ago and Meccanica wasn't banned then so I assume she was banned for that post
seriously??????

50 points is a ban.

she has a point though
half (if not more) of the trans community on this forum DO take things way too goddamn seriously

Excuse me for taking a pivotal element of my well-being seriously.

and will freak out over the most retarded of things. for example, the t-shirt fiasco in the "NY legalised gay marriage" thread

Hi, I'm mildly retarded.

jesus christ stop beating everyone to death with political correctness
I get that you're trying to educate people and shit but a lot of you (Alvyren especially) do it IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD and it's beyond irritating

You're irritating. Also please don't misuse "political correctness".

Aaaand forking thread.

EDIT: ... the option seems to have vanished. Is it missing for anyone else, too?

 

[Jolty]

Excuse me for taking a pivotal element of my well-being seriously.

no there's taking something important seriously, then there's being goddamn annoying about it
having a go at someone for EVERY SINGLE LITTLE THING is being annoying about it, and a lot of the time it isn't even relevant!

Hi, I'm mildly retarded.

gosh I'm sorry for offending you so badly
are there any other words I should stop using just in case I offend people
...are you actually not-offended by anything at all????? just wondering like

You're irritating. Also please don't misuse "political correctness".

PLEASE EDUCATE ME ON HOW I AM MISUSING MORE WORDS.
AND PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO STOP BEING IRRITATING. I MUST LEARN FROM THE MASTER OF BEING PERFECTLY NON-IRRITATING.

 

[Eloi]

@Jolty's-most-recent-post-as-of-time-of-writing: I think that ethically, being offended by something is a reaction to a behavior, that is, being offensive. Being offensive is thus an active behavior that can be judged as right or wrong, wherein being offended is not generally applicable to such value judgement because its a (negative) reaction to behavior, not a behavior in-of-itself. Hence, you can't be in the wrong for being offended generally, but you can be in the wrong for being offensive. However, picking when to express being offended is a choice subject to such value judgement.

 

[Karkat Vantas]

Hi, I'm mildly retarded.

Not gonna lie-- I am completely confused as to why you would be insulted by people saying retarded.

I can equate it to the misuse of the word gay; as a member of the LGBT community, do I dislike the usage of the word gay? Definitely. Am I insulted by it? Not at all; it is simply too widespread of a word to have spasms of RIGHTEOUS OUTRAGE whenever I hear it.

On a related note, Ms. Meccanica has Asperger's.

 

[Tailsy]

Locking this thread because it has been derailed into a completely pointless argument that helps nobody.