D/P/Pt PRNG Abuse: Right or Wrong?

[Dewgong]

Yeah but that involves having to crack open 200 different eggs, whereas all those eggs have 510 unspent EV's. Just breeding.. Is a normal part of the game.

...okay, so you object breeding for ivs? why?

gah. i don't get you sometimes.

 

[Felidire]

If you object to breeding for IVs, do you also object to breeding for natures?

I do not object to breeding; I do object to this.

(in fact, they are working on how to manipulate IV's using DPPt's broken RNG,

Unless I viewed this wrong - but then it's the way it is written. If this is referring to using semi-flawless parents to boost the chance for better IV's - then it's not a broken RNG (unless nintendo has said as such). I had eevees with everstones in the daycare for over a year, so i'd be a hypocrite to even suggest that it's wrong.

...okay, so you object breeding for ivs? why?

gah. i don't get you sometimes.

Nope I don't, did anyone actually pick up on the fact that I bred for IV's for over a year? - It'd be kinda stupid for me to say that I bred for good IV's for that long, and then that i'm against it. =x



--

Ok, so if the "Broken RNG" is "being able to influence some IV's by using the parent pokemon" Then there's nothing even broken about it.

 

[Psyburn]

Well...if they find out a way to generate wild pkmn easier...hell I might try it.

Its WAAAAY to tedious getting pokemon in this game.

 

[magnetflygon]

personally I'm fine if others do it, if they brag about them, they'd be idiots. I'm very happy that i finally found a shiny through normal means and that I have a rather good jolteon as well, has Ivs of HP:19, att:21, def:2, sp att: 22, sp def:31, speed:31, also, grass type hidden power. Thing is, I just like to play the game, breed good natures on pokermon and give them good ev spreads. Shininess and Ivs, I just hope for good luck, :P. In all honesty though, I'd prefer not to face people with pokemon that have stats that are practically hacked.
With nature breeding though, I wouldn't see how that could be considered exploiting, they practically give stuff like that away.
Evs have also beebn revealed at least by this point of time outside of the websites, I checked in my platinum guide, it tells you about EVs, so obviously those were meant to be 'exploited'.

 

[Aisling]

I checked in my platinum guide, it tells you about EVs, so obviously those were meant to be 'exploited'.

Actually, that was just Nintendo finally giving up on trying to hide the game's hidden mechanics. :B But yeah...

I see the point Felidire is trying to make, but instead of wanting to impose my sense of fair play (don't try to make an advantage for yourself through a not-third-party-device way?; and I know this isn't exactly what you're trying to do but I dunno how else to put it), I'd just do it myself if I was that worried about being overwhelmed.

I can't figure out how to abuse the RNG for good IVs as far as eggs go, anyway. I punch in the numbers into the RNG Reporter, ask for it to come up with x nature and, say, 20 or above IVs for x stat, and it always comes up with like 0/100000 results. Does this mean it's not possible or am I doing it wrong?

 

[Adriane]

it's not. i assume that we weren't ever suppose to know about the PRNG in the first place, considering it's hidden from the game completely. that includes EV training, hidden stat modifiers, certain rules of breeding, etc.

Given the sheer popularity of EV training and the widespread knowledge of their existence, as well as IVs, they're not trying to "hide" it anymore; in fact, the official guide (for Platinum) mentions EVs and gives suggestions as to where to train for EVs.

There is an NPC that assesses Pokemons' IVs, gives an overall rating (meh, decent, above average, superior) and identifies which IV is the highest. Of course, he doesn't explicitly say "Your IVs suck! The highest is Attack with 7!", but he's a useful guy. (And yes, I am aware this NPC existed in Emerald)

EDIT: Failure on my part. I thought I was already reading the last page >:(

 

[Felidire]

I can't figure out how to abuse the RNG for good IVs as far as eggs go, anyway.

Yeah, so the people who do know get that advantage over you.

"Your IVs suck! The highest is Attack with 7!"

*kid runs off crying*

Rofl~ ,xD

 

[magnetflygon]

If you feel like being evil though, when facing an rng abuser, just hack a shuckle, give it perfect IVs and a def/sp def boosting nature, then give it a moveset of baton pass, dragon dance, calm mind, defense curl. You can see where that leads to.

 

[surskitty]

You seem to be under the impression that Shuckle can take hits.

 

[magnetflygon]

With shuckle, all I can say is this, check its defense stats, only other pokemon that gets a single stat that high is blissey/chansey.

 

[Aisling]

Yeah, so the people who do know get that advantage over you.

I was kind of baiting for an explanation as to how, but I guess it didn't work. :[ Wrong place to ask anyway I guess.

It is true they would have an advantage, but I personally have pretty good luck with IVs when it comes to wild Pokemon. I'd just breed a batch of five eggs from decent parents, hatch them, check them, pick the best one and then apply my own skills to it... It's not really such a huge advantage, a couple IV points (well, more than a couple with perfect 31s all the way across- but I would assume that would take thousands upon thousands of happiness app-taps, do people actually do that?), is it? It's my opinion (albeit uneducated) that when it all comes down to it, what matters the most is your skills and a little bit of luck. Are IVs really such a huge advantage to warrant a fuss?

 

[surskitty]

With shuckle, all I can say is this, check its defense stats, only other pokemon that gets a single stat that high is blissey/chansey.

Check its HP, dude. It's still good at dying in one hit.

 

[Felidire]

I'd just breed a batch of five eggs from decent parents, hatch them, check them, pick the best one and then apply my own skills to it... It's not really such a huge advantage, a couple IV points

Yeah that's what I used to do, that's normal; in other words you're content having a few 31's. But it does makes a difference when they're battling you with multiple pokemon who have like 31 all over - and that's kind of lame considering how hard it is to get a full 31 spread - and how easily they got it for their entire team.

You seem to be under the impression that Shuckle can take hits.

He can take hits perfectly fine, I use him in Double battles.. He just can't take Super Effective hits very well.

We're smarter than that though, we'd just give a sableye wonder guard.

 

[Negrek]

If this is referring to using semi-flawless parents to boost the chance for better IV's - then it's not a broken RNG (unless nintendo has said as such). I had eevees with everstones in the daycare for over a year, so i'd be a hypocrite to even suggest that it's wrong.

You need at least one parent with one perfect IV in order to get six flawless IV's. The more perfect IV's there are available, the less time you will most likely have to wait in order to get your spread. Having to leave your game on for hours/days generally makes going with very low-IV parents inadvisable.

Ok, so if the "Broken RNG" is "being able to influence some IV's by using the parent pokemon" Then there's nothing even broken about it.

All that this method does is calculate what the seed of the RNG will be at any given frame, which allows you to extrapolate what random IV's the baby will be given, as well as what IV(s) it will inherit from its parents.

I can't figure out how to abuse the RNG for good IVs as far as eggs go, anyway. I punch in the numbers into the RNG Reporter, ask for it to come up with x nature and, say, 20 or above IVs for x stat, and it always comes up with like 0/100000 results. Does this mean it's not possible or am I doing it wrong?

You're most likely doing it wrong, though I can't say how from your description.

With regards to the number of taps people do--you should usually be able to get in the low hundreds; if you only get numbers higher than that, you're doing something wrong. I don't even know if >200 is common.

Yeah, so the people who do know get that advantage over you.

People who know about and use EV's well have an advantage over people who don't, and it's much greater than the advantage garnered from slightly higher IV's, even multiple 31's.

If you feel like being evil though, when facing an rng abuser, just hack a shuckle, give it perfect IVs and a def/sp def boosting nature, then give it a moveset of baton pass, dragon dance, calm mind, defense curl. You can see where that leads to.

Because abuse of the RNG is totally analogous to creating impossible movesets!

 

[Felidire]

Having to leave your game on for hours/days generally makes going with very low-IV parents inadvisable.

Hold up, what does leaving the game on for hours/days have to do with anything? '.`

People who know about and use EV's well have an advantage over people who don't, and it's much greater than the advantage garnered from slightly higher IV's, even multiple 31's.

Well yes, EV's = 127 stats, IV's = potential total of 186.

Whereas IV's are less likely to contribute more stats, EV's are 127 stats that are randomly (or not randomly) spread - every pokemon has them if you level them without using 99x rare candies.

 

[Negrek]

Having to leave your game on for hours/days generally makes going with very low-IV parents inadvisable.

The RNG that controls IV inheritance runs along with the game's frames--it is called every 1/60th of a second. Therefore, IV inheritance is time-dependent (although you can mess with your game's clock to get closer to an ideal frame). In order to get the right IV spread, you must be able to time yourself and press A accurately to 1/60th of a second.

Whereas IV's are less likely to contribute more stats, EV's are 127 stats that are randomly (or not randomly) spread - every pokemon has them if you level them without using 99x rare candies.

Every pokémon has IV's, too, however you level them. Not sure what you meant here.

 

[Felidire]

Every pokémon has IV's, too, however you level them. Not sure what you meant here.

I mean every pokemon in the game, -every single one-, has 127 points from EV's. You could be an expert gamer, or a complete newb, both people's pokemon have those 127 stats.

IV's.. the newb gets 1/23/6/4/19/25. The expert gets a rediculously high spread of IV's on all his pokemon because he decides to: "(mess with his game's clock to get closer to an ideal frame)"

I'm sorry, I just can't compare IV's to EV's, to me they have absolutely nothing in common.

Do you consider "messing with your game's clock" in order to gain high IV's as cheating?

 

[Butterfree]

The point of EV training is which stats get those 127 total stat points. If you have a special sweeper, every effort point in Attack is quite simply wasted - heck, they make you inflict more confusion damage on yourself - and if you don't have a lot of effort points in Speed, you'll effectively lose a turn against Pokémon you should have been able to outspeed. The random EV spread you get if you don't train with regard to EVs is greatly inferior to the spreads you'll aim for when EV training. It may always be the same total number of stat points, but that does not make the total advantage of the EV trainer any less than the total advantage of a perfect-IV Pokémon.

 

[surskitty]

Perfect-IV Pokemon don't even help you that much, given that it's unlikely that you'd be using something completely terrible anyway. IVs affect stats considerably, but that's 31 points in a given direction where you're fairly likely to have gotten a lot of those there already.

 

[Negrek]

I mean every pokemon in the game, -every single one-, has 127 points from EV's. You could be an expert gamer, or a complete newb, both people's pokemon have those 127 stats.

No. Pokémon start with zero EV's, guaranteed, whereas the chance of getting straight-zero IV's is as unlikely as getting straight-31's. It is impossible for some pokémon to get any EV's at all (for example, legal Arceus); pokémon that have not been intensively EV-trained will probably not have their EV's maxed until around lv. 50 or so. "Every pokémon" does not have them, and if you're really a newb, you're less likely to have as many as you could, much less have them in useful places.

IV's.. the newb gets 1/23/6/4/19/25. The expert gets a rediculously high spread of IV's on all his pokemon because he decides to: "(mess with his game's clock to get closer to an ideal frame)"

Not necessarily, again. Because the newb is relying on random stat generation, they aren't necessarily going to have abysmal stats; after all, about 1/6 wild pokémon have at least one perfect IV. But this is really irrelevant anyway--do you honestly think that the person who went for RNG manipulation is going to win against the "complete newb" just because they have higher IV's? If someone is *that newbish,* I find that extremely unlikely. Anyone who cares enough about battle to acquire some degree of PvP skill is going to at least go for a couple perfect IV's--perfect attack and speed, for example. It only takes around half an hour of breeding to get that, and much less if you start with excellent parents. The person who is well-versed enough in game mechanics to do PRNG manipulation is almost definitely of an at least mildly competitive bent (if they're doing it for IV's), so they're likely to have an extremely large advantage over the newb to begin with. The only time that I see this technique making an actual difference is against someone who is at least a moderately qualified battler with decent pokémon; I don't think this technique makes any real difference to the newb in terms of battling.

Do you consider "messing with your game's clock" in order to gain high IV's as cheating?

That depends on your definition of cheating, which could be an entirely different debate. This isn't a discussion about whether or not PRNG manipulation is cheating, but rather whether or not it is "wrong." Obviously, I don't have a problem with people who mess with their game's clock--for any reason, whether because they want to have a certain swarming pokémon appear for them today, or because they want a better seed.

Whether or not resetting your clock is cheating is irrelevant to this debate in any case, because you can do PRNG manipulation quite cheerily without laying a hand on your time setting.