Do you identify as a feminist?

[Zuu]

Wait, what? How are nouns assigned gender in Latin if not by how they decline?

it's true, they're masculine but take 1F endings. i'm not one hundred percent sure why, but that's how it's stated in the sources i've checked. masculine, takes 1F endings. i assume they take masculine adjectives. blah

 

[Tarvos]

There are just some exceptions to grammatical gender in Latin that make fuck all sense.

 

[Butterfree]

Why should we care what it's like in the Romance languages? In German groups of people are always "feminine" by this definition (though actually it would be more accurate to describe it as "the plural happens to be the same as the feminine singular"). In fact, when addressing somebody respectfully, regardless of gender, you also use the third-person singular feminine pronoun. Well, that's nice and feminist, isn't it? Meanwhile, English (and Icelandic!) use the neuter form for mixed-gender groups.

I still think this has fuck-all to do with sexism in reality.

 

[Zuu]

essentially, i'm on the same side as Butterfree. i am far from denying that sexism exists. i just fail to see what this has to do with actual sexism. this is just pointless pickiness about language, it seems to me.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Thirding what Butterfree and Zuu said.

Also, on that note, I really don't get why people have a problem with English using the third person plural pronoun as the genderless third person singular pronoun. It's just one of the quirks of the language, yet I constantly see people on this very forum using made-up genderless third person singular pronouns.

 

[goldenquagsire]

Also, on that note, I really don't get why people have a problem with English using the third person plural pronoun as the genderless third person singular pronoun. It's just one of the quirks of the language, yet I constantly see people on this very forum using made-up genderless third person singular pronouns.

I'd guess that the idea of using "hir" and such is to raise awareness of gender issues whilst maintaining grammatical integrity. However, I'd say that their use is problematic because

1. Outside of a relatively homogeneous community like TCOD, no-one has a clue what these words mean.
2. 'They' as a singular pronoun might not be strictly correct English, but it's already understood and used in that context by most people.

tl;dr, special snowflakes and anglo-centrism

 

[surskitty]

Also, on that note, I really don't get why people have a problem with English using the third person plural pronoun as the genderless third person singular pronoun. It's just one of the quirks of the language, yet I constantly see people on this very forum using made-up genderless third person singular pronouns.

'They' sounds odd when referring to one particular person of indeterminate gender. I mostly hear singular they used for generics, rather than for unknowns.

 

[hopeandjoy]

I use it for unknowns. I was taught to use singular they by... Uh... Well, I've always done it. It's used in my house that way, anyway.

 

[Dinru]

Also: We should care about how language addresses people gender-wise because language actively shapes the way we think about things. (Also, assuming males as the default is far from isolated to romance languages; how many female-presenting people around here have been referred to as "dude" or had a group they were in called "guys" (such as "those guys" or "you guys"?).

 

[Butterfree]

That just means that "dude" and "guy" have become relatively gender-neutral terms. Language shapes the way we think about things, yes, but we don't think very hard about language; the shaping happens when we have words to express some things and others not, or when the words we use for things have additional connotations, or when we project patterns in language onto something unrelated. Arguments for lingual sexism usually require that your subconscious start reading into exactly what letters and sounds constitute the pronouns you're using and draw sexist conclusions form that, which is exactly how we don't think about language, by default; words become discrete units in our heads, and we don't actually analyze exactly how the labels 'male' and 'female' relate to one another. If it seriously were a great influence, again, shouldn't we see a marked trend towards societies with more 'sexist' languages to be more sexist than societies with less 'sexist' languages?

 

[Eloi]

If it seriously were a great influence, again, shouldn't we see a marked trend towards societies with more 'sexist' languages to be more sexist than societies with less 'sexist' languages?

I dunno, Iceland is generally more equality-advocating than the Anglosphere countries, and in Icelandic, the pronouns and other misc. words for male/female are completely different, unlike their Anglosphere counterparts. So maybe you're on to something?

 

[goldenquagsire]

Also: We should care about how language addresses people gender-wise because language actively shapes the way we think about things.

This is true, but to a large extent we've already changed our language to be more inclusive. You never see "he" used as the third person singular pronoun anymore. In most cases, old-fashioned words like "chairman/woman" are being replaced by gender-neutral alternatives like "chair" or "chairperson". There's still some anomalies like "actress" that haven't died away yet, but they probably won't survive much longer.

There's other battles to fight, like all that nonsense over pink for girls and blue for boys.

 

[opaltiger]

You never see "he" used as the third person singular pronoun anymore.

Um. What?

 

[Eloi]

There's other battles to fight, like all that nonsense over pink for girls and blue for boys.

But I like pink. :(

 

[Aisling]

There's other battles to fight, like all that nonsense over pink for girls and blue for boys.

Is it bad that I don't see what the big deal about this is? Like I said earlier this it seems like one of those less-important issues that people fuss about when there's more important and immediate things at hand... could someone explain the significance of what color you decorate your baby's room with is? At that age babies probably don't even care what color their room is. They don't care about the connotations of it. If it makes baby girls grow up liking pink better because their stuff was pink when they were babies, so what? Or if you thought you'd have a boy and decorate the room blue, again what does it matter? Or is it just the idea of something influencing them before they're old enough to understand the issue here? Or that people seem to think that it's important, or make color decisions based on predicted gender at all, or what?

Conceding my ignorance here but I'm honestly curious...

edit: brought this up on #tcod so I think I understand now, but feel free to reply anyway in case you think you have some more input or in case someone else has the same question as I did

 

[goldenquagsire]

Um. What?

No, really! I've almost never seen it used that way any more. Like, in the setance

If a student likes Shakespeare, he will love Marlowe

'he' is always changed to 'he or she' or 'they'. It's only old people who still use it.

But I like pink. :(

That in itself isn't bad. The problem is, the distinction is just so rigid. If you're a girl, you have to like pink. From birth, clothes and toys are segregated strictly along gender lines. Further on down the line, this leads to patronising shit like pink blackberries.

 

[opaltiger]

'he' is always changed to 'he or she' or 'they'. It's only old people who still use it.

Well, apparently our subjective experiences are wildly different, then.

 

[goldenquagsire]

Well, apparently our subjective experiences are wildly different, then.

Fair enough. Maybe my cosmopolitan bias clouds my experience. :P

 

[Dannichu]

Is it bad that I don't see what the big deal about this is? Like I said earlier this it seems like one of those less-important issues that people fuss about when there's more important and immediate things at hand... could someone explain the significance of what color you decorate your baby's room with is? At that age babies probably don't even care what color their room is. They don't care about the connotations of it. If it makes baby girls grow up liking pink better because their stuff was pink when they were babies, so what? Or if you thought you'd have a boy and decorate the room blue, again what does it matter? Or is it just the idea of something influencing them before they're old enough to understand the issue here? Or that people seem to think that it's important, or make color decisions based on predicted gender at all, or what?

Conceding my ignorance here but I'm honestly curious...

edit: brought this up on #tcod so I think I understand now, but feel free to reply anyway in case you think you have some more input or in case someone else has the same question as I did

It's been mentioned, but while there's obviously nothing inherently bad about either colour, the dichotomising of gender - boys like this, girls like that - is what gives rise to sexism in the first place; most reasonable people agree that men and women are fundamentally the same, and behavioural differences are down to socialization, rather than biology (ie. men don't cry because it's socially unacceptable for them to, not because women have a 'crying gene'). Separating the sexes from pretty much the moment of birth only reinforces this - have a look at any toyshop and you'll see the "boys section" filled with robots, cars and monsters, and the "girls section" filled with dolls, ponies and minature kitchens. These toys are then important in forming children's perceptions of jobs - boys are taught that good jobs are being a fireman, policeman and so on, while girls are expected to play with minature kitchens, ironing boards and even vacuum cleaners.

Plus, pink has an absolute ton of connotations. It's not a neutral colour. Both men and women can wear blue without it being any sort of statement, but pink is far more socially charged. Men can wear pink, but it's noticed that they wear pink, and they're seen as either being effeminate or subversive.

On the other hand, women are expected to like pink. Video games companies have made pink versions of their consoles (DS, PSP and PS2, plus every kind of phone you can think of) specifically to 'target' a female audience. And it's not just traditionally male objects that are given a new pink coating to help them appeal to women, either -

...I think the 'picture says a thousand words' bit applies here.

 

[surskitty]

I saw a pack of earplugs yesterday labelled FOR WOMEN that were bright pink and more expensive than the normal yellow earplugs.