Over 80 dead in Norway terrorist attack

[Tarvos]

Oh come on "But they helped the poor people in Africa by giving them food!" rhetoric.

No, no, no. They give them food, but they don't teach them how to get their own food. Furthermore they indoctrinate them into religion which means HIV is still an issue, gay rights are crap in Africa, etc, etc...

Seriously, if people believe privately in religion and derive consolation (how that proves God's existence is beyond me, but if people get strength from fairytales, more power to them), but whatever "charity" (which is shit btw - charity is an excuse for not teaching people to be self-sufficient).


That argument doesn't fly. Religion causes too much shit for that particular bit of charity (which may or may not have been useful, whatever). Sure, I might throw out some bathwater then, but all in all that bit of charity and goodness I throw out doesn't even marginally weigh up to the benefits of not having religion in our political systems.

 

[Saith]

Oh come on "But they helped the poor people in Africa by giving them food!" rhetoric.

No, no, no. They give them food, but they don't teach them how to get their own food. Furthermore they indoctrinate them into religion which means HIV is still an issue, gay rights are crap in Africa, etc, etc...

Seriously, if people believe privately in religion and derive consolation (how that proves God's existence is beyond me, but if people get strength from fairytales, more power to them), but whatever "charity" (which is shit btw - charity is an excuse for not teaching people to be self-sufficient).


That argument doesn't fly. Religion causes too much shit for that particular bit of charity (which may or may not have been useful, whatever). Sure, I might throw out some bathwater then, but all in all that bit of charity and goodness I throw out doesn't even marginally weigh up to the benefits of not having religion in our political systems.

Uhhhhh teaching someone to be self-sufficient would still be charitable, jsyk.
And, you know, I don't think anybody mentioned Africa. Self-sufficiency isn't always what's needed. The Red Cross are those guys who, you know, go to places like Japan after the tsunamequake and shit, and the Samaritans are people who help with suicidal depression, as well as helping people with drug problems.
There are also things like the Vatican adoption-agencies which, while not allowing gay couples to adopt, still... You know... Took children in and cared for them!

No one here's suggesting theocracy, hell, I'm all for secularism, but going on and on about how all religion is terrible is... Well, it's pretty intolerant to say the least.

 

[Tarvos]

I'm not tolerant of a belief in fairytales that has claimed the lives of millions. Forgive me for being close-minded.

Sure, the Church has done a few good deeds (and asked for obscene amounts of money from its followers to do them... which leads the the Church being rich and all its followers poor as all hell).

But if I make up the balance - all I see is: war, poverty, bigotry, racism, unsafe health practices, murder, kidnapping, terrible morality, and so on and so forth.

I'm pretty sure that without religion, someone else that is kind would find it in the bottom of their hearts to create a good cause. I'm not that cynical.

 

[Dannichu]

Ideas around belief completely aside, lots of people find the communal aspects of religion really positive. Sociologically speaking, lots of religious events - singing, the sense of belonging, worship of a being you've collectively put on a pedestal - is exactly why music concerts and festivals are so popular. Humans need things like that in their lives, and if they find happiness there, who are you (or anyone) to deny them?

I had a talk with a nice woman in Cardiff this afternoon about how Ramadan's starting soon, and how observing it gives her a chance to become more healthy, practice self-restraint, think more about where her food comes from, to eat together with her family and connect with her wider community. God wasn't mentioned once. No, you don't need religion to do any of those things, but it helps people, and I don't get why that's a bad thing.

 

[Crazy Linoone]

No one said otherwise. It's just the fact of the matter is that religion is really good at encouraging it.

Eh, I feel like religion is a lot better at encouraging bad things (Crusades, 9/11, etc etc).

Unless we're talking about Buddhism, which I agree.

EDIT: Got ninja'd by Dannichu, of all people :o The problem I have with religion isn't the cultural aspects (because culture is cool and awesome and we should have more of it), but more of the "it drives people into doing crazy things like killing people who don't agree with them" parts. I suppose we should probably separate the words "religion", "belief", and "organized religion" so we don't argue about different things?

 

[Saith]

Unless we're talking about Buddhism, which I agree.

Haha yeah, 'cause it's not like the Dalai Lama advocates slavery and wants the old Tibet back where him and his priestly pals lived in a gigantic palace and where every body else were nothing more than serfs or anything, noseree.
Buddhism is actually just as bad as every other religion and just as good, too.

EDIT: Got ninja'd by Dannichu, of all people :o The problem I have with religion isn't the cultural aspects (because culture is cool and awesome and we should have more of it), but more of the "it drives people into doing crazy things like killing people who don't agree with them" parts. I suppose we should probably separate the words "religion", "belief", and "organized religion" so we don't argue about different things?

But it's... It's not really religion or belief or organized religion that causes something like this. It's Loyalty. He was fanatically loyal to whatever he was fanatically loyal to, and did horrible deeds.
There are so many horrible things that happen, but none are really because of religion. They maybe in a specific religion's name, and they may be orchestrated by a religious person, but the real motivation is loyalty.
Patriotism, money and love have killed just as many people as religion.

 

[Crazy Linoone]

Haha yeah, 'cause it's not like the Dalai Lama advocates slavery and wants the old Tibet back where him and his priestly pals lived in a gigantic palace and where every body else were nothing more than serfs or anything, noseree.
Buddhism is actually just as bad as every other religion and just as good, too.

Eh, I was more talking about the Buddhist scriptures. Last time I checked, they didn't advocate killing (although I must admit that I haven't read through all of them and therefore my information is incomplete, so I take that back if there are stuff in there that advocates not-very-good-ness.)

But it's... It's not really religion or belief or organized religion that causes something like this. It's Loyalty. He was fanatically loyal to whatever he was fanatically loyal to, and did horrible deeds.
There are so many horrible things that happen, but none are really because of religion. They maybe in a specific religion's name, and they may be orchestrated by a religious person, but the real motivation is loyalty.
Patriotism, money and love have killed just as many people as religion.

True that. But if there's one less thing to be loyal to, or at least if the thing that a person is loyal to is mostly good, then there would be fewer bad fanatics.

 

[Phantom]

But it's... It's not really religion or belief or organized religion that causes something like this. It's Loyalty. He was fanatically loyal to whatever he was fanatically loyal to, and did horrible deeds.
There are so many horrible things that happen, but none are really because of religion. They maybe in a specific religion's name, and they may be orchestrated by a religious person, but the real motivation is loyalty.
Patriotism, money and love have killed just as many people as religion.

I said it earlier and I will say it again. Faith, mainly blind faith, is one of the most dangerous poisons in this world.

As one of my favorite writers said:

“Some beliefs are so dangerous that it may be ethical to kill people for believing them.” -The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason,Sam Harris.

EDIT: Also noticed. Isn't it interesting that every debate we have comes back to issues with religion? Just sayin'.

 

[Butterfree]

“Some beliefs are so dangerous that it may be ethical to kill people for believing them.” -The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason,Sam Harris.

Well, nice job convincing me Sam Harris is nuts.

 

[Phantom]

... He's being sarcastic...

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Haha yeah, 'cause it's not like the Dalai Lama advocates slavery and wants the old Tibet back where him and his priestly pals lived in a gigantic palace and where every body else were nothing more than serfs or anything, noseree.
Buddhism is actually just as bad as every other religion and just as good, too.

Right, so here you criticise the whole of a religion for what one of its adherents does in its name...

But it's... It's not really religion or belief or organized religion that causes something like this. It's Loyalty. He was fanatically loyal to whatever he was fanatically loyal to, and did horrible deeds.
There are so many horrible things that happen, but none are really because of religion. They maybe in a specific religion's name, and they may be orchestrated by a religious person, but the real motivation is loyalty.
Patriotism, money and love have killed just as many people as religion.

...and here you argue against Crazy Linoone criticising the whole of religion by saying that its not the religion that's at fault but what its adherents are doing in its name. Make up your mind, you can't have both.

 

[Saith]

Right, so here you criticise the whole of a religion for what one of its adherents does in its name...



...and here you argue against Crazy Linoone criticising the whole of religion by saying that its not the religion that's at fault but what its adherents are doing in its name. Make up your mind, you can't have both.

Linoone said that religion is bad because its adherents do bad things in its name, except for Buddhism. I just ~enlightened~ her as to why, if she believes that a religion is bad for what people do in its name, then Buddhism isn't exempt from that.

And, well, I get my jollies from arguing against people, and so i usually need to play Devil's Advocate.

I don't think I've ever argued for my own opinions on these forums before. Weird, huh?

 

[Tarvos]

Ideas around belief completely aside, lots of people find the communal aspects of religion really positive. Sociologically speaking, lots of religious events - singing, the sense of belonging, worship of a being you've collectively put on a pedestal - is exactly why music concerts and festivals are so popular. Humans need things like that in their lives, and if they find happiness there, who are you (or anyone) to deny them?

I am not denying a need for community. But you can have communities without congregating for some fairytale - while separating fact from fiction. I don't see how this defends religion, in other words - surely something less pernicious gives the same community feeling without acting as a catalyst for blind faith?

I had a talk with a nice woman in Cardiff this afternoon about how Ramadan's starting soon, and how observing it gives her a chance to become more healthy, practice self-restraint, think more about where her food comes from, to eat together with her family and connect with her wider community. God wasn't mentioned once. No, you don't need religion to do any of those things, but it helps people, and I don't get why that's a bad thing.

It's not a bad end result, but it's still - on principle - you should have this self determination anyway! To me it's like accepting you need a fairy just because otherwise you will psychologically not be able to achieve goals xyz. And I am a firm believer in the fact that if we set our minds to be a bit more disciplined, then we can do without God. I don't see how the benefits of this stack up.

 

[spaekle]

Sup, I'm pretty anti-religion and whatnot myself but I really just wanted to post this 'cause I thought it'd be appreciated here.

A married lesbian couple saved 40 teenagers from the terrorist attack and it's gotten next to no media attention. :(