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ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (NEW ASB LEGEND/RANKINGS UPDATED)

Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

Oh, I see (I thought it was another battle)
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

Effercon said:
It has come to my attention that we have had a fixed ASB match. Therefore, I am docking 10 points from sreservoir's tally, and also awarding only 1 point for winning that battle, making it effectively a 12-point deduction. He (?) has until November 1, 2011 to appeal.
Click to expand...

Effercon said:
Uhh... no. Res set up the battlefield to give himself a clear advantage.
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okay, now that's hardly even true. the match wasn't fixed. perhaps it was biased to give an advantage to the strategy "get water absorb on everything, then spam surf"; that, I'd admit. no reason zackrai couldn't have done the same thing, though. there was a month and a half between challenge acceptance and battle; he certainly could (and should, I'd say) have been prepared. (I mean really, thinking of a strategy to go with my arena is fixing the battle? I shouldn't be held responsible for my opponent's incompetence!)

that said, there were basically three significant parts to that arena:

1. a source of water.
2. free rain.
3. water spout.

I'm fairly sure that, when you're accusing me of fixing the match, it's 3 you're complaining about. really, though, I'm inclined to say that the existence of a source of water was much more significant to my victory. being able to spam surf is much more significant, and I don't think anyone complains about the presence of water in arenas. a breakdown:

water spout: 24% each opponent.

four surfs: 14% each to each = 56% each.
fluffy's surf: 9% to each.

nothing else in affected by the arena. in any other arena, at the end of round 2 (assuming the same actions, working backwards without taking into account damage cap -- that is, ignoring rain and water spout), zackrai would have had some 47%/38%/47%, and I would have had some 62%/85%/84%. at that point, I could have commanded surf x 3 ~~ surf x 3; no amount of damage would have have actually knocked out any of mine, and the total damage there would have been some 11% x 3 + 7% x 3 = 54%, and that's before even taking into account Pinch's actions.

(I am ignoring the accuracy loss on thunder, because would only have affected the bidoof anyway, and would have just put it equal to the other two, still under 50%.)

furthermore: the challenge was issued 2011 08 18; for reference, the first time I tried selling a rare candy, and this exchange, both happened mid-september, so I don't think I had much reason to fix a match then. perhaps a "I have a water absorb poliwag, how about I write an arena that generates water-typed attacks", but since there's something appealing about a subtly kyogre-themed arena anyway ... I don't think so.



yeah, I'm not even sure what you're complaining about. sure, target-all moves are ludicrous in multiples, but I'm inclined to categorize role play shenanigans firmly under "game-controlling strategy" instead of "fixing the match." the rewards from that battle would have been ridiculous, yes, but that's more because the rules for multiples were broken than the arena.
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

Hmm... I don't really see how it was fixed.

If it was truly fixed, it would have been impossible for sres to lose. However, if the first Role Play was somehow blocked or a Gastro Acid negated the original Water Absorb early in Round One, sres' strategy would've fallen apart.

Also, would you say it was fixed if someone else put up the challenge and sres accepted it?
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

As the red of said battle, it was immediately clear just how much ass res was going to kick. This was mostly due to the Water Spout, actually; it had more BP than the Surf, as he was quick to correct me on when I mis-reffed it, so it healed more health, every other round, to all Pokemon on his side of the field. It was definitely fixed; he didn't disagree with Negrek's decision to deduct his EXP gain, and I'm pretty sure he admitted to it in the thread at some point.
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

This is something for Effercon and sreservoir to work out between themselves. If you feel like discussing it, please do so elsewhere.
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

Curious to know my ranking and stuff, if I have any.
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

sreservoir said:
okay, now that's hardly even true. the match wasn't fixed. perhaps it was biased to give an advantage to the strategy "get water absorb on everything, then spam surf"; that, I'd admit. no reason zackrai couldn't have done the same thing, though. there was a month and a half between challenge acceptance and battle; he certainly could (and should, I'd say) have been prepared. (I mean really, thinking of a strategy to go with my arena is fixing the battle? I shouldn't be held responsible for my opponent's incompetence!)

that said, there were basically three significant parts to that arena:

1. a source of water.
2. free rain.
3. water spout.

I'm fairly sure that, when you're accusing me of fixing the match, it's 3 you're complaining about. really, though, I'm inclined to say that the existence of a source of water was much more significant to my victory. being able to spam surf is much more significant, and I don't think anyone complains about the presence of water in arenas. a breakdown:

water spout: 24% each opponent.

four surfs: 14% each to each = 56% each.
fluffy's surf: 9% to each.

nothing else in affected by the arena. in any other arena, at the end of round 2 (assuming the same actions, working backwards without taking into account damage cap -- that is, ignoring rain and water spout), zackrai would have had some 47%/38%/47%, and I would have had some 62%/85%/84%. at that point, I could have commanded surf x 3 ~~ surf x 3; no amount of damage would have have actually knocked out any of mine, and the total damage there would have been some 11% x 3 + 7% x 3 = 54%, and that's before even taking into account Pinch's actions.

(I am ignoring the accuracy loss on thunder, because would only have affected the bidoof anyway, and would have just put it equal to the other two, still under 50%.)

furthermore: the challenge was issued 2011 08 18; for reference, the first time I tried selling a rare candy, and this exchange, both happened mid-september, so I don't think I had much reason to fix a match then. perhaps a "I have a water absorb poliwag, how about I write an arena that generates water-typed attacks", but since there's something appealing about a subtly kyogre-themed arena anyway ... I don't think so.



yeah, I'm not even sure what you're complaining about. sure, target-all moves are ludicrous in multiples, but I'm inclined to categorize role play shenanigans firmly under "game-controlling strategy" instead of "fixing the match." the rewards from that battle would have been ridiculous, yes, but that's more because the rules for multiples were broken than the arena.
Click to expand...

According to Negrek (via PM to me):

The arena was designed to deal a large amount of damage to all the opponents' pokémon while healing all of sreservoir's, as well as minimize battle length; the battle parameters were set to maximize EXP/money gain with the minimum risk in the minimum amount of time.
Click to expand...

And in your thread:

Because sreservoir was obviously rigging this battle as an EXP-farm, it enjoys the great honor of being the first person to use the new EXP prize rules for multiple battles, under which Pinch and œ would get 2 EXP and Fluffy would get 3. I'm withholding an extra EXP from each for general bastardry, bringing the final total to 1 EXP for both Pinch and œ, two for Fluffy, and half the normal cash.
Click to expand...
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

Effercon said:
According to Negrek (via PM to me):

The arena was designed to deal a large amount of damage to all the opponents' pokémon while healing all of sreservoir's, as well as minimize battle length; the battle parameters were set to maximize EXP/money gain with the minimum risk in the minimum amount of time.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

minimizing battle length, perhaps. but considering my more recent battles, four of my five most recently started battles ended in under five rounds, and both the double battles ended more quickly than one single battle. it doesn't seem strange, in retrospect, that a triple battle would finish even more quickly. and in any case, I'd prefer to think it's less the arena than that I've been optimizing my commands to reduce time.

and in any case, as shown above, I should have been able to manage a three-round finish even without arena influence, so.

the arena, as written, deals large amounts of damage to everyone. water absorb mitigates that, but two of my pokémon didn't even have it at the beginning of the battle. the healing-all-of-my-pokémon was due to actions taken during the battle which, mind, could just as well have been done by zackrai if he'd sent out different pokémon.

nothing in the arena would have prevented an opponent from using effectively the same strategy I used, using a water-resist to reduce the damage, or even using that magic guard solosis to not take damage from the arena effect. or really, just taunting the misdreavus. in fact, here's a loophole: magnemite magic coats, reflects a string shot, gets encored into magic coat, bidoof taunts misdreavus.

I really don't see how the arena is reducing the risk on my end. the core of my strategy more or less relied on getting five fairly specific moves off (role play, taunt, imprison or taunt; and mimic and role play), while giving commands first. zackrai could very well have turned that first round into a game of "find the loophole" (and I've already thought of one I didn't manage to cover, which would have caused at least the ninjask and likely also the misdreavus to take water spout damage).

so the arena did end up providing much greater benefit to me than to my opponent. nothing in the arena excludes an opponent from deriving just as much benefit. thus, not fixed.

Effercon said:
And in your thread:

Negrek said:
Because sreservoir was obviously rigging this battle as an EXP-farm, it enjoys the great honor of being the first person to use the new EXP prize rules for multiple battles, under which Pinch and œ would get 2 EXP and Fluffy would get 3. I'm withholding an extra EXP from each for general bastardry, bringing the final total to 1 EXP for both Pinch and œ, two for Fluffy, and half the normal cash.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I can accept reduced and withheld EXP, because the 12 EXP I would have gained under the existing ruleset really would have been ludicrous. old EXP prize rules went 3 8 15 24 35 and so on, so it really did need revision.

but seriously. that battle was far from fixed.



incidentally, suppose I put out this challenge:

3 vs 3 triple (that is, three at a time)
dq: 7 days
damage cap: 50%
banned: ohko's
arena: Demonstration Ocean

There is water.

sreservoir sends out a female misdreavus holding a dusk stone, a female water absorb poliwag holding a dawn stone, and a female speed boost ninjask.

The challenge-taker sends out a male simple bidoof, a male stench grimer with this body modification, and a sturdy magnemite.

No experience rewards will be given for this battle. Appropriate compensation may be determined
Click to expand...

same parameters, except without the water spout and rain dance. theoretically speaking, this should also be a 3-turn curb-stomp battle. would that make my point clear? would you still call it fixed?

unless the "parameters" which are fixing the battle in my favor are already there, which would be silly.



(incidentally, I'm quite amused that this turned into something of a scandal. disappointed and amused. they go well together!)
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

sreservoir said:
I really don't see how the arena is reducing the risk on my end. the core of my strategy more or less relied on getting five fairly specific moves off (role play, taunt, imprison or taunt; and mimic and role play), while giving commands first. zackrai could very well have turned that first round into a game of "find the loophole"
Click to expand...

Yes, but only you would know the loophole.

res said:
incidentally, suppose I put out this challenge:



same parameters, except without the water spout and rain dance. theoretically speaking, this should also be a 3-turn curb-stomp battle. would that make my point clear? would you still call it fixed?
Click to expand...

Not too sure - I wouldn't necessarily say "fixed", but I'd heavily frown upon it.
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (UPDATED FOR ASBIES)

right, so I ... exist. maybe.

Effercon said:
Yes, but only you would know the loophole.
Click to expand...

... I don't go out of my way to make loopholes. that would be silly (and disadvantageous to myself). they exist, but they're unintended consequences. (there actually is a giant loophole in my command-string, but I didn't go out of my way to put it there.)

unless you mean the "loophole" in the arena which allowed the role playing for water absorb, in which case I would find it slightly ridiculous to accuse me of writing an arena to fit a strategy developed after I wrote it (not provable, perhaps), using at least one pokémon that didn't exist (verifiable based on id), fitting a purpose without precedent at the time (probable, given timestamps). it would have been more efficient to design it with a preexisting pokémon, one which learns role play without mimic in mind, no?

Effercon said:
Not too sure - I wouldn't necessarily say "fixed", but I'd heavily frown upon it.
Click to expand...

I think this illustrates a fundamental disparity in our ideas of a "fixed" match.

because I'm not seeing anything in that example for you to "heavily frown upon."
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (LATEST UPDATES IN)

Hey, I want to file a complaint! What's a guy have to do to reach ASB Legend status around here, anyway? Complete an actual battle? Oh, pssht!
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (LATEST UPDATES IN)

... I'm in the top twenty for points? Interesting.

Pathos said:
Uhhhhhh??
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Mai said:
Well. This was never counted for five rounds or less; you never said anything about it so I assume you just forgot it? (Look at me trying to frantically find a spot.)
Click to expand...

Same here, not that it really matters that much anyway.

Could I know my percentage ranking?
 
Re: ASB All-Time Rankings and Hall of Fame (LATEST UPDATES IN)

Ranking?

Do events/tourneys/contests/ect. affect your ranking?
 
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