Mega Evolution

[shy ♡]

Specifically, how should it work. There are a lot of ways it can affect things, and ways it can be limited, so I'd like to hear ideas.

Some ideas so far are stat alterations (+1 atk/def -1 speed for example); having to be in battle for x rounds; some out-of-battle requirements to mimic affection in-game... More ideas or your opinion on these are welcome!!

(Note, this is only for discussion of how it should function, not for how it will be made available.)

 

[Lord of the Fireflies]

Well, since the pokémon must be friendly in-game to Mega-Evolve, how about 3-4 happiness points required for Mega evolution?

As for the actual stat boosts, this gets a little trickier. Mega Evolved pokémon are statistically stronger / bulkier / speedier at the cost of being unable to hold an item. The stat bugging me here is the speed: Some megas actually suffer a speed reduction (on the top of my head, Garchomp and Abomasnow) while others receive a significant boost (Beedrill). So if we were to distribute permanent stat boosts, for example, we would have to account for speed, too.

The thing is, attacking and defensive stats have always been relatively unimportant in ASB - even for a pokémon like Alakazam, with an immense disparity between its two attacking stats, either using a physical or special attack wouldn't change anything, unless the referee uses stats in their calculation (very few of them do, back in the days I was the only one to use this I think).

So for example, if you use a Pokémon like Beedrill, giving it +2 in attack and -2 in special attack, it could actually prove as a disadvantage because suddenly, there's a whole bunch of moves that are a lot less viable.

What is the ideal move in this situation, I think, would be to introduce stats relations in normal reffings (for example, Beedrill would begin the battle with (+2|-2|-2|+2), for example), and mega evolution would affect these stats boost, for a total of, let's say +5, with speed taken in account. Beedrill's stats would become (+5|-2|-3|+2) with the speed boost of 70 accounting for the +3 left.

All in all, each +1 added to the total would represent a 20 base boost, approximately, so the boost of +5 would be equal to the 100 base boost in-game. From there, either we calculate every stat change for every Mega Evolution, or we leave that to the referee.

The only thing with this method is that accounting for base stats as the referee is an additional headache, but I have done it in the past, and it's not that bad. It's also more faithful to the nature of the pokémon, in my opinion, and adds more flavour. It's only normal that an Alakazam does more damage with special attacks than physical ones.

Examples:

Altaria: (-1|0|-1|+2|80) -> (+1|+1|+1|+2|80) (Receives +40 atk, +20 def, +40 sp atk in stats, translated as +2 atk, +1 def, +2 sp atk.)

Ampharos: (-1|0|+1|0|55) -> (0|+1|+4|+1|45)

Gallade: (+2|-2|-2|+2|80) -> (+4|0|-2|+2|110)

And so on.

 

[I liek Squirtles]

Will the stat boosts count toward the +/-6 limit? I think they shouldn't.

Maybe have stat modifications that affect the opposing Pokémon as well?

 

[Lord of the Fireflies]

Yes, the stat modifications I wrote about would affect all pokémon and are considered intrinsic; they do not behave like normal stat modifications. For example, they are not affected by Haze and co., cannot be psyched up, etc. You can check my past reffings available on my old ASB profile for a general idea.

Mega Evolutions would only add up to those intrinsic stats.

 

[Meowth]

I'd support the notion of giving mega evos inalienable stat boosts, otherwise some of them aren't going to get any benefit at all; iirc some Pokémon don't even change ability when they mega evolve.

 

[M&F]

The stat boosts are more or less the first that comes to mind when you're regarding Mega Evolution, yes. After all, it is one of the biggest deals about mega evolving. I also don't see how it necessarily necessitates pushing regular Pokémon's stats into the official formulae, frankly.

I'd also think that the stat boosts kind of have to decided on a case-by-case basis rather by any strict adherence to the exact in-game numbers. Most Mega Evolutions gain the same amount of stats total upon Mega Evolving, but not all Mega Evolutions would be equal in ASB. Some gain a more powerful ability than others. And for that matter, some gain a less powerful ability (Mega Slowbro kind of comes to mind but at the same time Shell Armor is actually a fair deal more useful in ASB -- although Oblivious, Own Tempo, and Regenerator all have their niches). And of course, gains or losses in Speed don't mean the same thing in the games that they do in ASB. All in all, bothersome work as though it might be, if we're sticking with stat boosts -- and for that matter, in regards to pretty much any Mega Evolution bonus we decide on -- I think we should start from the things that we're taking directly from the game, and with how balanced they are in ASB, and then decide on the boosts from there.

And if we do go case-by-case, I'm not entirely against some Megas different boosts. Like, no concrete cases come to mind right now, but think specific bonuses (or even penalties, where needed) to go with the flavor. It could get overly complicated fast, but it's not as if everyone will need to know how all the bonuses tick at a given time.

One other thing to consider is that Mega Evolution can't be all advantages. Giving up your held item slot is a disadvantage, but it's much less so in ASB than it is in the games.

 

[shy ♡]

I like the idea of intrinsic stat boosts, but I don't agree with incorporating stats for all reffings. I don't want to add more complexity onto reffing, especially since it would be such a difficult thing to make 100% accurate for every pokemon and every ref - if individual refs do it they can maintain their own er, accuracy, but league-wide stats are just... too complicated.

As for the stats making the pokemon worse - it's pretty easy to just ensure that it ends up with more raised stats than lowered.

I also like the idea of happiness needing to be 3/4... that makes happiness have a function other than just for happy evo requirements, since those are so few.

 

[Phoenixsong]

unless the referee uses stats in their calculation (very few of them do, back in the days I was the only one to use this I think).

Several other people already do account for base stats and have for quite a while, for the record. I've actually had suggestions for doing so on my own reffing scale-guide-thing for years. :p Granted I don't know how often people actually used that part, but to each their own!

As far as costs and balances go—would forcing mega evolution to eat an action on its own work? (Or a round, but that's probably a bit much—it wouldn't be difficult to set yourself up to be quite comfortably on par with/to be able to handle a mega if you had three free actions.) I know that in the games you can mega evolve and attack on the same turn, but since you get three actions per turn in ASB anyway it's not too crippling while still giving your opponent a free move. also in the TCG mega evolution does end your turn so there's totally canon precedent

Also, should it maybe come with an energy cost? 5% or so?

Both of the above are temporary disadvantages that wouldn't set a skilled player back for very long, and I'm not sure how badly they'd need to be permanent disadvantages, but they're a start, I guess.

 

[Negrek]

Yes, I've incorporated base stats in my reffings for quite some time. I also like the idea of inherent, non-interactive stat boosts to represent the increased power of mega forms. I would support positive boosts only, though--make that part of mega evolution all-upside. An inherent +1 to any stat where the base stat goes up after mega-evolving seems reasonable to me; not a huge edge, but definitely an edge. For some megas where a stat goes up by a crazy amount, maybe more than +1, but I think that's a reasonable place to start.

Mega evolution doesn't actually require happiness in-game, but flavor-wise it is supposed to; some kind of restriction would be flavorful, but I could see it just being a hassle to deal with. It also locks newer players out of mega evolution entirely, whereas they'd otherwise be able to do at least mega aerodactyl, mega absol, etc.; depending on how mega stones are distributed, though, that might be a moot point (new players may not be able to get them anyway).

I also like the idea of it taking an action (albeit one that can't be prevented--no flinching, paralysis, confusionfail, etc.) and around 5% energy. The maximum it can provide in boosts is going to be 5% in any case (and I don't know that there are any megas that improve in *all* stats?), which would put it on par with a regular stat booster that raised all stats. Maybe ~7% to account for the fact that the boosts don't fade/can't be swapped or gotten rid of?

 

[nastypass]

I like the idea of permanent stat boosts. The way I'd like it to be distributed it something like a net +3, distributed in different stats on a case by case basis. For something like Mega Beedrill or Mega Banette, this could be a straight up +3 to attack (so ranging from -3 to +9), or for something like Mega Venusaur it would be +1 each to special attack and defenses. Going past +6 is something I'd like to hear thoughts on and I wouldn't mind if we didn't go with that, but I like the idea of having the "default" value for Megas stats be above 0.

I do want to put forward Mega Kangaskhan and Mawile as possible exceptions to this rule though; megamoms already get what amounts to a free 1.5x boost via their ability, and I worry about giving free boosts to things with abilities that are going to multiply them.

 

[Eifie]

I do want to put forward Mega Kangaskhan and Mawile as possible exceptions to this rule though; megamoms already get what amounts to a free 1.5x boost via their ability, and I worry about giving free boosts to things with abilities that are going to multiply them.

Parental Bond's second hit is at one-third the base power and Huge Power is only a 1.2x boost, actually, so it's not quite that dire.

 

[nastypass]

I knew Huge Power was 1.2x, but my concern stands.

 

[Wargle]

Parental Bond's second hit is at one-third the base power and Huge Power is only a 1.2x boost, actually, so it's not quite that dire.

But it still gives a full second boost with Power-Up Punch.

I don't think Mega-Mawile would be as broken here as it is in game.


RE: Stat boosts. Does it make sense? Yes, I see where everyone is coming from, and why it's technically a good idea. But the majority of refs have never used it, and it would complicate things for people.


Besides, you can't say it isn't funny seeing an Abra use Thunderpunch or Machamp using Flamethrower and doing a lot of damage in ASB even though those would do next to nothing in game

 

[ultraviolet]

I like the idea of permanent stat boosts. The way I'd like it to be distributed it something like a net +3, distributed in different stats on a case by case basis. For something like Mega Beedrill or Mega Banette, this could be a straight up +3 to attack (so ranging from -3 to +9), or for something like Mega Venusaur it would be +1 each to special attack and defenses. Going past +6 is something I'd like to hear thoughts on and I wouldn't mind if we didn't go with that, but I like the idea of having the "default" value for Megas stats be above 0.

I really like this idea and I think it fits best into the current ASB system we already have.

I'm really not in favour of pokemon generally being reffed with stats, first of all because it'd probably be a bit of a headache to ref, and secondly i kind of feel like the fun of ASB is that you can use pretty much whatever pokemon you want because stats don't mean anything; the real advantage in ASB is movepool and speed.

 

[Negrek]

As far as I'm aware, anyone talking about reffing with stats isn't talking about comparing one pokémon to another (e.g. abra has lower BST than machamp, so it's worse stat-wise), but comparing stats within the same pokémon (e.g. abra has higher special attack than attack, so it deals more damage with special moves).

 

[Negrek]

It's back! With a huge thanks to Metallica Fanboy and the rest of the mod team who put together this rules proposal; I didn't have anything to do with it.

I thought I'd post the rules draft here so people could voice their opinions on it. Is there anything you'd add, or anything you'd change? Also, the current draft doesn't discuss the magnitude of boosts gained by mega evolving; if you have any thoughts on what you think those should be or how they should be assigned for the various mega forms, please speak up!

Mega Evolution Rules

1. Requirements
A Pokémon can Mega Evolve if all of the following critteria are met:
-The Pokémon is of a species that has a Mega form. Species in the same evolutionary family don't count; it has to be the exact correct species. (thus, Gardevoir and Gallade can Mega Evolve, only to their own respective Mega forms, but Ralts and Kirlia cannot Mega Evolve.)
-The Pokémon's Happiness is 3 or higher.
-The Pokémon's held item is the appropriate Mega Stone.
-All trainers participating in the battle have at least one Pokémon in their active squads that meets all three of the above critteria at the beginning of the battle.
-No Pokémon controlled by the same trainer has already Mega Evolved in this battle (i.e., each trainer can only Mega Evolve a Pokémon under their control once per battle).

Any of these requirements can be disregarded in a given unofficial battle, as long as all trainers participating have explicitly consented to such.

1.1 Exceptions
-Legendary or Mythical Pokémon who can Mega Evolve or undergo Primal Reversion (Mewtwo, Groudon, Kyogre, Latias, Latios, Rayquaza, Diancie) are exempt from the Happiness requirement. Primal Reversion otherwise follows all rules of Mega Evolution, with the appropriate Orb acting as the appropriate Mega Stone.
-Rayquaza is also exempt from the held item requirement and can Mega Evolve to Mega Rayquaza regardless of its held item. However, it can only Mega Evolve in an action immediately after it has used the move Dragon Ascent, and its held item vanishes from the current battle as soon as it has Mega Evolved.

1.2 Mega Stones
Mega Stones behave as any other item if they are being held by a Pokémon that cannot use them to Mega Evolve in the current circumstances (the base power of Fling with a Mega Stone is 30). However, if a Pokémon holding a given Mega Stone can use it to Mega Evolve or has already done so, slightly different rules apply. Mega Stones under those circumstances become strongly attached to their holder by a force that seems almost magnetic, and even practically becomes a part of their holder's own body once the Mega Evolution is triggered; as such, they cannot be removed, alienated or negated by any means -- not by even by the user's own actions.

2. Mega Evolving
Unlike the games, Mega Evolution is a regular command with neutral priority; it isn't done in the beginning of an action, and it's not possible to Mega Evolve and attack in the same action. The act of Mega Evolving must be triggered by command and consumes an action, as well as 5% energy. Additionally, as Mega Evolution follows the regular order of initiative in battle, all of its effects are only granted starting from the exact point in the battle when the Pokémon has Mega Evolved (as such: a Clear Body Metagross's Defense will not be lowered by a move used before it has Mega Evolved, even in the same action; conversely, a Mega form's Defense boosts, if any, will not lower the damage of physical moves used against it before it has Mega Evolved; furthermore, Magic Guard Alakazam will take damage from poisoning or burns at the end of an action that it has Mega Evolved in, unless it Traces an ability that prevents so, and an Early Bird Houndoom Mega Evolving while asleep will have its sleep duration normalized starting from the action of the Mega Evolution. Note also that non-passive boosts granted by Abilities, such as Attack gained by a HA Camerupt's Anger Point or lowered by a Gyarados's Intimidate, will remain even as these Pokémon change abilities upon Mega Evolving). The act of Mega Evolving is entirely unpreventable by external circumstances -- even where a move would normally be prevented by full paralysis, sleep, freezing, confusion failure, flinching, Taunt, etc., a Pokémon attempting to Mega Evolve will not be deterred, and any probability-based move preventions won't even roll against Mega Evolution.

2.1 Mega Form bonuses
While a Pokémon is in their Mega Form, some fixed changes will be made to its attacking and defending stats. These changes bypass the regular limits of boosts and deductions in stats -- so, for example, a Pokémon whose Mega Form gains 2+ Attack can still use Swords Dance three times, up to a walloping total of 8+ Attack (and, conversely, its Attack will never go lower than -4). The changes are specific to each species's own Mega Form. Additionally, some Pokémon will gain a different Ability, type, and/or base speed value when they Mega Evolve.

3. Regarding Signature Moves/Attributes
The ability to Mega Evolve cannot be given via Signature Move/Attribute to any Pokémon that doesn't already have it, and Signature Move/Attributes cannot be used to circumvent the requirements of Mega Evolution for a Pokémon who's capable of meeting them (eg, no Signature Move/Attribute can obviate the need for a Mega Stone to be used for Mega Evolution). However, Signature Moves/Attributes can have very similar effects to Mega Evolution, even openly analogous effects (as long as the approvers consider them sufficiently balanced), and can be given Mega Evolution flavor; this restriction is in place only in order to keep Signature Moves and Signature Attributes mechanically distinct from Mega Evolution proper.

 

[I liek Squirtles]

What constitutes an official battle?

 

[Negrek]

Tournament, event, and quest battles, pretty much. When you make your own challenges, you can set the rules to be basically whatever you want, so e.g. if you're okay with your opponent using a Mega even though you don't have one, it's totally fine.

 

[Eifie]

I may be misreading, but technically doesn't this mean that the quest opponents aren't allowed to mega evolve unless both challengers have a Pokémon capable of mega evolving in their active squad?

I'm kind of disappointed with that requirement, though. Like, if I manage to earn a mega stone, and then can't use the mega version of the Pokémon I invested all the effort into making mega-evolvable in the first place in a tournament battle because my opponent doesn't have a Pokémon that can mega evolve, I'd be pretty sad about it. On the other hand, I don't know how much I'd really want to use that Pokémon in any old unofficial battle.

 

[Sandstone-Shadow]

I could see the "only using a mega if your opponent has one" in unofficial battles being a nice safeguard for newer players - I'm in favor of that. But tournaments and stuff I'd see as fair game.

Is 3 happiness high enough? If you've got enough experience to even have a Charizard, say, you're probably already going to have that easily. I guess it's be different for an Absol, though, who wouldn't need any experience technically. Should the happiness be based on how much the Pokemon would likely have at that point? Or is it okay to like suddenly not only have a Charizard, but a Charizard capable of mega evolving? I guess that's how it works in the games?