Datura
actually a very nice person
I'm pretty sure cis people are the reason trans* people don't have rights already ;) ;) ;)
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Is it necessary for a trans* person to transition?
- Thread starter Dinru
- Start date
goldenquagsire
Rubber dinghy rapids, bro!
Aisling
Super Moderator
this is a gross generalization I thought those were gross and not okay?
cis people aren't the reason trans* people don't have rights. Bigots are.
Please. Can we all just please stop being snarky and sarcastic and stuff it's really. I mean. gosh
it's just hurtful to everyone and not productive or anything
and on the original subject question thing, it's probably really dumb and obvious please I'm sorry but-- but why would a transgender person need to transition? Transitioning is just, like, the surgery and hormones and stuff, right? The stuff a transsexual person would wish to do? Why would the question be "should trans* need to transition" if trans* includes transgender and transvestite maybe I assume that's why there's a * wildcard thing is there, when the only type of trans* I can think of that would logically transition by its definition is transsexual? Am I misunderstanding some definitions here?
Jolty
Active member
- Pronoun
- he/him
transgender and transsexual are the same thing. you can't change your gender since it's in your head, but you can change your body. i don't entirely know why transgender is used more often now.
and i think the asterisk is meant to include non binaries and stuff as well but if it really does include transvestites then it's even more stupid than i thought it was.
it's like an attempt to be inclusive or something, but non binary and transsexual are just completely not the same and so grouping them together imo is stupid.
Rainbow Dashie
~MtF princess~
transgender sort of is both an umbrella term for non-binary folks too (though I guess that's why trans* is used for that now instead) as well as used to refer to transsexual people (because of the bad connotations of the latter), even if the transgender term itself is wrong since only the gender will remain the same
and I guess trans* can include crossdressers? that is ones who aren't transvestic fetishists or ones who just find the clothes' fabric to be more comfortable, but rather ones who feel an "urge" to crossdress which some people interpret as a weaker version of gender dysphoria of sorts? but that will never make them transition
so yeah this should only refer to transsexual people and not non-transsexual trans* people
that being said I even know some MtF spectrum non-binary folks who took hormones for a while to become more androgynous, even though I think that is a really terrible idea since depending on how long they've been on HRT for they risk osteoporosis after detransitioning without taking T injections afterwards (their body can no longer produce sufficient amounts of T after a certain amount of time on HRT), and T eventually rearranges the body fat anyway..... unless they're happy with shrunk breasts that are barely A cups
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Aisling
Super Moderator
Oh. I always figured transgender just referred to people whose gender doesn't match their biological sex (but is still either male or female opposite of their sex- something in between is just called non-binary or genderqueer, right?), but they're not so uncomfortable with their sex that they're fine with just dressing how they like and being referred to how they like. The people who don't feel it necessary to transition, I guess. Though if you take the word apart it does make less sense since you can't change your gender and yeah. I think I understand now.
With that, I think... I don't really see why, within reason, people shouldn't just be able to identify as what makes them happiest and most comfortable. They probably know who they are better than anyone else. (within reason meaning, if you just think it'd make you look cool to hipsters or something, obvs it's not okay to start identifying as something you don't sincerely feel you are) It's probably confusing for others if they don't make other outward efforts to express their gender besides dressing differently if they don't want to physically transition, but hopefully they're understanding if people make mistakes initially?
I guess the question then is "is trans* still the right word, and if not, what are you?" (at least, if your reason for not transitioning is that you don't want to, rather than you're unable to) and I don't really know the answer to that. I think the best next course of action would be figuring out what term is correct if trans* isn't, instead of asking "doesn't that make you cis if you don't transition", because cis also has a very specific definition that a not-transitioning trans* person still might not match. If I understand correctly, the way the question was presented is what made people so upset in this thread. But then I may be misinterpreting what the question is entirely, please forgive me if that's so.
Being cis, I know I don't know what it's like to be transgender, but I know that if I were, I would like to have the right to be referred to whatever pronouns make me most comfortable, without having to go through surgeries and hormone treatments first.
With that, I think... I don't really see why, within reason, people shouldn't just be able to identify as what makes them happiest and most comfortable. They probably know who they are better than anyone else. (within reason meaning, if you just think it'd make you look cool to hipsters or something, obvs it's not okay to start identifying as something you don't sincerely feel you are) It's probably confusing for others if they don't make other outward efforts to express their gender besides dressing differently if they don't want to physically transition, but hopefully they're understanding if people make mistakes initially?
I guess the question then is "is trans* still the right word, and if not, what are you?" (at least, if your reason for not transitioning is that you don't want to, rather than you're unable to) and I don't really know the answer to that. I think the best next course of action would be figuring out what term is correct if trans* isn't, instead of asking "doesn't that make you cis if you don't transition", because cis also has a very specific definition that a not-transitioning trans* person still might not match. If I understand correctly, the way the question was presented is what made people so upset in this thread. But then I may be misinterpreting what the question is entirely, please forgive me if that's so.
Being cis, I know I don't know what it's like to be transgender, but I know that if I were, I would like to have the right to be referred to whatever pronouns make me most comfortable, without having to go through surgeries and hormone treatments first.
Minish
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- Pronoun
- they
it's a long post sorry & stuff
Ummm well! I'm not responding to 99.5% of this thread even though I read it all! because wow I just don't have the patience or time any more and also not touching some of this with a foot long pole. But! I'm pretty sure the best definition of trans* is just anyone who doesn't fit with what they were, gender-wise, told to be at birth!
If you don't care about non-binary people being comfortable then omg whatever 'cause I seriously have to deal with that shit every single day of my life and it's just sort of same-old same-old for me! But the thing is, even if you don't care or feel like you're more justified in feeling good, you sort of can't just say we can't have that word? Because, um, it literally is a word, a name, something that doesn't actually really have any inherent meaning?? it's sort of just. what we decided it was! and it would be different if like 1% of trans* people agreed on this definition but actually, the vast vast majority of people who call themselves trans* have this one thing in common, that they don't feel comfortable with the gender everyone told them they were
and, I mean, you can keep pretending that it's different, I guess? And keep adding limitations, like 'they aren't trans until...' 1 until they would change their bodies if it were easy, 2 they think about having a different body often, 3 they hate their bodies, 4 they don't even consider their bodies theirs, etc. etc. etc. etc. until eventually the only definition is 'they aren't trans until they're exactly the same as me' if you reeeeally want?? I guess? but I just. I don't see the point? (though that said Jolty you keep complaining about all the gross privileged non-binary enemies stealing all your opportunities away, I mean are you even 0.00001% prepared to actually reconsider that anyway)
If you don't use this word for anything other than navigating the medical system that might be pretty perfect for you, but actually, identity descriptors are super-super-super-super-SUPER important way beyond function like that. Like, so much more important and eh it's just a thing you can kind of see in the tiniest glance at history, I feel!
because people need ~labels, because I need labels, because I need to be able to define myself when people just keep a) wanting to know what I am, b) telling me what I am, and c) I want to know, too! like, things like 'I am a person who likes reading' is kind of weak but 'I am white' is actually extremely fucking powerful, like you seriously neeeed these things. they ground you and explain you and give you a way to actually be a single point in the world. the 'names are power' trope is pretty prolific throughout myths and stories and fiction and human thought for this huge massive reason
I mean people who are like ~labels!!! who needs 'em they just ruin everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!! will always exist but I just genuinely think they're so completely, impossibly wrong, certainly about everyone else if not themselves! knowing I am, say, for a pretty different example, white - this knowing that I am white, that is word 'white' is what I am is really important, I mean in that word is kind of a whole bunch of shit? it's tying together all these things like what this means for my life and it just literally is something that says something about me
(obvs white people don't often feel they need to call themselves white as much as poc need to call themselves poc, I mean those are totally different needs - this is important too, like I'm sure you understand that a poc recognising themselves as a poc is more than just 'my skin is this' or 'my parents were poc so I turned out poc' like there are poc who decide they don't really care about calling themselves a poc and probably don't really ~identify and then there are poc for whom this is a huuuuge fucking deal and really really important and it just ties everything together in this parcel and "I am poc I live the life of a poc person" is just such a fucking important thing to say to yourself and to the world
and wow then you realise that you're trying to take this important thing, 'trans' away from me, right)
and then you just kick past things like 'white' into words that are further into the 'your choice', I guess, like trans? like, I guess that's what you're trying to put across, this question of 'why did I decide the word trans was good for me' so I guess I won't repeat this truth that ~*~hi I actually just *am* trans but ok~*~ and really try to get my point across!
yeah, there was a time when I didn't call myself trans and now I do, and for a whole fucking while (and still a bit now cheers) I feel really weird and reluctant about that because I always felt like there were binary trans people eeeveryywhere who might tell me to die, and then gradually I realised nope, you know what, I should be so fucking allowed to use this word
calling myself trans means that I acknowledge that my relationship with my body is seriously seriously affected by the thoughts and decisions that other people have when they look at it. when I look at it. when they looked at it when I was born, throughout all of cissexism, throughout all of the media - that these feelings and thoughts and this relationship I have are for a reason, because I am not 'cis', and not just random irrelevant feelings of discomfort. there is a reason for it and it's because I am this thing
it's justification, too, for feeling this way, it's not because these are just random thoughts I'm having but because I am trans, I am this thing that affects my relationship with my body and with other people and with cissexism and basically throughout my entire life in almost every way
like, once I know that I am trans, I have something to work with
and 'trans' is made up of all these identifications and opinions and politics of the huge trans hivemind and wow, that's just really fucking useful and important to have at my fingertips, once I identify that way, I have access to these things because once these feelings have a name, so do I
I mean, I don't really get at all why you think most people who call themselves trans do it purely to navigate the medical system especially since a decent bunch of it - *EVEN PEOPLE WHO HATE THEIR BODIES AND WANT TO CHANGE IT LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS* - stay the fuck away from it
like if you did not have these words to call yourself, any words, if you had no descriptors at all beyond function in a medical database
you would literally not really be anything???? ?_? ?_?
we simply do define all our experiences and feelings and all this shit in our lives with words and concepts and descriptors our thoughts are language
basically >>>> I mean if you care a single bit about linguistics, semantics is kind of a whole bunch more than 'this word means this' and it's actually really interesting when you look at the way people think and how our concepts develop, because if we had no name for 'the feeling of loneliness' say, it would be SO SO difficult to think about loneliness, you could not say "I am lonely" for square one, and there would be no literature about loneliness, no poetry, no fucking psychology, look if I cannot access any fucking psychology on trans people everything is like 10000% harder because then how am I meant to understand all this shit
once I say "I am trans" I can deal with that and look at that and have a real relationship with my body and my identity and work on things
and 'trans' is made up of all the people who sincerely benefit from this and who have set up this community around this knowledge
it's not made up of what some cis doctors decided I was......
there is a real reason we, trans people, have decided the 1966 definition "true transsexuals ... their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon's knife" needed to develop and it's not just because transmen weren't included there
and I even feel like maybe you have more need of the word 'trans' than 'so that doctors put me on the sex reassignment conveyer belt", like are you really going to always identify to the whims of the fucking medical community??? seriously?
trans* is an important thing for me to know I am, and there is real power in it that I don't intend on handing over to either you or a cis doctor, even on my most simplistic palatable dysphoric my-body-is-shit days
so yeah that's why I call myself trans
Ummm well! I'm not responding to 99.5% of this thread even though I read it all! because wow I just don't have the patience or time any more and also not touching some of this with a foot long pole. But! I'm pretty sure the best definition of trans* is just anyone who doesn't fit with what they were, gender-wise, told to be at birth!
If you don't care about non-binary people being comfortable then omg whatever 'cause I seriously have to deal with that shit every single day of my life and it's just sort of same-old same-old for me! But the thing is, even if you don't care or feel like you're more justified in feeling good, you sort of can't just say we can't have that word? Because, um, it literally is a word, a name, something that doesn't actually really have any inherent meaning?? it's sort of just. what we decided it was! and it would be different if like 1% of trans* people agreed on this definition but actually, the vast vast majority of people who call themselves trans* have this one thing in common, that they don't feel comfortable with the gender everyone told them they were
and, I mean, you can keep pretending that it's different, I guess? And keep adding limitations, like 'they aren't trans until...' 1 until they would change their bodies if it were easy, 2 they think about having a different body often, 3 they hate their bodies, 4 they don't even consider their bodies theirs, etc. etc. etc. etc. until eventually the only definition is 'they aren't trans until they're exactly the same as me' if you reeeeally want?? I guess? but I just. I don't see the point? (though that said Jolty you keep complaining about all the gross privileged non-binary enemies stealing all your opportunities away, I mean are you even 0.00001% prepared to actually reconsider that anyway)
If you don't use this word for anything other than navigating the medical system that might be pretty perfect for you, but actually, identity descriptors are super-super-super-super-SUPER important way beyond function like that. Like, so much more important and eh it's just a thing you can kind of see in the tiniest glance at history, I feel!
because people need ~labels, because I need labels, because I need to be able to define myself when people just keep a) wanting to know what I am, b) telling me what I am, and c) I want to know, too! like, things like 'I am a person who likes reading' is kind of weak but 'I am white' is actually extremely fucking powerful, like you seriously neeeed these things. they ground you and explain you and give you a way to actually be a single point in the world. the 'names are power' trope is pretty prolific throughout myths and stories and fiction and human thought for this huge massive reason
I mean people who are like ~labels!!! who needs 'em they just ruin everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!! will always exist but I just genuinely think they're so completely, impossibly wrong, certainly about everyone else if not themselves! knowing I am, say, for a pretty different example, white - this knowing that I am white, that is word 'white' is what I am is really important, I mean in that word is kind of a whole bunch of shit? it's tying together all these things like what this means for my life and it just literally is something that says something about me
(obvs white people don't often feel they need to call themselves white as much as poc need to call themselves poc, I mean those are totally different needs - this is important too, like I'm sure you understand that a poc recognising themselves as a poc is more than just 'my skin is this' or 'my parents were poc so I turned out poc' like there are poc who decide they don't really care about calling themselves a poc and probably don't really ~identify and then there are poc for whom this is a huuuuge fucking deal and really really important and it just ties everything together in this parcel and "I am poc I live the life of a poc person" is just such a fucking important thing to say to yourself and to the world
and wow then you realise that you're trying to take this important thing, 'trans' away from me, right)
and then you just kick past things like 'white' into words that are further into the 'your choice', I guess, like trans? like, I guess that's what you're trying to put across, this question of 'why did I decide the word trans was good for me' so I guess I won't repeat this truth that ~*~hi I actually just *am* trans but ok~*~ and really try to get my point across!
yeah, there was a time when I didn't call myself trans and now I do, and for a whole fucking while (and still a bit now cheers) I feel really weird and reluctant about that because I always felt like there were binary trans people eeeveryywhere who might tell me to die, and then gradually I realised nope, you know what, I should be so fucking allowed to use this word
calling myself trans means that I acknowledge that my relationship with my body is seriously seriously affected by the thoughts and decisions that other people have when they look at it. when I look at it. when they looked at it when I was born, throughout all of cissexism, throughout all of the media - that these feelings and thoughts and this relationship I have are for a reason, because I am not 'cis', and not just random irrelevant feelings of discomfort. there is a reason for it and it's because I am this thing
it's justification, too, for feeling this way, it's not because these are just random thoughts I'm having but because I am trans, I am this thing that affects my relationship with my body and with other people and with cissexism and basically throughout my entire life in almost every way
like, once I know that I am trans, I have something to work with
and 'trans' is made up of all these identifications and opinions and politics of the huge trans hivemind and wow, that's just really fucking useful and important to have at my fingertips, once I identify that way, I have access to these things because once these feelings have a name, so do I
I mean, I don't really get at all why you think most people who call themselves trans do it purely to navigate the medical system especially since a decent bunch of it - *EVEN PEOPLE WHO HATE THEIR BODIES AND WANT TO CHANGE IT LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS* - stay the fuck away from it
like if you did not have these words to call yourself, any words, if you had no descriptors at all beyond function in a medical database
you would literally not really be anything???? ?_? ?_?
we simply do define all our experiences and feelings and all this shit in our lives with words and concepts and descriptors our thoughts are language
basically >>>> I mean if you care a single bit about linguistics, semantics is kind of a whole bunch more than 'this word means this' and it's actually really interesting when you look at the way people think and how our concepts develop, because if we had no name for 'the feeling of loneliness' say, it would be SO SO difficult to think about loneliness, you could not say "I am lonely" for square one, and there would be no literature about loneliness, no poetry, no fucking psychology, look if I cannot access any fucking psychology on trans people everything is like 10000% harder because then how am I meant to understand all this shit
once I say "I am trans" I can deal with that and look at that and have a real relationship with my body and my identity and work on things
and 'trans' is made up of all the people who sincerely benefit from this and who have set up this community around this knowledge
it's not made up of what some cis doctors decided I was......
there is a real reason we, trans people, have decided the 1966 definition "true transsexuals ... their sex organs, the primary (testes) as well as the secondary (penis and others) are disgusting deformities that must be changed by the surgeon's knife" needed to develop and it's not just because transmen weren't included there
and I even feel like maybe you have more need of the word 'trans' than 'so that doctors put me on the sex reassignment conveyer belt", like are you really going to always identify to the whims of the fucking medical community??? seriously?
trans* is an important thing for me to know I am, and there is real power in it that I don't intend on handing over to either you or a cis doctor, even on my most simplistic palatable dysphoric my-body-is-shit days
so yeah that's why I call myself trans
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Byrus
Strange days ahead
- Pronoun
- he/him
Cirrus, I have to be brutally honest here: that post was very rambling and incoherent and just made me more confused than ever. I'm presuming that's because you're upset. I'm interested in your point of view here, but I just... seriously can't make head or tails of that post.
A lot of trans people don't see their trans status as an identity. They see it as a medical condition. Their mind does not match their body, so they change their body to match their mind. Some people find calling it an identity feels belittling.
I'm really having problems understanding what you mean here. The "medical community" has a lot more experience than the average trans person on the net, so I think it's unfair to act as though their "whims" are unreasonable. Are you saying there shouldn't be gate-keeping or something?
A lot of trans people don't see their trans status as an identity. They see it as a medical condition. Their mind does not match their body, so they change their body to match their mind. Some people find calling it an identity feels belittling.
I'm really having problems understanding what you mean here. The "medical community" has a lot more experience than the average trans person on the net, so I think it's unfair to act as though their "whims" are unreasonable. Are you saying there shouldn't be gate-keeping or something?
Minish
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- they
uh. no? I'm perfectly fine? ?_? I honestly haven't made a more calm post in the SB forum for a looong time since I sort of never cared enough about this thread to post before! I don't. really get what was confusing :P I'm guessing my posting style or something? I know several people who are a-okay with my post, so I'm not too bothered about fixing it!
and yyyep! since that's exactly what Jolty has been saying he feels, I am pretty aware that he and others see it only as a medical condition. I am. putting across how I see it instead since that's what he asked to know!
The medical community has fucked over the trans community time and time again, it is designed to be really really difficult for trans people to proceed (surely you and Jolty can attest?), the definition of 'trans' began as a fucking psychiatric disorder and is still considered so by many? So. Yeah I guess I don't place too much faith in them!!! and actually no, I kind of feel that the average trans person probably knows a lot more about being trans since the average trans person is trans
it's okay to be ~~~brutally honest! that is allowed. what exactly are you confused about?
and yyyep! since that's exactly what Jolty has been saying he feels, I am pretty aware that he and others see it only as a medical condition. I am. putting across how I see it instead since that's what he asked to know!
The medical community has fucked over the trans community time and time again, it is designed to be really really difficult for trans people to proceed (surely you and Jolty can attest?), the definition of 'trans' began as a fucking psychiatric disorder and is still considered so by many? So. Yeah I guess I don't place too much faith in them!!! and actually no, I kind of feel that the average trans person probably knows a lot more about being trans since the average trans person is trans
it's okay to be ~~~brutally honest! that is allowed. what exactly are you confused about?
Byrus
Strange days ahead
- Pronoun
- he/him
Oh OK, it's just I tend to write like that myself when I'm upset, so yeah. It read like stream of consciousness or something.
I'll acknowledge the medical community has been fucked up in the past, but I feel like things have moved forward a lot (there are still problems I'm aware), and the general disregard a lot of trans folks show towards medical advice really disturbs me to be honest. Not to mention, it's actively encouraged not to follow advice, which is... fucked up, honestly.
I'll acknowledge the medical community has been fucked up in the past, but I feel like things have moved forward a lot (there are still problems I'm aware), and the general disregard a lot of trans folks show towards medical advice really disturbs me to be honest. Not to mention, it's actively encouraged not to follow advice, which is... fucked up, honestly.
Saying you are trans doesn't automatically mean that you are. I completely support the talk-therapy approach before any physical steps are taken, to make sure the person is completely aware of how serious transitioning is. Detransitioning is a reality, and I've personally spoken with people who have admitted they made a mistake and had underlying issues to wrestle with.
Jolty
Active member
- Pronoun
- he/him
ok i will /try/ to understand some of this. because like byrus said, pretty rambly and whatnot.
does that make all women who feel like that, trans?
THEN maybe i'll reconsider.
that tells you probably a teeny tiny bit about how i MAY have lived my life, as you could probably assume i've had to deal with a lot of shit for being some of those things.
other than that, it tells you jack fucking shit. if that is how you describe yourself, it makes you seem completely and utterly void of personality. the vast majority of people wouldn't care about these things because they do actually say next to nothing about you as an actual person.
am i still allowed to use it???
also i have yet to see any real actual binary trans people tell anyone to die. funny how it seems to be the genderbending genderqueers and whatnot who say die cis scum and all that shit. hm.
being trans is having dysphoria, i.e. everything is completely and utterly wrong and not just having a bad perception of yourself.
oh my god i don't understand this at all
i would identify to their ""whims"" over being a political statement any day.
do you know how common it is for women to feel like shit just for being women
does that make all women who feel like that, trans?
when i stop hearing about stupid little shits that go on T for funsies, lie to therapists, about PEOPLE WHO DECIDE TO LIVE AS MALE FOR A FEW YEARS FOR LITERALLY NO REASON, about people who think they need T to break the gender binary, and when i stop hearing that people like this actually GET t, regret it and then sue the gender clinics and shit, thus making it really fucking hard for actual trans people to get t (y'know to be able to live and shit)
THEN maybe i'll reconsider.
i am british, white, male, transsexual, bisexual, working class and able bodied.
that tells you probably a teeny tiny bit about how i MAY have lived my life, as you could probably assume i've had to deal with a lot of shit for being some of those things.
other than that, it tells you jack fucking shit. if that is how you describe yourself, it makes you seem completely and utterly void of personality. the vast majority of people wouldn't care about these things because they do actually say next to nothing about you as an actual person.
why would you even want that word though, most trans people don't even want it. they just want to get on with their lives and not make a big-ass political statement out of it. why would you want people to know something like that about you?
i'm now gonna say i am autistic, even though i am not.
am i still allowed to use it???
also i have yet to see any real actual binary trans people tell anyone to die. funny how it seems to be the genderbending genderqueers and whatnot who say die cis scum and all that shit. hm.
i am pretty sure most people's perceptions of themselves are shat on by the media though.
being trans is having dysphoria, i.e. everything is completely and utterly wrong and not just having a bad perception of yourself.
i'd still be a fucking person with a medical problem
oh my god i don't understand this at all
oh my god you know that people can't ACTUALLY TELL if you're trans at birth right? all this coercively assigned bullshit is so stupid
if they're the ones that can help me make this thing better, then yes
i would identify to their ""whims"" over being a political statement any day.
Minish
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Byrus, my whole post is kind of about how I think there's more to being trans than medically transitioning! If you're going to do a bunch of medical shit to your body then yeah, wow, be really really careful about it. Especially since 'detransitioning' comes with a whole load of negative stigma even if you just wanted to do what felt right at the time.
though I've pretty much only ever seen 'detransitioning' thrown around like 'lying about rape', their existences are both vastly exaggerated and maybe it's not a good idea to consider them very closely! :|a
what kind of advice do you mean, to disregard? because an enormous thing with attempting to medically transitioning is having to adapt yourself to get taken seriously, so you often have to actively disregard what they're telling you purely to get them to actually do you any good. really, wow, I guess you just had excellent experiences or something? it's kind of rare to come across a trans person whose reaction to medical shit isn't 'AAAAAAGH fuck my life'
edit: okay reading jolty's post now I guess
edit: no spoons, tomorrow
though I've pretty much only ever seen 'detransitioning' thrown around like 'lying about rape', their existences are both vastly exaggerated and maybe it's not a good idea to consider them very closely! :|a
what kind of advice do you mean, to disregard? because an enormous thing with attempting to medically transitioning is having to adapt yourself to get taken seriously, so you often have to actively disregard what they're telling you purely to get them to actually do you any good. really, wow, I guess you just had excellent experiences or something? it's kind of rare to come across a trans person whose reaction to medical shit isn't 'AAAAAAGH fuck my life'
edit: okay reading jolty's post now I guess
edit: no spoons, tomorrow
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Byrus
Strange days ahead
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- he/him
OK, glad we agree on that. That makes things clearer.
OK, wow no, that is not in any way a good comparison. And yes, I would consider it extremely important to consider them.
A lot of these ex-trans people spoke about pressure to transition because they defied gender norms. I honestly had the same mind-set as you, and thought this was an exaggeration, but the reality is that some people are pressured into identifying as trans because being a masculine woman or a feminine man is looked down on in society. I don't think someone should consider themselves trans just because they defy gender norms, this is a bad mindset and only fuels the assumption that trans folks transition because they like girly things or vice versa. You can be a masculine woman or a feminine man and that should be completely unrelated to being trans.
I just don't think it should be considered offensive or wrong to discuss someone's issues over being trans, and to make sure there aren't any underlying issues (relating to sexism for example). I guess that's my main gripe with the "trans community". Discussion like that is often taken as a personal attack.
I'm mostly talking about medical advice regarding hormones. I've seen a lot of folks encouraging really young and impressionable people to go on and off hormones like they're a beauty treatment. Hormones are extremely serious, and you can't pick and choose what changes you get. A lot of people don't seem to get that.
And yeah, I have had a very good experience with my therapist and medical care, so I admit that I'm probably biased in that regard. I acknowledge that my experience isn't universal, and I am open to hearing the other side of the coin.
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I am going to bed, but this one thing: seriously? there is fucking no-one who's going to pressure someone into being trans rather than being a masculine woman
a feminine man I guess maybe because transmisogyny, but I have to seriously convince people that being trans is a thing that ACTUALLY EXISTS
when kids defy gender norms no parent says 'hmm might be trans! you should call yourself that!' no typical cis person is going to jump at the opportunity to have a nifty trans friend trans people are not fashionable no teacher or boss is going to want to deal with that
maybe gender clinics might and again that is the medical community pulling shit. I can actually totally believe that because nearly all of the experience with gender clinics I've heard is that people are pushed to feel this way and that until they fit.
getting hormones is REALLY HARD how would anyone go through all of that for fashion ?_? you cannot buy T in tesco you have to actively try for years to get these opportunities!
Jolty
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yes there is. it happens more often than you'd think.
be on tumblr for 5 minutes, you will see this does happen. of course parents and actual adults don't think like this but so many people do and it's awful to see.
one kid said they got "pressured by youtube" into taking t and they stopped and started like a bazillion times.
in america people can get them easier if they have money. i heard of one person getting t /after their first appointment with a gender therapist/
it is things like this that are why it is now getting harder to actually help people with the problem.
and people do actually do it for fashion and shit. they say they only want to be on t for a few months to look more androgynous and stuff.
Byrus
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I'm talking about issues in the trans community itself, not the world at large. If you're a masculine woman or a feminine man, then you're automatically regarded as a "queer" or trans, which I think is wrong.
Basically what Jolty said about the therapists. One clinic ended up getting sued due to people detransitioning. I'll try and look for the article.
I really dislike the attitude of blaming everything on medical professionals honestly. There's a lot of misinformation and general bad advice generated by the trans community alone.
I live in America, and this post is bullshit. I tried getting hormones for YEARS. I've spent the last four years -- in therapy albeit not with a gender therapist because I couldn't even get that far -- trying to convince myself I don't need hormones to feel comfortable with my appearance because I will never be able to afford hormones unless I win the lottery or something idk.
All that said, Cirrus is spot-on. If you say you are trans*, you are trans*. We should not be discouraging people who are "curious" (for a lack of a better term), and if someone is really doing it "for fashion" as you say, they will quickly learn how awful trans* people can be treated. Whether it is adopting a new gender identity or correcting a misgiven one, trans* is an umbrella term for a reason.
It doesn't take literally transforming your body to tell the world you don't agree with your assigned gender or gender period or have a fluid gender. You don't have to be dysphoric about your genitals to be dysphoric about gender. You don't have to be dysphoric at all. I am more concerned about my face than what's between my legs because that is typically what causes people to instantly gender me. Sometimes I wish I didn't care about even that but I do and that's okay for me as a trans* person, and it'd also be okay for someone else in my shoes to not care (as a trans* person).
Byrus
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But this attitude is actively encouraging people who defy gender norms to identify as trans. Which in turn, gives the impression that trans people enforce gender norms rather than breaking them down.
I don't see how? That seems very slippery-slopey. Also trans* people can actually be really binarist and promoting of gender norms so I don't see what you're trying to say. "Tomboy", "metrosexual", etc. already exist and don't fall under the trans* umbrella (also it's perfectly OK to be cisgender while challenging gender norms).
Jolty
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there are people who think wearing men's clothes sometimes and wearing women's clothes sometimes makes you genderqueer/bigender
there are (female born) people who think looking/sounding/acting as feminine as possible while just calling yourself male are breaking the gender binary
there was once a guy on tumblr who said he sometimes sort of wished he was a girl so his interests wouldn't be "looked down on"
someone came and told him if he felt like a girl he can be a girl
he said he's not trans and doesn't have dysphoria or anything
they said but you CAN be a girl
there are people who think that you're a terrible person if you don't actively try to bend gender 24/7 and think that all binary trans people are "cis-wannabes" and "truscum". actual words.
there was a thing about how they're just making a new binary, where traditional genders are bad and whatever the fudge they are is good
i could go on
there are (female born) people who think looking/sounding/acting as feminine as possible while just calling yourself male are breaking the gender binary
there was once a guy on tumblr who said he sometimes sort of wished he was a girl so his interests wouldn't be "looked down on"
someone came and told him if he felt like a girl he can be a girl
he said he's not trans and doesn't have dysphoria or anything
they said but you CAN be a girl
there are people who think that you're a terrible person if you don't actively try to bend gender 24/7 and think that all binary trans people are "cis-wannabes" and "truscum". actual words.
there was a thing about how they're just making a new binary, where traditional genders are bad and whatever the fudge they are is good
i could go on