Zero Moment
Vinyl Scratch
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Tarot Mafia
- Thread starter Vipera Magnifica
- Start date
Zero Moment
Vinyl Scratch
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- He
Vipera Magnifica
Aquatic Artiste
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- he/him
Novae
am i nothing but stars to you?
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- she/xe/star
not really, one of the five non-scum that flipped not n0 could be a 3p
Mr. Ultracool
Blasts off at the speed of light!
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- he
Unvote
JackPK
blame telegram
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- he/him
oh I was counting 3p among "non-town"
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- she/her
Pondering arcana. It's worth considering whether the mafia would consist of arcana that might flavorwise fit the bill for being evil, as in Cats (2019), or do we think they're entirely randomly assigned? In the former case, I think we should be suspicious of the flavorcop, because the mafia would probably need flavor fakeclaims, and a flavor cop would be a mechanical way for them to learn some (if they then kill the person); in the latter, we should expect roles to not necessarily line up with the assigned arcana.
I think the evidence we have so far seems to point towards the former:
- Trebek, our flipped mafia, claimed to be the Devil. Obviously we can't know if this is true, but it would've been a risk for him to lie about the arcana and expose himself to a counterclaim, so it seems not all too unlikely that this was his real arcana - and it's pretty evil-sounding.
- RNP, our other dead scum, was the Tower. That doesn't by itself sound that evil but Googling suggests that in Tarot it's an omen of disaster. So that's two for two on scum having 'evil' arcana.
- The active claims that we have for living players right now, by contrast, are all innocuous-sounding arcana: the Hermit, the Emperor, the Fool, the High Priestess, the Magician, Justice, Wheel of Fortune, and the Sun (I couldn't find an arcana claim for Stryke, just a role claim; did I miss it?). M&F was the Moon. I can't quite remember if other dead people had revealed arcana, but I'm pretty sure nobody else has claimed ominous arcana. All in all it seems like an unlikely coincidence for the only two ominous arcana in the game to be exactly the scum that happen to be dead right now.
- Moreover, most arcana claims are pretty clearly thematically connected to their roles. The High Priestess being an oracle? Well, yeah. Justice affecting lynches pretty obviously checks out. Wheel of Fortune giving out items, yeah. Emperor as governor, makes sense.
- THUS: probably some players have ominous arcana but have fakeclaimed other arcana (presumably because they are scum).
The odd claims out are probably Keldeo's (the Fool as item thief) and storm's (the Magician as flavorcop), neither of which seem obviously related to the arcana at all (I can see the Hermit as a doctor, just about). But that's probably not very ironclad.
I'd like to do a bit of ISOing but I think this is definitely a lead.
I think the evidence we have so far seems to point towards the former:
- Trebek, our flipped mafia, claimed to be the Devil. Obviously we can't know if this is true, but it would've been a risk for him to lie about the arcana and expose himself to a counterclaim, so it seems not all too unlikely that this was his real arcana - and it's pretty evil-sounding.
- RNP, our other dead scum, was the Tower. That doesn't by itself sound that evil but Googling suggests that in Tarot it's an omen of disaster. So that's two for two on scum having 'evil' arcana.
- The active claims that we have for living players right now, by contrast, are all innocuous-sounding arcana: the Hermit, the Emperor, the Fool, the High Priestess, the Magician, Justice, Wheel of Fortune, and the Sun (I couldn't find an arcana claim for Stryke, just a role claim; did I miss it?). M&F was the Moon. I can't quite remember if other dead people had revealed arcana, but I'm pretty sure nobody else has claimed ominous arcana. All in all it seems like an unlikely coincidence for the only two ominous arcana in the game to be exactly the scum that happen to be dead right now.
- Moreover, most arcana claims are pretty clearly thematically connected to their roles. The High Priestess being an oracle? Well, yeah. Justice affecting lynches pretty obviously checks out. Wheel of Fortune giving out items, yeah. Emperor as governor, makes sense.
- THUS: probably some players have ominous arcana but have fakeclaimed other arcana (presumably because they are scum).
The odd claims out are probably Keldeo's (the Fool as item thief) and storm's (the Magician as flavorcop), neither of which seem obviously related to the arcana at all (I can see the Hermit as a doctor, just about). But that's probably not very ironclad.
I'd like to do a bit of ISOing but I think this is definitely a lead.
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- she/her
(Note that although I pointed to claims that don't quite match their arcana, obviously it'd be entirely possible for a mafia member to fakeclaim a role/arcana combination that just sounds like it makes sense.)
Wild guess pre-ISO scumteam, based on associations and backed-up claims: Keldeo/storm/Ultracool/Mist?
Wild guess pre-ISO scumteam, based on associations and backed-up claims: Keldeo/storm/Ultracool/Mist?
- Pronoun
- she/her
It's pretty weird, but the fact I claimed first and then Jack makes it harder for me to think he's lying than the other way around? Like, he could have just not counterclaimed me. It wouldn't have been too hard to build a case on me without doing so, I think, if that's what they were going for? And Jack hasn't been that aggressive in going after me for it either, like he's kind of willing to believe maybe we do just coexist?
I do admit that with our roles being closer than I originally thought it is kind of weird both would exist in the same game. Originally when he claimed I figured well, our roles are fairly different in function even if we can both prevent a lynch, so maybe that's reasonable. But it seems that actually the only difference is that I can prevent a lynch before the vote is agreed on and he can prevent it after it, and that really is a funny combination to have, especially on the same side. (Which is frustrating for me, because if we were different alignments and both telling the truth about our roles, my variant absolutely sounds more like it would be the mafia-aligned one! Mafia being able to invisibly stop a lynch after the vote would be kind of OP, but mafia being able to discreetly lynchproof a mafia member but at the cost of having to publicly defend them in the thread - I'm not going to say my actual trigger phrase in case it counts and wastes it, but it's just a phrase similar to "Let's not lynch [the person I want to lynchproof]" - would totally be a fun and interesting mafia role. I wish I were mafia with this role.)
I gueeeess if I think about it I can imagine a mafia motivation for Jack to play it like this. Like, he doesn't want to get lynched himself, so he figured he'd gamble on doing only a partial counterclaim, so that if the thread seems to believe him more than me he can press it harder, and if the thread believes me more than him he can kind of shrug it off and minimize it. It's also a comparatively safe way to fakeclaim - you know you won't get a townie suddenly counterclaiming you if you're the one counterclaiming a townie. So hmm, yeah, maybe. But I've felt good about Jack overall over the course of the game so he's not where I really want to look first.
I do admit that with our roles being closer than I originally thought it is kind of weird both would exist in the same game. Originally when he claimed I figured well, our roles are fairly different in function even if we can both prevent a lynch, so maybe that's reasonable. But it seems that actually the only difference is that I can prevent a lynch before the vote is agreed on and he can prevent it after it, and that really is a funny combination to have, especially on the same side. (Which is frustrating for me, because if we were different alignments and both telling the truth about our roles, my variant absolutely sounds more like it would be the mafia-aligned one! Mafia being able to invisibly stop a lynch after the vote would be kind of OP, but mafia being able to discreetly lynchproof a mafia member but at the cost of having to publicly defend them in the thread - I'm not going to say my actual trigger phrase in case it counts and wastes it, but it's just a phrase similar to "Let's not lynch [the person I want to lynchproof]" - would totally be a fun and interesting mafia role. I wish I were mafia with this role.)
I gueeeess if I think about it I can imagine a mafia motivation for Jack to play it like this. Like, he doesn't want to get lynched himself, so he figured he'd gamble on doing only a partial counterclaim, so that if the thread seems to believe him more than me he can press it harder, and if the thread believes me more than him he can kind of shrug it off and minimize it. It's also a comparatively safe way to fakeclaim - you know you won't get a townie suddenly counterclaiming you if you're the one counterclaiming a townie. So hmm, yeah, maybe. But I've felt good about Jack overall over the course of the game so he's not where I really want to look first.
Keldeo
Resolute
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- he, they
Oh, I guess I should probably claim fully atp. My dog steals items, and being The Fool is more closely related to my other/primary role: I can follow my heart, be a free spirit, and leave the game (i.e. cause my own death) by posting a certain phrase in the thread. Apparently this is helpful because if I'm a leading wagon it essentially gives town a double yeet at the cost of one of them (me) being town. But obviously I'm never going to be using this now.
MF being the moon / cop indicate to me that magician / flavor cop probably is also probably plausible as a combination? I dunno.
I'm really lost and don't really feel like playing mafia until probably tonight, sorry.
This was my soft, since the role is called Quitter on the MafiaScum wiki.
MF being the moon / cop indicate to me that magician / flavor cop probably is also probably plausible as a combination? I dunno.
I'm really lost and don't really feel like playing mafia until probably tonight, sorry.
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Okay this is really giving me flashbacks to Cats (2019) mafia where mafia!Keldeo also claimed to have softed a role because he said something completely innocuous that there's no reason to think wasn't simply a coincidence.
Why do you get to have a dog? Why would this be a thing? Is the Fool somehow associated with dogs? This almost sounds too fake to be fake.
Keldeo
Resolute
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- he, they
Haha, I knew someone would bring that up. I probably should have been a bit more obvious about it, but that was literally my first post.
Many portrayals of the fool tarot card, including the well-known Rider-Waite deck and presumably the deck from which my PM image was taken, have a small dog.
Keldeo
Resolute
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- he, they
I don't know why I said presumably, the image does indeed have a small dog.
To give context to my level of empty-headedness right now I actually could not remember whether I had already claimed and had to ISO myself to check. So I'm going to come back to the thread when I feel I can be more productive.
To give context to my level of empty-headedness right now I actually could not remember whether I had already claimed and had to ISO myself to check. So I'm going to come back to the thread when I feel I can be more productive.
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Oh, hmm. I guess, but it still feels kind of weird to just give you two abilities, especially when if anything I'd have expected the item thief to be the primary one in that combination (after all, you'd spend most of the game using that power?).
It also occurs to me as I ISO Keldeo that while he has been casting doubt on Ultracool's claim in a way that should make it extremely unlikely Ultracool is telling the truth from his POV, he hasn't actually been pushing for his execution. He tried to use his saying he didn't receive an item from Ultracool as a reason why they couldn't be mafia together, yet doesn't actually seem very convinced Ultracool is mafia. I admit I'm not sure I'm 100% up-to-date on what he's actually claiming now, since he ended up saying he'd actually targeted Stryke and not Ultracool; is your claim that you targeted Ultracool N0 and Stryke N1?
It also occurs to me as I ISO Keldeo that while he has been casting doubt on Ultracool's claim in a way that should make it extremely unlikely Ultracool is telling the truth from his POV, he hasn't actually been pushing for his execution. He tried to use his saying he didn't receive an item from Ultracool as a reason why they couldn't be mafia together, yet doesn't actually seem very convinced Ultracool is mafia. I admit I'm not sure I'm 100% up-to-date on what he's actually claiming now, since he ended up saying he'd actually targeted Stryke and not Ultracool; is your claim that you targeted Ultracool N0 and Stryke N1?
Keldeo
Resolute
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- he, they
Yeah - I targeted ZM n0, UC n1, and Stryke n2.
Butterfree, I'm asking this without any... implications, I guess? - why should it have been unlikely to me that Mr. Ultracool was telling the truth? iirc, the two situations that I laid out were either I got roleblocked on night 1 or otherwise stopped from visiting him, which seemed like a distinct possibility, or he was just lying. It always just seemed like the smarter move to wait until someone could/would confirm it, particularly because I thought that Trebek's posting looked fairly good for him.
Now that hasn't happened, but also Mist's claim about an item giver exists. I guess now the three situations I'm looking at are like... Mist v/UC v (based on Mist's claim); Mist v/UC w (where maybe UC rolecopped rari or something, then claimed their role?); and Mist w/UC w (where Mist is defending their partner to push through someone else. I know I cleared Mist earlier for not just saying that there weren't items in the game or something, but now I feel a little wary about it because they haven't been around that much.) I don't think Mist w/UC v makes a ton of sense here because I think Mist would just push UC. This is where "v" means just "not mafia", i.e. could also be third party.
I guess this might be how I would treat UC if he were my mafia partner? idk. I just don't see why I wouldn't buttress his claim and continue to hard defend him tbh. If he's mafia, I'd think his partners have claimed non-targeting abilities, to Stryke's point about no one supporting his claim in that way.
Butterfree, I'm asking this without any... implications, I guess? - why should it have been unlikely to me that Mr. Ultracool was telling the truth? iirc, the two situations that I laid out were either I got roleblocked on night 1 or otherwise stopped from visiting him, which seemed like a distinct possibility, or he was just lying. It always just seemed like the smarter move to wait until someone could/would confirm it, particularly because I thought that Trebek's posting looked fairly good for him.
Now that hasn't happened, but also Mist's claim about an item giver exists. I guess now the three situations I'm looking at are like... Mist v/UC v (based on Mist's claim); Mist v/UC w (where maybe UC rolecopped rari or something, then claimed their role?); and Mist w/UC w (where Mist is defending their partner to push through someone else. I know I cleared Mist earlier for not just saying that there weren't items in the game or something, but now I feel a little wary about it because they haven't been around that much.) I don't think Mist w/UC v makes a ton of sense here because I think Mist would just push UC. This is where "v" means just "not mafia", i.e. could also be third party.
I guess this might be how I would treat UC if he were my mafia partner? idk. I just don't see why I wouldn't buttress his claim and continue to hard defend him tbh. If he's mafia, I'd think his partners have claimed non-targeting abilities, to Stryke's point about no one supporting his claim in that way.