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Abortion

No one is saying that the father's input would override the mother's. This seems to be how you're parsing this, however.
 
They are saying that the father should have input regardless of the mother's circumstances.

If she didn't ask for the father's opinion in the first place, why is she going to value his opinion at all if he does talk about it with her?

Better question: How do you plan to enforce this whole "father should have input" thing?
 
Retsu said:
It should be the mother's decision as to whether the father has any involvement at all.
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Oh, hey, the father wants to be there, but the mother says "NOPE, FUCK YOU". Gee, thanks for reversing sex discrimination there, Furret.
 
The father should have some input, certainly, but not the ability to override the mother's choice. Of course, it's the mother's parasite to do with as she wishes, but the father should get a little bit of input. See if they can work out something they'll both be happy with, idk.
 
Valor said:
Oh, hey, the father wants to be there, but the mother says "NOPE, FUCK YOU". Gee, thanks for reversing sex discrimination there, Furret.
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Discrimination? When you have to carry around a leech for 9 months, go through the physical pain of birth and afterbirth, all while being a hormonal mess, then you can have as much input as you want.

Teh Ebil Snorlax presents a very good question.
 
mother's decision is final obv but there should be some situation where the couple should try to reach a compromise.
 
I agree with Retsu. If the mother wants to listen to the father's view on it, she can. If she doesn't want to, she shouldn't have to. But the father's input is ultimately pointless when the mother is making the decision.
 
Holy christ Furret no one is saying that it should be legally required for the father to have any say whatsoever. What they're trying to say is that it's best for each couple to decide together, since if the mother decides to keep the baby it would be up to both of them to raise it - so, if the father wants to keep it, and the mother's main reason for getting an abortion was that she was worried about lack of support on his side, hey presto, problem solved!
 
What do you want to do about enforcing it? Have the father sign a piece of paper saying "yeah we talked about it"?
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What the hell? Why are you making out this whole anti-male thing? It's like the man isn't even important if she gets pregnant. Uh, newsflash, it takes two people to get a woman pregnant.
Most women don't want to have to deal with all the hormonal junk and carrying a baby on their own. Most would actually like, uh, support? It's not as if the guy's going to come and say 'well you're preggers and you're keeping it and because I wear the pants that's final'. The guy should at least be able to talk about it with the woman and offer help or support. Help. What good will come from the woman going 'no fuck off I don't need your help'?

There's no reason for it except 'girl power' which in itself is a ridiculous notion as she has the power anyway. She's carrying a baby. Sure she'll have a final say but really to cut out her partner's input or support is just stupid.

If she didn't ask for the father's opinion in the first place, why is she going to value his opinion at all if he does talk about it with her?
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Where does this come from? I'm actually female, and fuck, if I got pregnant I'd sure as hell want to at least ask my partner what he thinks. You know why most pregnant mothers would value her partner's decision?
Uh maybe because she perhaps loves him (or at least likes him enough to have sex with)? There are very few women who upon discovering they're pregnant are going to just completely cut the guy out of the picture and not care about whether he wants to support her or not.

Honestly most people who get pregnant, accidentally or not, appreciate all the help they can get. It's not something anyone wants to go through alone.
 
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Furret. Ever seen a teenage mom with a child they had to raise alone and the guy bailing out?

That's why you want a guy to have a say and help her raise the goddamn child. That's why you need the father; it is his child and he is therefore responsible if the child will live. I am not saying any legalities; it is just common sense that if I and my partner made a baby together, I would want to know what the hell is gonna happen with it and what I can do to help my wife/girl/fuck buddy/whatever.

That's what we're talking about and nothing else. I don't need the final say whether the kid should live or die. What I would want is the knowledge that if she will have the child, I will offer my best to help raise it. Get it? It's not about who carries the baby. If you think pregnancy is hard, try actually raising a kid.
 
opaltiger said:
Holy christ Furret no one is saying that it should be legally required for the father to have any say whatsoever. What they're trying to say is that it's best for each couple to decide together, since if the mother decides to keep the baby it would be up to both of them to raise it - so, if the father wants to keep it, and the mother's main reason for getting an abortion was that she was worried about lack of support on his side, hey presto, problem solved!
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Actually, yes they are, that's where we're at at this point in the debate.

ultraviolet said:
What the hell? Why are you making out this whole anti-male thing? It's like the man isn't even important if she gets pregnant. Uh, newsflash, it takes two people to get a woman pregnant.
Most women don't want to have to deal with all the hormonal junk and carrying a baby on their own. Most would actually like, uh, support? It's not as if the guy's going to come and say 'well you're preggers and you're keeping it and because I wear the pants that's final'. The guy should at least be able to talk about it with the woman and offer help or support. Help. What good will come from the woman going 'no fuck off I don't need your help'?

There's no reason for it except 'girl power' which in itself is a ridiculous notion as she has the power anyway. She's carrying a baby. Sure she'll have a final say but really to cut out her partner's input or support is just stupid.
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Actually, I believe Furret asked why it would be necessary, he/she didn't say that all input should be cut off. People were saying that the father should get to have input by law and Furret said that whether the father gets any input should be at the discretion of the mother. If the mother wants the father's input, she can have it, if the mother doesn't, she shouldn't be legally forced to hear it. That's what we're debating about at this point in the debate.

ultraviolet said:
Where does this come from? I'm actually female, and fuck, if I got pregnant I'd sure as hell want to at least ask my partner what he thinks. You know why most pregnant mothers would value her partner's decision?
Uh maybe because she perhaps loves him (or at least likes him enough to have sex with)? There are very few women who upon discovering they're pregnant are going to just completely cut the guy out of the picture and not care about whether he wants to support her or not.
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Well, first of all, I personally wouldn't expect you to get pregnant from someone you didn't love, I know I don't know you very well but you seem like a sensible.
Secondly, yeah, I get the second bit but the point is some people were saying that the father should have the legal right to give input, which Furret, and I, were disagreeing with.

ultraviolet said:
Honestly most people who get pregnant, accidentally or not, appreciate all the help they can get. It's not something anyone wants to go through alone.
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Help =/= father.

... said:
What if the father wants to keep the baby?
What if the father does not want to keep the baby?

The mother may have to carry the baby around but I'm pretty sure most dads would help the mother with anything she needed. It's not like they chose to not carry it; either way, he's still one of the parents. My mom doesn't have any more power than my dad to decide what to do with me; they both have to do it together. This is like custody cases where there is a bias towards women. Why? 'Oh, she carried the baby, so she must be a better parent than the dad'.

I can understand why you say this (I know the father doesn't have to carry it) but the baby the mom carries is just as much the dad's baby as it is hers.
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We're arguing about abortion, not child custody. The power should rest solely with the mother. If the father had a say, and then disagreed, the only method of solving would be a foetus custody case, which wouldn't happen because, hey, the foetus is still attached to the woman and no power in the law can give one person control of another's body.

Watershed said:
Furret. Ever seen a teenage mom with a child they had to raise alone and the guy bailing out?

That's why you want a guy to have a say and help her raise the goddamn child. That's why you need the father; it is his child and he is therefore responsible if the child will live. I am not saying any legalities; it is just common sense that if I and my partner made a baby together, I would want to know what the hell is gonna happen with it and what I can do to help my wife/girl/fuck buddy/whatever.

That's what we're talking about and nothing else. I don't need the final say whether the kid should live or die. What I would want is the knowledge that if she will have the child, I will offer my best to help raise it. Get it? It's not about who carries the baby. If you think pregnancy is hard, try actually raising a kid.
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See what I said to opaltiger.
 
Where did anybody say about the legal implications of the father having input? I don't think anybody did. What people are trying to say is that it's ultimately silly for a woman to refuse any support the father might offer and just be pregnant alone, abortion or not. To do this it's actually in poor favor of the woman, who now carries all the responsibility of the child (abortion or not), even though it's entirely the responsibilty of both the mother and the father.
 
ultraviolet said:
Where did anybody say about the legal implications of the father having input? I don't think anybody did.
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Where did we say anything about an anti-male movement?
Oh wait, we didn't.

ultraviolet said:
What people are trying to say is that it's ultimately silly for a woman to refuse any support the father might offer and just be pregnant alone, abortion or not. To do this it's actually in poor favor of the woman, who now carries all the responsibility of the child (abortion or not), even though it's entirely the responsibilty of both the mother and the father.
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Our point has been said many times before. We are not forcing men to have absolutely no input.
I will state it once more; do not read it and again ignore it and/or claim it to be something else.

If the opinion of the father is valued by the mother, she will ask for it and they will converse. If the opinion of the father is not valued by the mother, there is no reason to force her to listen to the father.
 
i am pretty much supposing that any relationship of which a child is becoming has the parents on speaking terms about this shit, otherwise you've got more issues to worry about. if the mother and the father are fucking each other's lives up, the situation is naturally and inherently different.

if parents are on speaking terms about children it seems only natural to me that considering both of their lives will be affected in the future they will decide together
 
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