Black & White

[departuresong]

Except we both know Nintendo could be pushing the envelope so much more than they are.

 

[Alxprit]

We're not comparing Pokemon to other, perhaps cooler games. We're comparing Pokemon to older Pokemon. That's why it all seems so awesome.

 

[Butterfree]

Why are people impressed by this? There are games (Nintendo DS games at that) that pull off things infinitely more aesthetically impressive. It really doesn't take much to make Pokémon fans excited, does it?

Oh noes, there are other games that look better. Obviously this means an awesome improvement nobody dared to even hope for in a game series we actually care about must be treated with utmost indifference.

Honestly, it boggles my mind that they actually bothered to create several fluid 80x80 pixel art animations of something like six hundred different monsters. With quantities like that involved, it wouldn't have surprised me one bit if somebody had told me this would be downright impossible to do in practice. Most DS games using animated 2D sprites that I've seen have the enormous advantage of being able to pretty much directly import hand-drawn art for every frame, but Pokémon sprites are actually made pixel by pixel and I can't even begin to imagine how many total hours of spriting must have gone into this. You may well be able to point me to a hundred DS games that are prettier to look at, but I seriously, seriously appreciate the work they did here.

 

[Phoenixsong]

"They can do better" would also depend on what sort of "better" you're talking about. Even if it isn't the most aesthetically stunning game the DS is capable of producing, they've still done a decent job of adding relatively fluid motion to the same pixellated, 2D feel it had before--and that 2D-feel is something that a lot of fans don't want to let go of. These battle graphics and the adjusted overworld look like a step up from D/P as opposed to a complete graphical overhaul bearing no resemblance to anything in the series so far, which would drive a lot of older fans away.

Unless you can provide a specific example of a DS game with a graphic style that would satisfy this camp, that is? I'm genuinely curious as to what sort of game you think would be a good example of something that would still definitively feel like Pokémon.

 

[Bombsii]

I love how excited those Japanese guys get when they look at the new footage on those videos x]

But yeah, the new animations do look pretty good, maybe for physical attacks like fire punch, they'll just do a PBR move and just tilt the camera to make it look like they're hitting each other.

 

[departuresong]

Unless you can provide a specific example of a DS game with a graphic style that would satisfy this camp, that is? I'm genuinely curious as to what sort of game you think would be a good example of something that would still definitively feel like Pokémon.

The World Ends With You? Any other Square-Enix game? The point isn't that they look similar to Pokémon, but they've proven that the DS is a pretty damn amazing piece of hardware capable of more than many people first think.

My complaint isn't as much with Nintendo as it is with the fans. If they cream themselves over something like a two-frame waiting animation and alternating camera angles that do nothing but pixelate sprites, it obviously means Nintendo doesn't have to put a lot of effort into their games, and we get the same recycled garbage we've been getting for years. I know I might be the minority here when I say this, but Pokémon games have gotten really boring. I barely finished Diamond and Platinum, and now I'm in Cianwood in SoulSilver and I don't even care enough to go any further because it's so monotonous. If Black and White are the same deal with no innovation and just a bunch of stupid gimmicks like this, I probably won't end up purchasing it. But I guess we shall see...

 

[Tailsy]

The World Ends With You? Any other Square-Enix game? The point isn't that they look similar to Pokémon, but they've proven that the DS is a pretty damn amazing piece of hardware capable of more than many people first think.

Hahaha, what? I've been playing Kingdom Hearts whatever-the-fuck Days and it's a pixelled piece of crap. Just sayin'.

 

[Butterfree]

If they cream themselves over something like a two-frame waiting animation and alternating camera angles that do nothing but pixelate sprites, it obviously means Nintendo doesn't have to put a lot of effort into their games, and we get the same recycled garbage we've been getting for years.

But it's not just a two-frame waiting animation, and that's the whole point. I'd fully agree if they were, but these are fluid, smooth, multi-frame animations, showing not just a simple breathing loop but also actual actions. I'm seriously getting the impression you haven't actually watched the footage. Not a lot of effort, my ass - there are six hundred freaking Pokémon and they had to make several frames pixel by pixel for both the front and back sprites of every single one of them. Nobody was expecting them to do anything like it, either. That's effort. Other games can look prettier on an absolute scale, but this is clearly not half-assed work they did here.

 

[hopeandjoy]

But those are other games. This is Pokémon. I'm not saying that these are the best damn graphics on a DS I've ever seen in my life; I'm saying that these are the best damn graphics in a Pokémon game I seen in my life. Did you expect that Game Freak would do something like this? As Butterfree pointed out, Pokémon sprites are done pixel by pixel. Do you have any idea how long that would take? Or the effort? Scratch spriting isn't easy, you know.

And besides, why shouldn't we mostly compare a Pokémon game to other Pokémon games? We expect an improvement on those games, not ones like other games. Besides, it wouldn't feel like Pokémon to me without sprites.

 

[spaekle]

Well, the "action element" that was getting hyped is starting to become apparent now, but I wonder if it goes beyond making the battles more dynamic aesthetically? :o

 

[Not Meowth]

I want these games so bad.

Seriously why can't I have them right now ;~;

I also want the Lucario costume the guy in one of those videos had on.

 

[Chopsuey]

THE SPRITES MOVE.
THE SPRITES.
MOVE.

This'll make spriting hella interesting and fresh again <3
And NPCs get outta your way <3

This. (Yes I know rtghis was a weird time to put that, but meh.)

 

[#1 bro]

I can sort of see where Furret is coming from - I mean, I personally expected the fifth generation to have the battles in full 3D, with a 360 rotating camera and whatnot. I'm guessing the reason they didn't do it was because they couldn't fit it all on the DS card for all 600 pokemon. But this is cool too, I guess.

 

[Elliekat]

Maybe the camera will be optionally rotational, like you can manually turn it on? Like in Animal Crossing or Zelda Wind Waker?

 

[#1 bro]

The problem with that is the pokemon are 2d sprites. They can only be resized or moved; there is no possible way to view them from multiple angles.

 

[Butterfree]

...how on earth do you propose the camera would be rotational when the Pokémon are 2D sprites?

Personally, I don't really want battles in the main series to go 3D, or at least until the consoles it's on get powerful enough for 3D that actually manages the same level of smoothness, detail and expressiveness that can be achieved with sprites. :/ The fact Pokémon battle gameplay is a matter of nothing but inputting commands and receiving messages means they really have no business being 3D, much less having rotating cameras; sure, it's flashy, but it really wouldn't contribute to the game in any meaningful way, and I'd rather they spent that effort doing something useful. Pretty flashy 3D battles are better kept to the TV consoles that have a decent resolution and screen size to show off on.

Meanwhile, as I said, 3D models rarely actually look better than 2D sprites, especially on a tiny screen on a handheld console that doesn't have the power for truly flawless, detailed models and textures or the resolution to show details like eyes and expressions well without zooming in a lot. Sprites, on the other hand, are inherently aware of their size and resolution and can be drawn in such a way as to emphasize such features where they would otherwise become invisible or distorted. It is a disadvantage that they can't be dynamically resized without looking considerably worse for it and need individually drawn frames to be animated, but in themselves, sprites > 3D models as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, now that they're already bringing more life to battles with the animated sprites, the main remaining reason to go 3D is actually that it would very probably be easier for the developers to make 600 passable 3D models, textures and accompanying movement instructions than 1200 sprites times however many frames each one has with a new set for all the subsequent games.

 

[#1 bro]

yeah, but it's way more fun to see the battle in 3D than it is to just watch two stationary sprites. :\

 

[Prairie Chicken]

Well, there's always the latest Battle Revolution/Coliseum/Stadium whatever they're calling it nowadays if you want 3D. I'm sure another's in the works with fifth gen on the way.

I have to give Nintendo credit here. They're making the same game yet again, but at least they're making it pretty! =D

 

[Elliekat]

No, what I meant was, In the overworld, maybe you'll have the option for a "normal" bird's eye view or a manually operated rotational view. Maybe there'll be areas and/or hidden items easier or only possible to find with a side-view camera?

 

[Doctor Jimmy]

I know I might be the minority here when I say this, but Pokémon games have gotten really boring.

This. The Pokemon franchise has been suffering a long death since their innovation pool dried up after the second generation. Old fans get tired of repurchasing a product that has little change in core gameplay over time, and newer fans aren't finding the thrill in an outdated console RPG formula. I was hoping for a bigger change with this generation.

And the new graphics aren't anything to circlejerk over. Anyone with an emulator and the right tools can rotate and tilt the camera in D/P.